Wittyusername Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 This is now the third week of not going to church. I started deconverting around the beginning of this year and told church I am no longer coming a couple of weeks ago. I had always brought up my daughter as Christian and at one stage we were going to church three times a week plus bible study at home. She is 10 and I have had to force her quite a bit to go, but she likes the people and playing with the kids. While I was deconverting I continued to take her, quite simply for fear of hell . I did not want her to suffer if I had somehow got it wrong. Now I can see this religion is actually damaging. I really don't know what to say to her. From when she was little I told her Santa was a 'nice pretend' so that she would never have to look back and feel lied to by her parents. I really don't know what to say to her. The other thing is that she would tell my mother. She was a ministers daughter and for her whole life has been deep in Christianity. It is her whole social life. She looks forward to heaven for her reward and to see dead loved ones. She will never give that up and I have decided not to come out to her as she will be heartbroken and send out legions of prayer interventions for me. Has anyone any advice about doing a complete 180 degree turn with regards to a child's upbringing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Ugh. I'm sorry, I have no advice because I don't have children. But I hope that you find a solution to this quickly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 This is now the third week of not going to church. I started deconverting around the beginning of this year and told church I am no longer coming a couple of weeks ago. I had always brought up my daughter as Christian and at one stage we were going to church three times a week plus bible study at home. She is 10 and I have had to force her quite a bit to go, but she likes the people and playing with the kids. While I was deconverting I continued to take her, quite simply for fear of hell . I did not want her to suffer if I had somehow got it wrong. Now I can see this religion is actually damaging. I really don't know what to say to her. From when she was little I told her Santa was a 'nice pretend' so that she would never have to look back and feel lied to by her parents. I really don't know what to say to her. The other thing is that she would tell my mother. She was a ministers daughter and for her whole life has been deep in Christianity. It is her whole social life. She looks forward to heaven for her reward and to see dead loved ones. She will never give that up and I have decided not to come out to her as she will be heartbroken and send out legions of prayer interventions for me. Has anyone any advice about doing a complete 180 degree turn with regards to a child's upbringing. When I attempt to stop a bad or unhealthy habit, it helps if I replace the behavior with something good or healthy. Perhaps you could spend the time you used to go to church with your daughter by doing something else with her, such as going to a library, signing her up and being involved in a sport, hiking, bike riding, or some other activity. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Find other cool things to do on Sunday morning. Show her life can be cool without church. After a while you can tell her that you don't believe that stuff anymore. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dichotomy Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 She's 10? I'd probably be honest. Have a little discussion with her about faith, belief, opinions, other religions and just see where she's at. Tell her that people change their minds about things, likes, dislikes, opinions etc. and that you've gradually started to think differently and don't want to go to church any more. I don't know your full circumstances, but I wouldn't withhold the truth from my child for fear of them saying something to my mum. Your relationship with your daughter is in your control at the moment, lying to her isn't worth it as it could have long term problems between you both. I'm going to assume that you want her to be able to make her own mind up on these things over her life and not feel like she has to keep something from you due to your disapproval or back lash, which essentially seems to be your worry about being honest with your mum. Make the relationship between you and your daughter better than that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I felt the same as you when I was deconverting. I was willing to risk hell for myself if I was wrong, but I didn't want to take anyone else (especially anyone who was close to me) with me. Like you are discovering, that goes away with time. And with the firm conviction that you are, day by day, moving away from a fantasy and towards what is true. Just my 2 cents: 10 year olds are pretty smart. She will begin to figure it out on her own. If I were you I wouldn't sit her down and give the whole story of your doubts and loss of faith. (which I actually call "escape" ). I'd give it to her in the form of a knowing smile, a little comment here or there. If she mentions something about Jesus, I'd just say something like, "I'm not so sure that's right any more" I surely wouldn't just hit her over the head with a bombshell that everything she's been taught so far is pure bullshit. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Your mom is a different story. That's always hard when a parent thinks you have turned your back on everything they hold dear. And that you might be headed for hell. That's always a tough situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 "While I was deconverting I continued to take her, quite simply for fear of hell . I did not want her to suffer if I had somehow got it wrong. Now I can see this religion is actually damaging. I really don't know what to say to her." .... "Daughter, after years of going to church, I believe Jesus is telling us that we need to follow him in our own special way. He has a special plan for our lives and oddly enough it means we are transcending this church"....(and blah blah blah any other convincing BS you happen to think of ). You could hint at maybe going to another church at some point, if you think she will tell grandma...keep the idea of religion going for a while to keep grandma off your back but get your daughter going with other activities...fade away from religion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 That's a tough one. My daughter just outed us last weekend when my mom overheard her and a cousin talking. I minimized the blow a bit, but I knew it would happen that way. I wouldn't lie to her or encourage her to lie to your mom. I think at her age she can handle the truth, though I'm sure she'll have questions. You could emphasize that this is just what YOU believe, and that she has the freedom to decide what she wants to believe. My kids had no problem at all with not going to church as neither of them really got anything out of it anyway. As for your mom, I'm not sure you will be able to keep it from her forever, and your daughter will likely be the catalyst. Ultimately, how she responds is up to her - you can't take responsibility for that. Though you love her, you have to take care of yourself and your daughter and not live your life for your mom. My mom is the widow of a pastor, so it was hard for her to hear we weren't going to church anymore, either, and that we had doubts. I'm still waiting To see what will come of it, but so far so good. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue elephant Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Part of the message you may want your daughter to absorb is "I did some more reading and some more thinking and I realised there were things that didn't add up". The idea that it is right to change your mind when new evidence comes to light is a concept that is good for your daughter to learn. But the overarching message of all religions is "do unto others ..." And that is an idea that will continue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceWoman Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 My daughter is also 10. That age is surprisingly more intuitive, aware, and understanding than I would have imagined (unless my kid is just different than most?). We have had frank conversations about religion, why we no longer attend, and why I no longer believe. She had gone to private Christian school for three years, and had witnessed my heavy involvement in our church. She knew I was a big believer! I found that openness and honesty with her really led us to some interesting conversations. In the end, she is relieved to be out of the nonsense too. And she seems to relish that I come to her with such things, and she can talk openly with me about things on her mind. I'm hoping this pays off when she's 17 or so, ha ha! As for your mother, I hear you there too. My mother is the daughter of a conservative preacher too. She went to Lutheran colleges and is still a big church goer. My daughter and I have discussed this. (In my case, we have almost no contact with my mother any more, so that makes it a little easier for my daughter not to spill the beans.) My daughter understands that there are things that are private family matters, and we don't have to (and should not) tell others. Such cases include things that would hurt other people's feelings (such as, don't tell certain neighbors that she knows we don't really like them, or certain of her friends that we think are a little annoying), or things that would be embarrassing (occasional bedwetting accidents, or mommy forgot to pay the water bill), or things that are just intensely personal (her recent onset of menstruation, or mommy sleeps nude). She knows not to tell the gabby 8-year-old next door certain things too, lest they get twisted around and spread to other kids. She totally understands that things like religion are hot-button topics and are also deeply personal, and therefore best not to discuss lightly with others. In your case, I think being completely honest with your daughter regarding your mother will be met with more understanding and cooperation than you think. You're kind of keeping a family secret, and she might enjoy that thought. And she will want to spare your mother any grief and worry too. You know your daughter and her maturity level. Have faith in her, and work honestly with her. Others have given great ideas for easing into it, if you think that's necessary. Keep us posted! I think you're going to be fine. Enjoy your conversations and let them go where they may. You may learn all kinds of great stuff about the inner workings of your daughter's mind, and that's good for both of you. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 My daughter understands that there are things that are private family matters, and we don't have to (and should not) tell others. Such cases include things that would hurt other people's feelings (such as, don't tell certain neighbors that she knows we don't really like them, or certain of her friends that we think are a little annoying), or things that would be embarrassing (occasional bedwetting accidents, or mommy forgot to pay the water bill), or things that are just intensely personal (her recent onset of menstruation, or mommy sleeps nude). She knows not to tell the gabby 8-year-old next door certain things too, lest they get twisted around and spread to other kids. She totally understands that things like religion are hot-button topics and are also deeply personal, and therefore best not to discuss lightly with others. Love this. I have not had this conversation with my kids. Excellent idea. I think they kind of intuitively know it, but can't hurt to talk about it. The only thing I disagree with is having "family secrets". We have issues with that on my husband's side. Little secrets (not telling my mom I gave away my cello years ago) are no big deal, but big ones are hard to keep and tend to require telling lies and fabricating stories in order to keep them secret. Of course only you know just how damaging the truth would be, so maybe it really is worth it, but for us, the truth may be painful but is easier than trying to remember the trail of lies. It also impacts trust issues. If you find out a loved one has been keeping a secret for years and been lying to protect it, what other things might they have lied about? Will I be teaching my kids to lie to me in the future? That's the big one for me. I keep telling them they can tell me anything. What if one of them gets molested and they don't tell me because they're afraid it will hurt me? Being a little paranoid here but truth is a hot-button issue for me, and there's a difference between not telling a private truth and actively lying to cover something up. "Oh yes, Grandma, we go to church every Sunday and we pray every day. Yes, I love Jesus and he is my savior." Again, everyone has to weigh the consequences for their loved ones and maybe it is worth it in their situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burny Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 We deconverted when our kids were 11 and 13. The best policy? Just be honest and open with her. She will be confused because she sees you go from 100% Jesus to 100% NO Jesus, but it'll teach her the most important lesson in life - namely that sometimes the things we believe are truth, aren't. If you try to shelter her from it you are only going to create resentment later in life. Now that you're deconverted there's no reason to lie anymore. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 >>>>While I was deconverting I continued to take her, quite simply for fear of hell<<<<< Sounds like you are not "really" de-converted. Truth and common sense ALWAYS is better than bullshit. Tell her like it is, in the most diplomatic way you can... Be a man and stand up against the mainstream brain washing, an teach your offspring to do the same... Gonna be tough? yeah... How as CHANGE EVER been simple? Man up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceWoman Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 The only thing I disagree with is having "family secrets". We have issues with that on my husband's side. Little secrets (not telling my mom I gave away my cello years ago) are no big deal, but big ones are hard to keep and tend to require telling lies and fabricating stories in order to keep them secret... Yes, thank you for pointing this out! I should clarify -- no lying of course! My main point was just don't bring up touchy stuff in the first place. But what if specifically asked? Ugh... that could be a problem, assuming you are still in contact with family members who are prone to ask such things. I guess you could instruct the kids to just say, "Ummmm, you'll have to talk to my mom about that." And tell them they don't have to elaborate further than that. Good point, Daffodil. I'd be curious what others would recommend. If the family member asks your kid straight out, that does put a kid in an awkward position. If adults are asking your kids adult-like questions, I think it's your right as a parent to take on those conversations and spare the kids. Hmmm. Family. What a pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittyusername Posted November 1, 2015 Author Share Posted November 1, 2015 >>>>While I was deconverting I continued to take her, quite simply for fear of hell<<<<< Sounds like you are not "really" de-converted. Early on in this journey I became convinced the whole bible/Christianity thing was BS but I did not want to risk my child being punished if I was wrong. Now, having done even more reading and from this site the few areas of doubt I have about Christianity are gone. I would class myself as agnostic in that revealed religions are not in fact the truth but will not completely discount something else possibly being 'out there'. Thank you for all the advice and suggestions. I love my mother very much but church is literally her foundation so I will just have to play this by ear. We speak on the phone a couple of times a week. Visiting is a four hour round trip so it is every few months. With my daughter I will also just try to let the situation develop naturally and not have a big sit-down talk with her. In the last few months I have been trying to teach her a few elements of critical thinking (while learning them myself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dichotomy Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I wouldn't ever have a long sit down conversation with a child, just little discussions here and there. My mum always found being in the car a good time to talk about stuff so that's an option. I was thinking more along the lines of if she asks what's going on be honest with her, or just trying to direct the conversation towards this a little bit every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 My daughter is five. I've been pro-active with her on critical thinking. What does that mean, you might ask. I have developed games I play with her that mimic Christian explanations. Game #1 You can't prove I don't have magic powers! When something unexplained happens I tell my daughter "you are welcome!". She asks why and I explain that I used my magic powers to make the event happen. Then I tell her she should thank me. (The way Christians blame God for every random thing that happens and thank God for any good event.) My daughter typically tells me that I don't have magic powers. Then I object with "You can't prove I don't have magic powers". And from there I run down all the other lame excuses Christians use for why they can't show God exists. My kids recognize them all and realize I am lying to them when I make these excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 My daughter is five. I've been pro-active with her on critical thinking. What does that mean, you might ask. I have developed games I play with her that mimic Christian explanations. Game #1 You can't prove I don't have magic powers! When something unexplained happens I tell my daughter "you are welcome!". She asks why and I explain that I used my magic powers to make the event happen. Then I tell her she should thank me. (The way Christians blame God for every random thing that happens and thank God for any good event.) My daughter typically tells me that I don't have magic powers. Then I object with "You can't prove I don't have magic powers". And from there I run down all the other lame excuses Christians use for why they can't show God exists. My kids recognize them all and realize I am lying to them when I make these excuses. Brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez130 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I don't have the answer. I told my oldest that I no longer believe. I think he still does, though, so I haven't brought it up since our initial conversation. My youngest is 12, and I have not told him. He knows we don't go to church anymore, but he hasn't brought it up. They both go to a Christian school. I've tried pulling them out, but it didn't work. Fortunately, I don't have the mother problem. I do have an extremely religious SIL, but we don't see her much, and the boys avoid her because she is quite literally crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez130 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Love your game, My Mistake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittyusername Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 My daughter is five. I've been pro-active with her on critical thinking. What does that mean, you might ask. I have developed games I play with her that mimic Christian explanations. Game #1 You can't prove I don't have magic powers! When something unexplained happens I tell my daughter "you are welcome!". She asks why and I explain that I used my magic powers to make the event happen. Then I tell her she should thank me. (The way Christians blame God for every random thing that happens and thank God for any good event.) My daughter typically tells me that I don't have magic powers. Then I object with "You can't prove I don't have magic powers". And from there I run down all the other lame excuses Christians use for why they can't show God exists. My kids recognize them all and realize I am lying to them when I make these excuses. I love this idea. Could you help Me out with a few examples of the excuses and how you would respond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongWayAround Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 The other thing is that she would tell my mother. She was a ministers daughter and for her whole life has been deep in Christianity. It is her whole social life. She looks forward to heaven for her reward and to see dead loved ones. She will never give that up and I have decided not to come out to her as she will be heartbroken and send out legions of prayer interventions for me. I don't have any advice regarding talking to your child about your deconversion. I had it easy because all of my kids (adults) are atheists. Regarding your mother: I had not planned to tell my parents that I had deconverted for the same reasons you list. On the other hand, I was not willing to lie or to pretend. My parents are, and have been, heavily involved in church their whole lives. After declining to say grace several times and not talking about church or religion anymore, my parents asked me what was going on. I was honest with them and told them exactly why I no longer believed. They have been surprisingly accepting of my non-belief. My Mom more frequently mentions when she feels like god has answered her prayers and my Dad told me just a few days that he prays for me every day. A couple of weeks ago, my parents had an outdoor church event at their house with about 70 people attending. I went to spend time with my extended family and to help my Mom and Dad with set up and clean up. The minister's devotion around the campfire was about "what to do when you are having doubts or feel like god isn't there at all." I know my Dad talked to the minister, told him I was going to be there, and tailored the message just for me. So there is that. All that aside, I am glad I am out of the closet with nothing to hide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dichotomy Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 My daughter is five. I've been pro-active with her on critical thinking. What does that mean, you might ask. I have developed games I play with her that mimic Christian explanations. Game #1 You can't prove I don't have magic powers! When something unexplained happens I tell my daughter "you are welcome!". She asks why and I explain that I used my magic powers to make the event happen. Then I tell her she should thank me. (The way Christians blame God for every random thing that happens and thank God for any good event.) My daughter typically tells me that I don't have magic powers. Then I object with "You can't prove I don't have magic powers". And from there I run down all the other lame excuses Christians use for why they can't show God exists. My kids recognize them all and realize I am lying to them when I make these excuses. I love this idea. Could you help Me out with a few examples of the excuses and how you would respond? I also like this idea. I haven't intentionally done it as a game or quite specifically thought out but I enjoy being ambiguous with my children. Anything to do with socially encouraged fantasy, tooth fairy, father christmas, fairies, unicorns etc. I have aways played around with "are they real, are they not" and got them to both come up with arguments for and against. My daughter with autism likes facts and dismissed all such things pretty quickly and doesn't like playing around with these sorts of ideas but my other two children (11 and 7) love it. It infuriates them a little that I intentionally change my mind and my arguments but they like the fact that I do not force my beliefs on them, or insist that they play the "Santa is real" game, but instead let them decide and imagine and believe for them selves if they want. I've done the same with God and religions (we live in a very multicultural area and in their school the majority of children are Muslim so this gets talked about more than church. They know I don't believe and that their dad doesn't believe and is effectively anti-theist, but they also know that I'm comfortable with them thinking and exploring for themselves. My eldest daughter has been through a phase of wanting to be a muslim and a sikh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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