Llwellyn Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 "Do not put the Lord your God to the test." Luke 4:12, Matthew 4:7, Deuteronomy 6:16. Christianity denies that an experience of a given description will necessarily result from an experiment related to Yahweh's existence. There are no conceivable practical consequences that must, by necessity, result from the existence or nonexistence of Yahweh. Our idea of anything is our idea of its sensible effects. Thus, when a person says "Yahweh is real," the person is committed to nothing different from atheism. Someone might say that Christianity asserts we will meet Yahweh after our death, and we will taste his blessings and cursings at that time. But, this specification of what we mean by Yahweh's existence establishes a test; it is a prescription for an experiment that, when it will be carried out in act, an experience of a given description will result. But Yahweh has said that he is not testable in this manner. If we know what the necessary effects of Yahweh are, we are acquainted with every fact which is implied in saying that Yahweh exists, and there is nothing more to know. Imaginary distinctions are often drawn between beliefs which differ only in their mode of expression. The wrangling which ensues is real enough, however. It is high time for atheists and Christians to admit that the two belief-systems resolve to the same thing. It is foolish for Atheists and Christians to fancy themselves in disagreement about the existence of Yahweh, if they agree in regard to his necessary sensible effects, here and hereafter. Since no practical difference whatever can be traced, then the alternatives mean practically the same thing, and all dispute is idle. Is there some genuine point of disagreement between Christianity and Atheism that I am missing? Because they seem to have the same upshot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuker12 Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 What are you advocating? None of this is coming through my thick skull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CutiePie Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I understand nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 If the point being made is that what humans call God cannot be either proven or disproven to exist then I agree. I don't think God or Gods exists but I cannot prove that any more than a believer can prove that God does exist. A believer accepts the possibility of God existing on faith....a choice to believe without evidence or proof. I cannot say for certain that other realities do not exist or that if these realities do exist that life forms reside there. There is at least some circumstantial scientific evidence that other realities "may" exist, but that is only a theory at this point. If such realities actually do exist that still doesn't prove the Christian God exists or that such realities, if they do exist, contain life forms of any kind. The road I have chosen is to simply say I am not religious. The evidence that does exists has proven to my satisfaction that all religions are man made, so that allows me to reject the Christian God as a man made myth. I'm not sure if that is what the OP was getting at but that is the way I interrpreted their post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I disagree profoundly that Christianity and Atheism resolve to the same thing. Christianity and Atheism are antithetical. True, Christianity states "Do not put the Lord your God to the test", but this is meant as a warning to doubters not as a statement that if Christianity is true it will make no practical difference in our lives. Christianity is full of predictions about what we should see in this life if it is true. We are told that followers of Christ will be able to perform miracles. We are told that they will be able to consume poison and feel no effects. We are told that if Christians are generous in their tithes and offerings, God will be generous in return (and interestingly enough, we are specifically told that we are to test God in this). This is just to name a very few things. Of course, none of the above is actually born out in reality. What we actually see is a world that is much more consistent with an Atheistic view than a Christian one. This indicates that Christianity is false. It does not indicate that Christianity and Atheism are somehow the same. Yes, it is true that, practically speaking, whether one is a Christian or not has very little effect on what will happen to them. But this is not in keeping with Christian teaching, and it is in keeping with what one would expect if Atheism were true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Imaginary distinctions are often drawn between beliefs which differ only in their mode of expression. The wrangling which ensues is real enough, however. It is high time for atheists and Christians to admit that the two belief-systems resolve to the same thing. It is foolish for Atheists and Christians to fancy themselves in disagreement about the existence of Yahweh, if they agree in regard to his necessary sensible effects, here and hereafter. Since no practical difference whatever can be traced, then the alternatives mean practically the same thing, and all dispute is idle. Is there some genuine point of disagreement between Christianity and Atheism that I am missing? Because they seem to have the same upshot. I have to agree with Disillusioned here (as far as I understand the OP). Also, I think Atheism=Christianity is like apples=oranges. Atheism isn't a 'belief system', it's a conclusion. Also, atheism doesn't give a damn how you wear your hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 My guess: Christians say "don't put God to a test". Any claim about God is a test. Therefore Christians cannot make any claims to know anything about God. Christians can't even claim to know that God exists, because that would also be a test. Atheists can't claim to know God exists. Christians also can't claim to know God exists. (Anyway that's my guess LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindReason Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Atheism != Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 Hey, thanks for trying to interpret my first post. This is another way of putting it: What Christians mean by the phrase "Yahweh Exists" is the same as what the Atheist means by the phrase "Yahweh Does Not Exist." To the Christian, Yahweh denotes no specific practical bearings that could be identified in advance. "God works in mysterious ways, Don't put God to the test, etc, etc." By the logic of Christianity itself, any test applied in order to observe any effects of Yahweh will fail. The Christian says: when you make observations, he cannot be seen, touched, tasted, felt. He cannot be verified or falsified. His existence will forever be "above" scientific measurement. This same phenomenon is the phenomenon that atheists have in mind when they say "Yahweh Does Not Exist." When we say that God does not exist, we are saying, again, that "any test applied in order to observe any effects of Yahweh will fail." Christians and Atheists should high-five each other because although we may have a difference in verbiage, we have no difference in meaning. I don't mean to ignore the examples offered by Disillusioned of the multiple predictions that Christianity makes for how we might be able to sensibly observe Yahweh if Yahweh were indeed real. However, as he well knows, when push comes to shove, Christians will say that the failures of these predictions are all besides the point and prove nothing. Yahweh's reality has spiritual bearings not tangible bearing. And since that is the purport of of the word Yahweh, then the word is certainly true, for there is no god. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sylensikeelyoo Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Gat dayum L! You are so fucking smart I ain't even kidding. Your posts ALWAYS fuck my mind up every which way. GREAT POST indeed! I half way understand what you just said. Let me sober up and get back with you tomorrow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Is there some genuine point of disagreement between Christianity and Atheism that I am missing? Because they seem to have the same upshot. Neither atheists nor Christians really expect a God to appear or do anything, but for different reasons. The Christian must be satisfied with a do-nothing God while the atheist just doesnt believe there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I disagree profoundly that Christianity and Atheism resolve to the same thing. Christianity and Atheism are antithetical. True, Christianity states "Do not put the Lord your God to the test", but this is meant as a warning to doubters not as a statement that if Christianity is true it will make no practical difference in our lives. Christianity is full of predictions about what we should see in this life if it is true. We are told that followers of Christ will be able to perform miracles. We are told that they will be able to consume poison and feel no effects. We are told that if Christians are generous in their tithes and offerings, God will be generous in return (and interestingly enough, we are specifically told that we are to test God in this). This is just to name a very few things. Of course, none of the above is actually born out in reality. What we actually see is a world that is much more consistent with an Atheistic view than a Christian one. This indicates that Christianity is false. It does not indicate that Christianity and Atheism are somehow the same. Yes, it is true that, practically speaking, whether one is a Christian or not has very little effect on what will happen to them. But this is not in keeping with Christian teaching, and it is in keeping with what one would expect if Atheism were true. True. As a Christian I was told all kinds of miraculous things 'could' happen, yet we all settled for the same kind of reality that atheists and everyone else experienced while trying to pretend that God had done something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Gat dayum L! You are so fucking smart I ain't even kidding. Your posts ALWAYS fuck my mind up every which way. GREAT POST indeed! I half way understand what you just said. Let me sober up and get back with you tomorrow.I agree with this 100%. Every time I see he makes a new post I say, "oh shit, time to TRY to turn my brain cell on", his abstract thinking and wording is one of a kind and takes threads to the next level. I couldn't get this one until he further explained it. Time to get my studying cap back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sylensikeelyoo Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Gat dayum L! You are so fucking smart I ain't even kidding. Your posts ALWAYS fuck my mind up every which way. GREAT POST indeed! I half way understand what you just said. Let me sober up and get back with you tomorrow.I agree with this 100%. Every time I see he makes a new post I say, "oh shit, time to TRY to turn my brain cell on", his abstract thinking and wording is one of a kind and takes threads to the next level.I couldn't get this one until he further explained it. Time to get my studying cap back on. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 On the other hand, a person that smart should be able to communicate clearly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCW Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I don't believe most Christians would accept that interpretation of that scripture nor do I believe that it was the intended idea. I would think that the interpretation disillusioned gave would more likely be closer to the intended message. In my experience, most Christians do claim to know God exists and they do believe that they see evidence for his existence in their daily lives. Another large group will admit that evidence and reason is not enough and faith is also required. I have heard many different definitions of faith. The first group will usually define faith as almost synonymous with trust and claims it should be based on reason. The second group will define faith as believing the unbelievable, or believing that which cannot be seen, or stranger still another way of knowing. Whatever the case, they believe this mechanism of faith to be a reliable way of finding truth. I believe this second mindset is the one you are referring since they will agree any test or experiment you tried would come up null. Even if they agree that empirical evidence and logic can't get us to God, this is not in anyway the same mentality as atheism. They claim to have another way of knowing this God while we generally reject this method altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Hey, thanks for trying to interpret my first post. This is another way of putting it: What Christians mean by the phrase "Yahweh Exists" is the same as what the Atheist means by the phrase "Yahweh Does Not Exist." To the Christian, Yahweh denotes no specific practical bearings that could be identified in advance. "God works in mysterious ways, Don't put God to the test, etc, etc." By the logic of Christianity itself, any test applied in order to observe any effects of Yahweh will fail. The Christian says: when you make observations, he cannot be seen, touched, tasted, felt. He cannot be verified or falsified. His existence will forever be "above" scientific measurement. This same phenomenon is the phenomenon that atheists have in mind when they say "Yahweh Does Not Exist." When we say that God does not exist, we are saying, again, that "any test applied in order to observe any effects of Yahweh will fail." Christians and Atheists should high-five each other because although we may have a difference in verbiage, we have no difference in meaning. I don't mean to ignore the examples offered by Disillusioned of the multiple predictions that Christianity makes for how we might be able to sensibly observe Yahweh if Yahweh were indeed real. However, as he well knows, when push comes to shove, Christians will say that the failures of these predictions are all besides the point and prove nothing. Yahweh's reality has spiritual bearings not tangible bearing. And since that is the purport of of the word Yahweh, then the word is certainly true, for there is no god. I agree that some Christians see it this way, but not all. I know many people who claim to have had direct, tangible experiences of God. I know many people who claim that the do know that God exists, because He has been proven in their lives. Moderate, doubting, somewhat rational Christians tend to take refuge in the claims that "God works in mysterious ways", and that he cannot be proved or disproved, but this is not representative of the views of all Christians. Moreover, I think that this sort of reasoning is fundamentally weak. It makes Christianity into an ever-expanding all-encompassing hypothesis that is unfalsifiable. Rationally minded secularists generally hold that such hypotheses are examples of the type of reason that should be avoided. Hence, I think it is still valid for Atheists to criticize Christians who take refuge in platitudes such as these. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 The Christian must be satisfied with a do-nothing God Christians are satisfied with a do-nothing God. Which, in a kind of acid-wash analysis, shows that they are just as much of an atheist as I am. What they expect from Yahweh is what they mean by "Yahweh" and no more. If they are satisfied now, they will be just as satisfied in the hereafter, if there is a hereafter. The word "God" is just senseless jargon when they do not anticipate certain predictable effects, direct or indirect, upon our senses. The meaning of a word lies in its direct bearing upon conduct. The idea of Yahweh is a zombie idea, clattering down the empty highways without human habitation. When Christians and Atheists come to a shared language, I would ask the Christian to give up null non-ideas rather than ask an Atheist to adopt them. Neither person would have to change their understanding of the same lived reality which we all experience. I do think that we can find common ground with Christians, and one way to do this is to show them that we are talking in two different ways about the same thing. The difference being that we are taking the direct route, and they are taking the circuitous route. BTW, my partner laughed and agreed with Duderonomy's comment. Very sorry for any frustration that may result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Christians say "don't put God to a test". That's because if they did, nothing would happen, causing the the person to see christianity was a fraud and leave the religion all together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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