I Don't Know What To Think

[Shenette]

Hello everyone,

I have been battling with belief and nonbelief at different times of my life. I grew up attending Baptist church; however, now I attend Church of Christ. I have slowly but surely been having doubts. I won't so much as say about God, but in the God that the Bible speaks of. I have had many many doubts about the bible. I have a hard time grappling with the idea of all of the "evil" stuff that god does in the bible. We have just accepted it as we don't understand God's ways. That sounds to me like a parent telling their child "I said so", when you don't have an answer for a good question that they have asked. I just look at the stories of Job and Abraham and I think those things are just so cruel! Why would a loving god do such a thing? I could go on and on, but I know that I would be preaching to the choir.

 

Here is my problem...

 

I have a "testimony" in my life that I have ALWAYS attributed to God. I have no other explanation. I am hoping that someone here may be able to shed some light or help me through my thinking.

 

I was at a job that I absolutely hated! Because of this, a friend of mine recommended that I apply at a different place of employment, which I did. During this time, I remember saying to myself... I just wish I could get a vacation and make more money. I said that to myself only. Now, after my initial job interview, I ended up getting fired from the job that I hated hated! I was so upset about my future that I begged to keep my job, to no avail. So, I tucked my head between my legs and got ESCORTED from the building. This was on a Thursday. Keep in mind, that I had a 2nd interview for the job that I had previously applied at scheduled for the following Monday. I stopped crying and had to go back on Friday to pack up my desk after hours, so as not to cause a disturbance. Although, I had been fired, they still agreed to pay me for all my vacation time that I had not used, which was 3 weeks (Some consolation at the time, but not much). I went to my 2nd interview on Monday, and it wasn't a 2nd interview at all. I had an offer letter already typed up for the job and a $4k a year increase in pay to boot. So, when she asked when I could start, I told her in 2 weeks (she didn't know I had been fired just the previous week), due to having to put in a "two week notice". So all in all, I got a paid 2 week vacation, started my new job in time to get paid 2 weeks after working and got a $4k increase in pay. Never missed a single paycheck! I have always attributed this testimony to God. What else could explain this working out for me? I also need to add, that the new job set me on the path to where I am today.

 

So this one big testimony in my life keeps me tied to God and causes me to be unable to shake my belief. I still struggle with thinking that the bible is a big crock of BS. That maybe this bible god is fictitious, but there is some type spirituality that connects us all.

 

I just don't know.

 

PS. Added bonus, the supervisor that fired me, got fired about 4-6 months after I did. LOL. And guess where he ended up looking for a job????? And guess who the manager asked for their opinion about said supervisor? Yes indeedy! Meeeeeeeeee! :-) However, I took the high road and did not bash him. I just told her to interview him first and we would talk after she had already formed her own opinion about him. Needless to say, he didn't get the job. Not because of me though. This had to be God right???

 

I just don't know...

[GraphicsGuy]

Welcome to the forum.

 

A few years back I saw a job advertised for a "sewing machine repair technician". I had absolutely no experience, but it really sounded like something that I wanted to do. So I begged the owner (who turned out to be an old-school, fundy Christian...of course) of the shop to give me a chance and I got the job...

 

...and I was promptly bored out of my skull.

 

I had imagined that I would be surrounded by broken machines and would have to figure out how to repair each one. Nope, not how it worked. There was a procedure and most of the machines simply needed "adjustments".

 

So, I learned the basics and then it was the same...everyday...all the time...and I was too slow and couldn't fill the quota for the day(s).

 

First job I have ever been fired from (my pride took a huge hit that day).

 

So, I looked for another job...and I got one shortly thereafter...managing an embroidery/promotional items shop.

 

Their main embroidery machine was broken and because of the experience I had garnered at the sewing machine job, I was able to fix the embroidery machine...and able to figure out commercial embroidery without any previous experience and with no training (I'm also brilliant, so that helped too).

 

Anyway, it was a large string of coincidences. It definitely seemed as if someone was looking out for me.

 

But...I had deconverted years prior to this experience, denied the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...I even have an open invitation for Satan to come visit me if he so chooses, so it couldn't be the Christian God "blessing" me, could it?

 

Sometimes things just work out perfectly. Sometimes they don't.

[florduh]

Hello and welcome!

 

So this one big testimony in my life keeps me tied to God and causes me to be unable to shake my belief.

 

Seriously? You think God got you a job (of course, only Christians get decent jobs  ) but He doesn't bother to feed starving children? Take a step back for perspective and try to see how the brainwashing has affected you.

[darthcool]

Interesting but I am always critical of a universe that moves with agency and personal intention when a mechanical universe has been validated so certainly. But my emotional life I always find positive synchronicities that give me feelings of personal relationship with universe

 

 

dont know if I am being negative or not , but considering 20000 children die every day from what i understand is preventable suffering. I am always reminded of this when people mention how god helped them with a job or buying a car.

 

I like the idea of a universe that helps us out its emotionaly satisfying but as I speak hundreds of thousands of lifeforms are being eaten alive....one of the few positives of this reality I guess i can think of is it creates empathy and kills personal ego

[mymistake]

Welcome Shenette.  I'm not sure what you are asking of us?  Are you tired of deluding yourself and want

 

help?  Or does this dream bring you so much happiness that you won't give it up?  If you think about it

 

getting a job isn't miraculous.

[Llwellyn]

Shennette -- There's nothing supernaturally miracuolous about your story.  I'm sorry, but it's just not remarkable.  You are an able-bodied person who knows how to read and write, to reason, use your muscles, and show up at work on time.  People like that are very useful in a modern economy, and it is pretty natural that some employer is going to know how to put you to work in order to make shemselves a buck and make you a buck.  You are pretty seriously selling yourself short if you think that your relevance to the modern world is a miracle.

 

And if your prior boss had such bad leadership that he couldn't develop you and your skills in order to benefit the company and its shareholders, then of course he fired you.  And of course he himself was next out the door on his ass.  That's how the economy works -- adapt and rationally manage, or perish.  Both of you were recycled out of a disfunctional environment into one that would be more effective at engaging your productive abilities.  This isn't a "big testimony" -- this is a commonplace.  If you have "no other explanation" you aren't casting about to notic some very plausible explanatory hypotheses.

[RachelSkates]

Agree with above poster. Nothing remarkable. It would be remarkable if you were illiterate, an immigrant without the language skills of the country in which you live, brought up in abject poverty and perhaps disabled in an invisible manner. THAT would be some kinds of thing to make you say Hmmmm. Not this.

 

The next question ---if God answered your prayer, and he is just and good and a non-respecter of persons, why didn't he help people who really needed it? Why was he fooling aorund with your vacation and job when people are getting killed in war zones?

[Burny]

Welcome and thanks for having the courage to ask your question here. It's already been answered but I wanted to point out that while it's obvious to us non Christians that the idea of a perfect God helping someone with a job while ignoring millions of suffering children is ridiculous, it's not so obvious to xtians who have been raised to believe that Jesus is their best friend in the sky, who only wishes to make their lives better. Because he loves them.

[EyesOpened]

Hello everyone,

I have been battling with belief and nonbelief at different times of my life. I grew up attending Baptist church; however, now I attend Church of Christ. I have slowly but surely been having doubts. I won't so much as say about God, but in the God that the Bible speaks of. I have had many many doubts about the bible. I have a hard time grappling with the idea of all of the "evil" stuff that god does in the bible. We have just accepted it as we don't understand God's ways. That sounds to me like a parent telling their child "I said so", when you don't have an answer for a good question that they have asked. I just look at the stories of Job and Abraham and I think those things are just so cruel! Why would a loving god do such a thing? I could go on and on, but I know that I would be preaching to the choir.

 

Here is my problem...

 

I have a "testimony" in my life that I have ALWAYS attributed to God. I have no other explanation. I am hoping that someone here may be able to shed some light or help me through my thinking.

 

I was at a job that I absolutely hated! Because of this, a friend of mine recommended that I apply at a different place of employment, which I did. During this time, I remember saying to myself... I just wish I could get a vacation and make more money. I said that to myself only. Now, after my initial job interview, I ended up getting fired from the job that I hated hated! I was so upset about my future that I begged to keep my job, to no avail. So, I tucked my head between my legs and got ESCORTED from the building. This was on a Thursday. Keep in mind, that I had a 2nd interview for the job that I had previously applied at scheduled for the following Monday. I stopped crying and had to go back on Friday to pack up my desk after hours, so as not to cause a disturbance. Although, I had been fired, they still agreed to pay me for all my vacation time that I had not used, which was 3 weeks (Some consolation at the time, but not much). I went to my 2nd interview on Monday, and it wasn't a 2nd interview at all. I had an offer letter already typed up for the job and a $4k a year increase in pay to boot. So, when she asked when I could start, I told her in 2 weeks (she didn't know I had been fired just the previous week), due to having to put in a "two week notice". So all in all, I got a paid 2 week vacation, started my new job in time to get paid 2 weeks after working and got a $4k increase in pay. Never missed a single paycheck! I have always attributed this testimony to God. What else could explain this working out for me? I also need to add, that the new job set me on the path to where I am today.

 

So this one big testimony in my life keeps me tied to God and causes me to be unable to shake my belief. I still struggle with thinking that the bible is a big crock of BS. That maybe this bible god is fictitious, but there is some type spirituality that connects us all.

 

I just don't know.

 

PS. Added bonus, the supervisor that fired me, got fired about 4-6 months after I did. LOL. And guess where he ended up looking for a job????? And guess who the manager asked for their opinion about said supervisor? Yes indeedy! Meeeeeeeeee! :-) However, I took the high road and did not bash him. I just told her to interview him first and we would talk after she had already formed her own opinion about him. Needless to say, he didn't get the job. Not because of me though. This had to be God right???

 

I just don't know...

Thats one way you could look at it. Think about this, how many Christians were after that same job that might have needed it more than you, didn't get it? Where was God for them?

 

I think it was just you all along doing these things in life. No God needed for this.

 

Humans have a tendency to only see the "me" perspective on life and only focus on that. Sometimes we dont step out of our own perspective to see it from others views.

[Shenette]

Thank you everyone for your ideas on my situation. I just wanted to say that it wasn't so much as getting the job that I felt was the testimony as this was not the first job that I have ever had. I didn't consider all of my other jobs as anything special as most of you have stated. The only reason that I felt this one was different in that it "seemed" to involve more than just getting a job. I also forgot to mention that I felt that the reason I was fired was so that I wouldn't turn down the other job. I am someone who absolutely hates change. Which is probably part of the reason that I am having more difficulty than some of you in letting it go. However, if I didn't have my doubts about god and the bible and wanting help in my thought processes, I wouldn't be here.

 

@GraphicsGuy... I like your idea that sometimes things work out perfectly and sometimes they don't. You are right, because there are other instances in my life that have not worked out perfectly, but those are the ones where the "god doesn't give us what we want, he gives us what we need" explanations take hold. I will remember this.

 

@florduh and @mymistake... it wasn't just that I got a job. I have gotten many jobs in the past that I did not hee and haw over. Only this particular situation where I had rationalized in my mind that it was something "more" at work here. This is the reason that I posted my "testimony" for ex-Christians who have been where I am to help me rationalize my "testimony" as I am able to do with so many other topics. I am a very fact based person and very rarely make emotional decisions. I just need a little help moving on from this as it has been struggle for me.

 

@darthcool, @rachelskates, @burny and @eyesopened... thank you for helping me look at the big picture. There is so very more important things that such a loving omnipotent god should be doing if he exists to help pain and suffering in this world. Helping abused children, wars, wrongly convicted people, etc. This help me put things in perspective.

 

Thank you all for your help! If anyone has anything else to add, I am definitely looking forward to your responses.

 

 

 

 

[EyesOpened]

Thank you everyone for your ideas on my situation. I just wanted to say that it wasn't so much as getting the job that I felt was the testimony as this was not the first job that I have ever had. I didn't consider all of my other jobs as anything special as most of you have stated. The only reason that I felt this one was different in that it "seemed" to involve more than just getting a job. I also forgot to mention that I felt that the reason I was fired was so that I wouldn't turn down the other job. I am someone who absolutely hates change. Which is probably part of the reason that I am having more difficulty than some of you in letting it go. However, if I didn't have my doubts about god and the bible and wanting help in my thought processes, I wouldn't be here.

 

@GraphicsGuy... I like your idea that sometimes things work out perfectly and sometimes they don't. You are right, because there are other instances in my life that have not worked out perfectly, but those are the ones where the "god doesn't give us what we want, he gives us what we need" explanations take hold. I will remember this.

 

@florduh and @mymistake... it wasn't just that I got a job. I have gotten many jobs in the past that I did not hee and haw over. Only this particular situation where I had rationalized in my mind that it was something "more" at work here. This is the reason that I posted my "testimony" for ex-Christians who have been where I am to help me rationalize my "testimony" as I am able to do with so many other topics. I am a very fact based person and very rarely make emotional decisions. I just need a little help moving on from this as it has been struggle for me.

 

@darthcool, @rachelskates, @burny and @eyesopened... thank you for helping me look at the big picture. There is so very more important things that such a loving omnipotent god should be doing if he exists to help pain and suffering in this world. Helping abused children, wars, wrongly convicted people, etc. This help me put things in perspective.

 

Thank you all for your help! If anyone has anything else to add, I am definitely looking forward to your responses.

Anytime.

 

Hang around, I have learned a lot here is such a short time. It seems that once your brain drops the wall of what is Christianity, it will absorb logic and the truth become clear.

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

HI Shennette and WELCOME! I agree with everyone here. You got that job, because you deserved it. You took the time to work on your resume (not to mention all the years of hard work and experience that you were able to put in your resume), then you submitted it, were selected for an interview, nailed it, and then the company thought a second interview was a waste. Lets just offer her the position. YOU did that, not God. All those times in your life when things worked out for you, those things were set into motion by choices you've made. Likewise, all those times when things didn't work out so well for you, those were set in motion by you too. I was in your position a few months back. My faith was irreversibly shaken by logic and reason, but i was clinging hard to my faith in God. Then I thought about all those times that it seemed God had answered my prayers. I thought about it really REALLY hard. Then it hit me. IT WAS ME ALL ALONG! All of the good and the bad things that happened in my life were either the direct or indirect result of choices I had made. There was no good reason to believe a deity had anything to do with it. I mean, sure, its possible, but its highly unlikely. I'm sure if you do the same, you will come to the same conclusion we all did.

[GraphicsGuy]

Then it hit me. IT WAS ME ALL ALONG! All of the good and the bad things that happened in my life were either the direct or indirect result of choices I had made.

Yup, that's the ticket!

 

Every church should really have this slogan for new recruits:

 

"Welcome to Christianity! Jesus is here to change you and make your life better, but you have to work your ass off to see the results!"

[amateur]

It's wonderful when things work out well.  It's happened in my life when I fully expected to get one job, then didn't get it, but within a week was able to start another job which I truly enjoyed and had only sent a short resume and letter for.  And they had already hired someone for the original job, so they created another position just for me.  Yay!!!!

 

It's horrible when things don't work out well.  Decades after the first incident, I had a great idea for self-employment that should have worked great for my husband and I, and we discussed it together and with family, planned well, and instead we lost tens of thousands of dollars.  My dollars.  Real dollars.  Boo!!!!

 

Am I supposed to blame a third party for these things happening, instead of saying I am responsible for my own actions?  Specifically, should I say god did the first example above and the devil did the second example?  Or god wanted to "teach me a lesson about losing a lot of money"?  Or should I say that when I fully expected the one job I applied too late (my fault), but my short resume contained exactly what the second place wanted, and when I showed up on time, informed, cheerful and well-dressed, they really wanted to keep me (great timing and being prepared for the interview).  And with the second example, I can say with 20/20 hindsight it was a bad idea that was bound to fail; however, my husband and I learned how well we work together, how much we stuck together and never blamed ourselves or each other for the resultant mess but instead truly supported each other, and we have some amazingly priceless, funny stories over people we interacted with while losing all that money!

 

It was a hideous time when we lost all that money, and we probably will never fully financially recover or properly retire.  On the other hand, we will never starve either.  We are both hard workers, frugal, and will do anything to get by.

 

But I know there is no god that has given me a job when I needed one, or taught me a lesson by losing some money, when single moms struggle to keep any food in the house (let alone afford a car), or disabled people can barely squeeze by on their benefits, or when a medical emergency completely bankrupts an individual or family.  I'm just keeping this to problems that people here in the US face, I'm not even touching on the fact that half the world's population doesn't even have access to clean water.  But I do know people here in this country that are suffering with not enough money through divorce, disability, and impossible medical bills, and nothing I have been through compares to any of that.  What kind of god would let some people get great jobs while letting others suffer through hunger or foreclosure or brain tumors so they can never work again?

 

The longer we live, the more truly great things and truly horrible things will happen to us.  Some of it is hard work and effort, and some of it is random luck or bad luck.  My husband's 19-year-old nephew was just killed in a car accident this week, there is nothing of a god in that, and no great lesson we're to learn, other than "love the good people in your life because you never know what will happen in the next hour."  

[NemesisDivina]

On the subject of the "god gives us not what we want, god gives us what we need" quote, I always liked this line back when I was a christian, as it seemed to justify why my prayers (and everyone else's) usually went unanswered (because god felt i didn't "need" whatever it was I was asking for). However, there is an obvious problem with it: sometimes what we want is very much what we need. Consider a cancer patient: obviously they very much want to be cured, but they also NEED to be cured at the same time if they want to live. So if they really do need healing, the "god only gives us what we need" quote no longer holds up. The same applies to the instances where everyday hundreds of people die from a lack of things they really do need, not simply things they want, such as clean drinking water, lack of medicines and vaccines, etc.

 

I understand your struggle with letting go of god despite seeing the atrocities he commits in the bible, my deconversion was much the same. Given time, I think it will be easier to let go of times like the one you've talked about, where it seems like god really does act in your life. Eventually the way you look at things changes, it certainly did for me. Last year, my cousin was sick with leukemia for the second time, and there was very little hope for his recovery. Suddenly, he was cancer free, out of the blue. I thought for a long while this could only be a miraculous intervention from god, until I thought about all the cancer patients who aren't given miraculous recoveries. I realized it was immoral for me to think that my family deserved this divine intervention, but all the other families with sick loved ones did not. In the end, sometimes things just happen to certain people and not others; sometimes things go well for us, other times not.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hi Shenette, I join the others in welcoming you and in thinking that your story shows how it was "you all the time." I note the wisdom you showed at your new job, when you told the interviewer to interview your old boss first, rather than say anything in advance to prejudice the interviewer's reactions to him.  It might be that you got that idea partly from Christian ethical training, but many systems of ethics would have suggested the same - and it was you who had the insight to act that way in that circumstance.

 

Stick around on here!

[ConsiderTheSource]

Wow, OK... "answered prayer", twice kept me solidly in the faith... probably a good 10 extra years. in my impressionable middle 20th when I was in investment broker on two separate Commission months on the exact last day of the month I got a phone call from people wanting to make major investments neither which were my clients at the time, neither of which I had prospected. Both times I was way behind on my quota and I cried and on my knees and prayed and prayed and prayed both times this happen I only pray twice in this way and both times this happened.The odds of this happening by random? Extremely small, very very small. Both events just "fell out of the sky" out of nowhere. But now I know some 25 years later that this was indeed a random even though very rare and improbable event.

Rare unlikely events combined with seeking God really can put the hooks into someones mental programming. It's one of the strongest tools the church has to grab onto a person and control them for life.

[kolaida]

I prayed and prayed to get a university scholarship that consisted of a small class that would be easy to get to as I was in a 2 + 2 program (2 years community college 2 years unversity). I was extremely specific recalling a sermon taught about a year before about being specific in your prayers.  I prayed every night for about six weeks.  One day on Campus, I noticed a newly posted  sign inviting people to come back at a certain time for scholarship opportunites.  I went back that evening and since only eleven people showed up, we were all  offered scholarships (they had fifteen to give away) to complete the next two years, our classes would be on a Native American reservation and we'd have a job afterwards. 

 

But then my mother used Christianity in talking me into moving and I gave up the scholarship opportunity even though it's what I really wanted. Even so, I'd say I just lucked oupt and was more aware of the opportunities because I'd been so focused on it and, sure, the prayers helped me focus even more so if course I'd notice and go to every class that might ge offering a scholarship. 

 

 

 

Here's an example that doesn't include prayer.  When I was young, around nine, one of my sisters nearly took a tumble down a flight of stairs and I think that always made me second guess any doubts I had about God for a long time.  She was in a walker (maybe a year old, less than 16 months as our other sister hadn't been born yet). I was helping mom with dinner in the kitchen, the kitchen had a door that led to the basement (concrete steps, no carpet, 10-15 steps, usual flight of stairs). The door was usually closed but this day it wasn't.  My sister was curious and somehow bypassed both me and my mom and got to the door. We noticed because Mom had looked back over to where she'd been a minute ago and had asked frantically, "where is she?!" We saw her at the stairs and rushed towards her, but it was like horrible slow motion even though we weren't that far from her. We saw the walker tilt and start to hit the steps as we got there, mom just barely missing her. And somehow, as the walker did it's first little flip, my sister managed to get out, grab the edge of the second step and scream, hanging on for dear life.  My mom jumped the two steps, scooped her up and we watched as the walker tumbled down the whole flight, flipping and making all kinds of noise. Twenty years later, I still remember what the walker looked like and watching as it finally hit the basement floor. Ironically, my mom only told a few friends although she insisted an angel pulled her out, she never gave any testimonies at church or really told that many people, I think she was embarrassed the door had been open in the first place. 

 

Thinking about it without a Christian lens, I'd say that my sister is incredibly lucky the first flip allowed her to fall out (kick herself out) close enough she could grab the second (or was it third, it was still close to the top)  step, and it's quite a testament to human instict survival as even as a one year old, my sister knew to grab and hang on to the step.  Both my mom and I were so relieved, and thanked God, but really the only way we could think to see it was as Christians at the time. How many other babies have taken a dive down stairs and not made it, how many toddlers get killed by pulling tvs onto themselves? Why are we so special? What made my sister not become one of them? I'd say it's more a testament to evolution than religion, survival of the fittest.  

 

Welcome to the forums!!!! 

[Ellinas]

Welcome, Shenette.

 

Of course it is correct that sometimes things happen as we would like them.  Something the Christians tend to ignore, in their infatuation with divine intervention, is that their own Bible tells them that ""time and chance happeneth to... all..." (Ecclesiastes 9.11)

 

And what you have described sounds very... mundane, for want of a better word.

 

It reminds me of the LaVeyan Satanist approach - a basically atheistic "religion" that ultimately works on the basis that you get what you work for and you influence outcomes by the actions you take.  You got the job because you applied for it - nothing more is implied by your account.

 

Mind, even if you are determined to see divine intervention in this - on what basis does it have to be the Christian god?

 

Keep thinking and try to infuse Christian claims with even a touch of realism.  The power of the "testimony" you describe will soon evaporate, I suspect.