Criticism For Both Christians And Atheists

[NoOne]

Okay so I think I've found my thought-provoking discussion

I have been thinking about certain ideas, beliefs, and behavior within the Christian and atheist communities (having been a borderline fundamentalist Christian to an agnosticand I've thought about what I do like and what I don't like. I'm a pretty analytical person, I would say. I think about the cons and what could be improved and how. I would like to see how this will go and how people react, if they think the critiques I give are validated or not. So here we go...

 

Since I'm now an agnostic atheist, it's only fair to start with atheism. I like lists, so I'll do a list

1) I hate whenever I see someone thank God for something or want to pray and then an atheist says "God's not real" or something about talking to an imaginary sky daddy. I remember a 9/11 survivor praising God for allowing him to get out of the South Tower moments before it collapsed and how atheists kept saying how it was so ironic and selfish of him. I'm not an anti-theist and most of my family and friends are religious, so I maybe don't feel as strongly as some of you guys do. Whenever someone thanks God, there's no need to crush them. If that's what gets them through the day and gives them hope, it's fine by me. As long as they don't force it on anyone else or feel the need to evangelize or make laws based on their faith, the usual stuff, it's their right to believe what they want without being insulted all the time.

2) It kind of goes with #1 in some ways. There's no need to be so aggressive when it comes to disagreeing with religion or telling others you're atheist. In my honest opinion, you look arrogant and full of it when you're in a minority (which is underrepresented and somewhat hated) and you so angrily confess that everyone else is "dumb" or " deluded". Word choice is everything. I'm not saying keep quiet or be passive, oh hell no. But don't be so aggressive! Assertive yet open is the best approach in my opinion.

3) I rarely ever hear about atheist organizations doing charity work in order to help other countries. I hear about this all the time with Christians. I know said organizations are more about atheist representation, debates, and the rising number of people who are becoming atheists. But it starts to look like a first world problem when we do nothing to help anyone else around the world, be it hungry people, homeless people, or even persecuted atheists in fundamentalist countries.

 

So that's it for atheists, at the moment. Now onto Christians. I'll try not to give you more to be fair but that's probably not going to happen. #1 and #2 for the atheists also apply to you by the way.

1) The way you treat non-Christians and the LGBTQ+ community is disgusting. I feel like everyone knows about this already, so I won't go into great detail. But I find this ironic, considering how Jesus said "love thy neighbor as yourself".

2) if someone disagrees with you, or gives an LGBTQ+ person rights, or thinks that it's not fair when people generalize all Muslims, then that's not persecution. The majority cannot be persecuted, that's basic sociology. I'm talking about Christians in the USA, since I live here and 80% of the country is Christian. I know Christians are definitely persecuted in other fundamentalist or tyrannical governments and countries. But when you're the majority and everything always goes your way an us in your favor, you can't possibly be persecuted.

3) The logical fallacies and arguing from emotionally-appealing, faith-based lines of thinking need to stop. The logical fallacies Christians tend to use the most are the "no true Scotsman" and the "burden of proof". Christians make the claim that a god exists therefore you need to prove it, not the people who don't believe your claim. And it doesn't matter if a super fundie right-winger and a gay, progressive Christian don't agree and have different views. They're both Christians and supposed to believe the same key concepts so there isn't supposed to be some huge divide. Whenever I see a Christian and atheist debate, there's a reason the atheist always wins. They make objective arguments based on objective observations. The Christians make subjective arguments based on a book not everyone believes in, expecting to change everyone's opinions. You can't make an personal argument based on your faith and think that you'll change a non-Christian's mind.

 

Whew...okay I'm done. I'd honestly prefer if Christians respond to the Christian criticisms only and the atheists to the atheist ones only. I don't want others adding onto the criticisms and blowing everything up. But it'll probably happen and if it does, that's okay.

So what do you think? Thanks and have a good day ❤️❤️❤️

[florduh]

To points 1 and 2, I agree that it's not necessary to always point out that someone has just prayed to a nonexistent god or that their beliefs are silly. Live and let live.

 

As to point 3:

 

3) I rarely ever hear about atheist organizations doing charity work in order to help other countries. I hear about this all the time with Christians. I know said organizations are more about atheist representation, debates, and the rising number of people who are becoming atheists. But it starts to look like a first world problem when we do nothing to help anyone else around the world, be it hungry people, homeless people, or even persecuted atheists in fundamentalist countries. 

 

Remember that atheists are not organized into large groups that collect money every week and get tax breaks. Atheists have no agenda to sell as an add-on to any good works. Atheists are more independent by nature than religious folks. There ARE atheist (and other non-Christian/secular) charities and considering the small size of the atheist community and comparatively limited resources available I think we are probably fairly represented in our charity work. 

[mymistake]

1) I hate whenever I see someone thank God for something or want to pray and then an atheist says "God's not real" or something about talking to an imaginary sky daddy. I remember a 9/11 survivor praising God for allowing him to get out of the South Tower moments before it collapsed and how atheists kept saying how it was so ironic and selfish of him. I'm not an anti-theist and most of my family and friends are religious, so I maybe don't feel as strongly as some of you guys do. Whenever someone thanks God, there's no need to crush them. If that's what gets them through the day and gives them hope, it's fine by me. As long as they don't force it on anyone else or feel the need to evangelize or make laws based on their faith, the usual stuff, it's their right to believe what they want without being insulted all the time.

2) It kind of goes with #1 in some ways. There's no need to be so aggressive when it comes to disagreeing with religion or telling others you're atheist. In my honest opinion, you look arrogant and full of it when you're in a minority (which is underrepresented and somewhat hated) and you so angrily confess that everyone else is "dumb" or " deluded". Word choice is everything. I'm not saying keep quiet or be passive, oh hell no. But don't be so aggressive! Assertive yet open is the best approach in my opinion.

 

When does that ever happen?  If anybody I know in real life is an atheist they keep it a secret.  So far I have only told my wife, parents and son.  So nobody else even knows I'm an atheist.  I suppose if I met somebody trying to be a preacher about atheism I might offer him a kind word of advise.  Usually conflicts only happen in private, usually because theist relatives have been trying to indoctrinate someone for an entire lifetime.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument

 

http://www.goodreasonblog.com/2010/05/tone-trolls.html

 

 

[TheOutsider]

Okay so I think I've found my thought-provoking discussion

I have been thinking about certain ideas, beliefs, and behavior within the Christian and atheist communities (having been a borderline fundamentalist Christian to an agnosticand I've thought about what I do like and what I don't like. I'm a pretty analytical person, I would say. I think about the cons and what could be improved and how. I would like to see how this will go and how people react, if they think the critiques I give are validated or not. So here we go...

 

Since I'm now an agnostic atheist, it's only fair to start with atheism. I like lists, so I'll do a list

 

1) I hate whenever I see someone thank God for something or want to pray and then an atheist says "God's not real" or something about talking to an imaginary sky daddy. I remember a 9/11 survivor praising God for allowing him to get out of the South Tower moments before it collapsed and how atheists kept saying how it was so ironic and selfish of him. I'm not an anti-theist and most of my family and friends are religious, so I maybe don't feel as strongly as some of you guys do. Whenever someone thanks God, there's no need to crush them.

Okay, channeling TAA 24/7 could get annoying, but I have no problem with it if that's how someone want's to present themselves. We need people that are willing to point out the absurdities and not be willing to let a little hurt feeling or two stop them.

 

Personally if I was that survivor I could probably come up with a pretty long list of people to thank and god/Jesus wouldn't be anywhere on it, though I would credit someone named Jesus if they made the list, I'm not that petty.

 

If that's what gets them through the day and gives them hope, it's fine by me. As long as they don't force it on anyone else or feel the need to evangelize or make laws based on their faith, the usual stuff, it's their right to believe what they want without being insulted all the time.

 I agree, if they are keeping it to themselves, if they aren't forcing it on anyone else, if they aren't trying to construct a theocracy, they shouldn't be bothered. The problem is the whole monastery monk thing doesn't seem to be that appealing to most theists, so they force it on their kids, and preach it to whoever they can while not keeping it to themselves.

 

But maybe my judgement is clouded here, maybe I'm not seeing things clearly, maybe I'm overreacting. I admit, religion pisses me off.

 

2) It kind of goes with #1 in some ways. There's no need to be so aggressive when it comes to disagreeing with religion or telling others you're atheist. In my honest opinion, you look arrogant and full of it when you're in a minority (which is underrepresented and somewhat hated) and you so angrily confess that everyone else is "dumb" or " deluded". Word choice is everything. I'm not saying keep quiet or be passive, oh hell no. But don't be so aggressive! Assertive yet open is the best approach in my opinion.

Again, if that's how someone want's to present themselves, I have no problem with it.

 

Aggression is a method of expressing anger, anger, usually in this case from pain that was caused by religion. Sometimes it's just cathartic to go ape-shit on the stupid bullshit people believe in, especially when their beliefs are doing harm to others. Sometimes, you just need to rage a little (or a lot) before you can calm down.

 

And besides, religious folk are kind of deluded. Some are dumb, though I wouldn't make that judgement without any reason, and I'd probably keep it to myself unless asked. But there are also plenty of intelligent people that happen to believe some pretty stupid shit.

 

With all that being said, I also don't have a problem with however you want to present yourself, there are plenty of methods to choose from for expressing yourself, you're free to pick whatever fits. That's the great thing about atheism, it basically consists of a heard of cats that all agree on not believing in gods. That's it.

 

3) I rarely ever hear about atheist organizations doing charity work in order to help other countries. I hear about this all the time with Christians. I know said organizations are more about atheist representation, debates, and the rising number of people who are becoming atheists. But it starts to look like a first world problem when we do nothing to help anyone else around the world, be it hungry people, homeless people, or even persecuted atheists in fundamentalist countries.

For three, I'll point back to what florduh posted.

 

And I'd point out the Gates foundation and Foundation Beyond Belief, atheistic and/or secular charities exist, though I'd suspect they are more focused on what they are supposed to be doing and less on advertizing or preaching atheism. And charity work probably isn't within the scope of operations for organizations that are trying to spread free thought and rationality while challenging religion, anyway.

 

 

That's my two cents.

The Thinking Atheist podcast episode 190 might be relevant, or at least worth a listen.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

The biggest secular charity in the world is the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent (IFRC).

 

The only reason they have a cross in their symbol is because it is an inverted Swiss flag, where they were founded.  Their core principles require complete neutrality with regard to religious beliefs.  They are humanists, first and foremost.

 

There is huge demand for non-religious charities to donate to.  A good example is the charity set up by Richard Dawkins and friends in the wake of the Haiti earthquake.

[mwc]

     I don't know exactly what an atheist charity would be exactly.  Would they only give you food, clothing or medicine upon hearing someone evangelize about atheism?  Doesn't that sort of conflict with points 1 and 2?

 

     Personally, I don't want, need nor desire a central "atheist" authority telling people about what it is to be atheist.  Once you lack belief in gods...you've arrived.  Go live your life.

 

          mwc

[FreeThinkerNZ]

     I don't know exactly what an atheist charity would be exactly.  Would they only give you food, clothing or medicine upon hearing someone evangelize about atheism?  Doesn't that sort of conflict with points 1 and 2?

 

     Personally, I don't want, need nor desire a central "atheist" authority telling people about what it is to be atheist.  Once you lack belief in gods...you've arrived.  Go live your life.

 

          mwc

Totally agree, atheism is just a lack of belief in gods, and after that we are as diverse as people get.  Secular charities simply provide an option that gives some assurance that religion won't be included in the aid.  I don't think statistics have been compiled, but I would love to know what proportion of aid is secular... I suspect it is quite large... which will one day show that humans don't need religion to make them want to help each other.

[Geezer]

Actions and words that are intended to ignite emotions and fuel controversy are common when people are passionate about some belief they have. That reality crosses a lot of social boundaries. The more passionate the belief the more likely the person holding that belief will project extremist views, and do things most people would define as extreme and sometimes even bizarre.

 

Any belief that is based primarily on emotion can get out of hand quickly and wander off into the realm of extremism. When passionate believers or atheists clash a resulting explosion is almost a certainty. Fortunately, most believers and non-believers are not in that category. Most people tend to mind their own business and try to avoid controversy and contentious situations as much as possible.

[NoOne]

Still no Christians?

[sdelsolray]

...

1) I hate whenever I see someone thank God for something or want to pray and then an atheist says "God's not real" or something about talking to an imaginary sky daddy. I remember a 9/11 survivor praising God for allowing him to get out of the South Tower moments before it collapsed and how atheists kept saying how it was so ironic and selfish of him. I'm not an anti-theist and most of my family and friends are religious, so I maybe don't feel as strongly as some of you guys do. Whenever someone thanks God, there's no need to crush them. If that's what gets them through the day and gives them hope, it's fine by me. As long as they don't force it on anyone else or feel the need to evangelize or make laws based on their faith, the usual stuff, it's their right to believe what they want without being insulted all the time.

...

 

Anytime a theist praises their chosen deit(ies) in public constitutes evangelizing.  They have every right to do so, of course, and I see nothing wrong or inappropriate in challenging such behavior.  For example, with the 9/11 survivor you mentioned, a response might be, "Do you praise your god for not allowing three thousand others to escape from the collapse?"

 

 

...

2) It kind of goes with #1 in some ways. There's no need to be so aggressive when it comes to disagreeing with religion or telling others you're atheist. In my honest opinion, you look arrogant and full of it when you're in a minority (which is underrepresented and somewhat hated) and you so angrily confess that everyone else is "dumb" or " deluded". Word choice is everything. I'm not saying keep quiet or be passive, oh hell no. But don't be so aggressive! Assertive yet open is the best approach in my opinion.

...

 

Well, many theists are willfully ignorant and deluded.

 

...

3) I rarely ever hear about atheist organizations doing charity work in order to help other countries. I hear about this all the time with Christians. I know said organizations are more about atheist representation, debates, and the rising number of people who are becoming atheists. But it starts to look like a first world problem when we do nothing to help anyone else around the world, be it hungry people, homeless people, or even persecuted atheists in fundamentalist countries.

...

 

Others have responded to this.  The United States government is the larger secular provider of aid in the world, and larger than all USA religious organizations combined.

[mymistake]

Still no Christians?

 

 

Well we don't get many Christians and the ones who do come already have their own agenda.  Good luck getting one to respond.

[StillLooking]

Okay so I think I've found my thought-provoking discussion

I have been thinking about certain ideas, beliefs, and behavior within the Christian and atheist communities (having been a borderline fundamentalist Christian to an agnosticand I've thought about what I do like and what I don't like. I'm a pretty analytical person, I would say. I think about the cons and what could be improved and how. I would like to see how this will go and how people react, if they think the critiques I give are validated or not. So here we go...

 

Since I'm now an agnostic atheist, it's only fair to start with atheism. I like lists, so I'll do a list

1) I hate whenever I see someone thank God for something or want to pray and then an atheist says "God's not real" or something about talking to an imaginary sky daddy. I remember a 9/11 survivor praising God for allowing him to get out of the South Tower moments before it collapsed and how atheists kept saying how it was so ironic and selfish of him. I'm not an anti-theist and most of my family and friends are religious, so I maybe don't feel as strongly as some of you guys do. Whenever someone thanks God, there's no need to crush them. If that's what gets them through the day and gives them hope, it's fine by me. As long as they don't force it on anyone else or feel the need to evangelize or make laws based on their faith, the usual stuff, it's their right to believe what they want without being insulted all the time.

2) It kind of goes with #1 in some ways. There's no need to be so aggressive when it comes to disagreeing with religion or telling others you're atheist. In my honest opinion, you look arrogant and full of it when you're in a minority (which is underrepresented and somewhat hated) and you so angrily confess that everyone else is "dumb" or " deluded". Word choice is everything. I'm not saying keep quiet or be passive, oh hell no. But don't be so aggressive! Assertive yet open is the best approach in my opinion.

3) I rarely ever hear about atheist organizations doing charity work in order to help other countries. I hear about this all the time with Christians. I know said organizations are more about atheist representation, debates, and the rising number of people who are becoming atheists. But it starts to look like a first world problem when we do nothing to help anyone else around the world, be it hungry people, homeless people, or even persecuted atheists in fundamentalist countries.

 

 

1) I used to think this way. Until a hardship fell onto me and a friend who had had a similar hardship loudly proclaimed God was great and good to lead her out of the hardship. I was hurt and the experience drastically changed my view. Think for a moment of 9/11 victims' relatives when they heard a survivor thanking God for allowing him to live. The statement can be understood that God didn't allow the victims to live! That is very selfish. I do, however, keep this view to myself because I am surrounded by religious people. I applaud atheists who speak their own mind without any fear of retributions. Of course we still have to conduct ourselves when we speak out. For example I don't condone mentioning the nonexistent of God in a prayer meeting for victims.

 

2) I have a mixed opinion regarding this. I agree it is counter productive if people are aggressive or using foul languages in conveying their thoughts. However, I disagree that people have to tone down their outspokenness simply because they are in a minority. I think racial discrimination and gender discrimination would not diminish if their leaders are not vocal in championing their causes.

 

3) Atheists are not monolithic so there is no atheist leader. It would be rare to have a charitable organization proclaiming atheism as the cause. Although, as others have mentioned there are plenty of secular charities.

[seven77]

Responses:

 

Atheists:

1. Thanking God -- I dislike it when believers are all "Praise the Lord!" or what have you when something good happens to them. Mostly because God has jack shit to do with one's good fortune. The mind that doesn't look for magical God-based solutions will often spot patterns that point to the reality-based reasons for why something happens (or doesn't). Of course, it is considered crass to point this out in a lot of cases but that doesn't change the facts. 
2. Atheists Are Angry and Full Of It -- Some atheists are angry; some atheists are full of it. Some Christians are angry; some Christians are full of it. Neither side is perfect. I for one do not give a damn if some Christian takes me seriously when I say that I do not believe in a Sky Daddy or his Magically Undeadened Son. Christians often take non-belief quite seriously and can be very cruel to those who espouse non-belief. So the blade cuts both ways, you see.
3. Atheist Charity Work -- There are plenty of secular charities and groups out there raising money and doing good things in their communities and around the world. I fail to see where this is a valid criticism of anything, really. 

Christians:

1. LGBTQ -- LGBTQ folks are living in sin and looking to infect our youth with their perverted illness. It says right here in _____________ that homosexuality is EVIL and must be punished. If only they'd turn away from their sins, they'd see the light of a life lived for Christ! 
2. Persecution -- Christians are persecuted here in America every day, all day long. I can't even turn on my tv/radio without being bombarded by [insert sex, violence, homosexual agenda or whatever else here]. If this were really a godly country, things would be a lot different....blah blah.
3. Logical Fallacies -- Most Christians: JESUS SAVES! I'd rather be a dumb bunny in Heaven than a genius in Hell...hawhawhaw............................My Old Church: Here's a stack of books and a list of websites. We can read this together, pray about it and perhaps the Lord will open your heart to the TRUTH, seven77. 

I doubt you will get any responses from our Christians in the Den. If you do, they won't be of any use. Just some pithy sayings, song lyrics, or cut n' paste apologia that can easily be refuted via Google-fu.