Finding Meaning As An Atheist

[directionless]

I've been reading "Man's Search for Meaning" by Frankl. Frankl was a Jewish psychiatrist who survived the Nazi concentration camps. He also founded logotherapy which claims that psychological problems often stem from seeing life as meaningless or seeing no way to achieve the desired meaning in life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy

 

So here is the quote. Frankl is trying to encourage the fellow concentration camp prisoners, because they are concerned that some of them may give up and die. Most of the encouragement is useless for people who do not believe in spirits or gods. This makes me wonder if the survivors of the concentration camps may have been those with religious faith. (In fairness, the first paragraph might resonate with atheists as well as theists.)

But I did not only talk of the future and the veil

which was drawn over it. I also mentioned the past; all

its joys, and how its light shone even in the present

darkness. Again I quoted a poet - to avoid sounding

like a preacher myself - who had written, "Was Du

erlebst, kann keine Macht der Welt Dir rauben. "

(What you have experienced, no power on earth can

take from you.) Not only our experiences, but all we

have done, whatever great thoughts we may have had,

and all we have suffered, all this is not lost, though it is

past; we have brought it into being. Having been is

also a kind of being, and perhaps the surest kind.

 

Then I spoke of the many opportunities of giving life

a meaning. I told my comrades (who lay motionless,

although occasionally a sigh could be heard) that hu-

man life, under any circumstances, never ceases to

have a meaning, and that this infinite meaning of life

includes suffering and dying, privation and death. I

asked the poor creatures who listened to me atten-

tively in the darkness of the hut to face up to the

seriousness of our position. They must not lose hope

but should keep their courage in the certainty that the

hopelessness of our struggle did not detract from its

dignity and its meaning. I said that someone looks

down on each of us in difficult hours - a friend, a wife,

somebody alive or dead, or a God - and he would not

expect us to disappoint him. He would hope to find us

suffering proudly - not miserably - knowing how to die.

https://archive.org/stream/MansSearchForMeaning_201507/Man's%20Search%20For%20Meaning_djvu.txt

[florduh]

Perhaps the key to any success with this line of thinking is really just a belief in something bigger than yourself. This doesn't require any imaginary deities because we have life itself, the wonder of nature, family who benefit from your existence, jobs that still need to be done for the greater good, all that stuff.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I concluded after my deconversion that meaning to life is like all of the other meaning we give to things, we create it. As humans, we abstract almost everything and give varying degrees of value or good/bad judgments, and this abstraction allowed us to create things like language and philosophies until we wonder about why we are alive. Most animals probably do not spend time on this, and are more concerned with surviving and mating. We are also animals and we are alive regardless of any over-arching meaning, particularly one given by an invisible being on a throne.

 

Some cultures value certain aspects of human life, while others value completely different things. What I as an individual choose to pursue and give passion to is what I think shows my "meaning". I love certain people, and devote time and energy to them. I sing and entertain audiences, and that is another aspect of meaning - giving joy. Pan back away from the planet, and do any of our lives matter to the universe? Perhaps in some ways that we don't realize yet, or perhaps we simply exist and all meaning is simply abstract thought trying to make sense out of the world so we can have a better handle on things.

 

I'm also curious about how much survival depended on "not giving up", versus physical causes. I don't know much about that area of the mind. Certainly, plenty of believing people died in the camps.

[rjn]

Thanks for the tip! This Frankl guy sounds like an interesting chap.

[hockeyfan70]

I need to read that book. I read the Night Trilogy by Elie Wiesel (also a concentration camp survivor) and found it hard to read but necessary.

[Vigile]

Why does there have to be an afterlife for life to have meaning to you? This is just religious indoctrination. I used to understand it, but the longer I've been away from religion, the less sense it makes to me. Because life is fleeting, meaning in what we have is so much deeper. If you were to live forever, moments in life would simply be cheap. Your very breath would be cheap. 

[midniterider]

Is "life's meaning" really a thing we need to discover? Something we need to think about or feel anguish about? Something to strive for?

 

There seems to be an assumption originating from religious culture that a Christian's life 'has' some uber-important meaning while a non-believer's life has 'no meaning.' I think this is an unchallenged meme, so let's challenge it. It boils down to value. Let's replace the word 'meaning' with 'value.'

 

Now, a Christian is supposed to do all the things Christian's do and then end up in heaven. A Christian thinks this is valuable, important and gives their life purpose. Why is it valuable to praise Jesus till the end of eternity? Why is it important? Why is it valuable? Cuz someone somewhere said 1) Your life must have a purpose , and 2) Jesus Christ is that purpose.

 

Really, we don't need to search for meaning. Life is it's own meaning. Sensory experience is amazing. If you need to do something, go do it. Think of who you are and what you give to other people by just being a nice person. Put a smile on someone's face. And watch Tim Minchin.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhT7Tr3_IhQ

[florduh]

Yes, don't buy into religion's definitions and assumptions. We DO NOT need to feel obliged to compare/contrast ourselves only in ways that reference THEIR beliefs.

 

Theologians claim there is a god, that god imparts meaning to our lives, therefore without their god a life must have no meaning. Bullshit and double bullshit. They create an imaginary deity to give themselves a meaningful existence. I think I can do better with reality, thank you very much.

[directionless]

I concluded after my deconversion that meaning to life is like all of the other meaning we give to things, we create it.

I have heard that so many times, and it just doesn't make sense to me. I have been depressed off-and-on my entire adult life (30 years). My therapist often remarks that I can turn anything into pessimism and self-criticism. Seeing life as a meaningless, miserable waste of time is instinctual for me. I think the atheists who talk about creating their own meaning probably are happy, well-adjusted people. "Eat, drink, and be merry" is all the meaning that they need. Growing-up, people always told me I was gifted, but I learned better. A lot of times I feel so ashamed of my inadequacies as a human being that I think I should be chased out into the wilderness like the Biblical scape goat - pushed over the cliff to cleanse humanity.

 

It's not an afterlife I crave. All I want is for God to understand that there are reasons that I have not done as well in life as most people. A few weeks ago I actually believed that everything in my life had a purpose - even my mistakes and failures. That was a nice psychological state, but it seems to be gone.

 

I'm also curious about how much survival depended on "not giving up", versus physical causes. I don't know much about that area of the mind. Certainly, plenty of believing people died in the camps.

According to Frankl, physical health was not nearly as important as mental health in survival.

[directionless]

Thanks for the tip! This Frankl guy sounds like an interesting chap.

You're welcome. I haven't finished that book yet, but I like Frankl's ideas. I hope I can find a way to put them into practice.

[directionless]

I need to read that book. I read the Night Trilogy by Elie Wiesel (also a concentration camp survivor) and found it hard to read but necessary.

Thanks, I have not heard of that book.

[directionless]

Why does there have to be an afterlife for life to have meaning to you? This is just religious indoctrination. I used to understand it, but the longer I've been away from religion, the less sense it makes to me. Because life is fleeting, meaning in what we have is so much deeper. If you were to live forever, moments in life would simply be cheap. Your very breath would be cheap.

After life doesn't appeal to me, but I want a grand finale. After death I want to see God and then like a moth to the flame I want to feel love just before I cease to exist.

[directionless]

... And watch Tim Minchin.

Thanks, I enjoyed that video

[directionless]

Yes, don't buy into religion's definitions and assumptions. We DO NOT need to feel obliged to compare/contrast ourselves only in ways that reference THEIR beliefs.

 

Theologians claim there is a god, that god imparts meaning to our lives, therefore without their god a life must have no meaning. Bullshit and double bullshit. They create an imaginary deity to give themselves a meaningful existence. I think I can do better with reality, thank you very much.

I am beginning to think that the proper balance of neurotransmitters gives life meaning It is like that saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Meaning is a chemical state in our brains.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

"I have heard that so many times, and it just doesn't make sense to me. I have been depressed off-and-on my entire adult life (30 years). My therapist often remarks that I can turn anything into pessimism and self-criticism. Seeing life as a meaningless, miserable waste of time is instinctual for me. I think the atheists who talk about creating their own meaning probably are happy, well-adjusted people. "Eat, drink, and be merry" is all the meaning that they need. Growing-up, people always told me I was gifted, but I learned better. A lot of times I feel so ashamed of my inadequacies as a human being that I think I should be chased out into the wilderness like the Biblical scape goat - pushed over the cliff to cleanse humanity.

 

It's not an afterlife I crave. All I want is for God to understand that there are reasons that I have not done as well in life as most people. A few weeks ago I actually believed that everything in my life had a purpose - even my mistakes and failures. That was a nice psychological state, but it seems to be gone."

 

 

 

Depression interferes with all kinds of things, and occludes reality with its singular view and insists that only it is real. It is an imbalance that forces its own kind of meaning that emotionally overshadows any contenders. I know people who struggle with that and I wish there were an easy answer to fix it. I can only offer the answer I gave above to your original post, but I can't fix how your mind sees it.

[BarbarousBill]

I am going to be honest and say part of the reason I'm comfortably non-religious is because I'm so comfortable. I'd imagine that if my circumstances were drastically reduced or altered I may be tempted to find justice in the form of a metaphysical actor, such as a deity, in order to bring about some future state of contentment. It's not something I'm ashamed of, it's just a basic reality. When I have an "oh shit" moment, I typically for a split second hope that a metaphysical being is in control of my external reality to prevent a major clusterfuck. Then the second passes and I go on with what I got to do. It's more of a reaction for me, like an "I'm not sure if this will end well... so if someone was in charge of things that would be nice" reaction, if that makes sense. So I guess for me, the meaning of life is primarily the thrill of adventure. Religion simply doesn't fit much into it except as a topic for discussion and exploration. The impact a divine being has on my everyday reality is largely a reaction to events out of my control and passes with the moment.

[TABA]

Really, we don't need to search for meaning. Life is it's own meaning. Sensory experience is amazing. If you need to do something, go do it. Think of who you are and what you give to other people by just being a nice person. Put a smile on someone's face. And watch Tim Minchin.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhT7Tr3_IhQ

Thanks midniterider. Loved the video!

[directionless]

Depression interferes with all kinds of things, and occludes reality with its singular view and insists that only it is real. It is an imbalance that forces its own kind of meaning that emotionally overshadows any contenders. I know people who struggle with that and I wish there were an easy answer to fix it. I can only offer the answer I gave above to your original post, but I can't fix how your mind sees it.

Very true. I cycle in and out of depression at least once a week, so that gives me frequent opportunities to observe the contrast between the two states (depressed / non-depressed). In the depressed state, I cannot remember how it feels to be non-depressed. In the non-depressed state, I can compare the two, and I am always shocked by how much depression was distorting my perceptions. Your description is very accurate.

[directionless]

I am going to be honest and say part of the reason I'm comfortably non-religious is because I'm so comfortable. I'd imagine that if my circumstances were drastically reduced or altered I may be tempted to find justice in the form of a metaphysical actor, such as a deity, in order to bring about some future state of contentment. It's not something I'm ashamed of, it's just a basic reality. When I have an "oh shit" moment, I typically for a split second hope that a metaphysical being is in control of my external reality to prevent a major clusterfuck. Then the second passes and I go on with what I got to do. It's more of a reaction for me, like an "I'm not sure if this will end well... so if someone was in charge of things that would be nice" reaction, if that makes sense. So I guess for me, the meaning of life is primarily the thrill of adventure. Religion simply doesn't fit much into it except as a topic for discussion and exploration. The impact a divine being has on my everyday reality is largely a reaction to events out of my control and passes with the moment.

Thanks, @BarbarousBill . Of course comfort is in our brains. So it is our psychological health that gives us contentment and happiness. But physical conditions influence psychological conditions too. Like the concentration camp inmates were not getting enough sleep and nutrition and that had a negative effect on their psychological health probably. I'm not sure what my point is actually

[Blood]

"Meaning" is completely subjective anyway. Most people are perfectly fine and content finding "meaning" in sports, far more than religion, though many of those same people would never admit to it. 

 

Religion is meaningless. Any "meaning" found in it is completely delusional. Your "personal relationship" with your dog has more meaning than religion. 

 

"Atheism" is simply the lack of a belief in gods. It says nothing about "meaning." It does, however, serve the valuable purpose of encouraging one to find meaning somewhere beside ancient supernaturalism. 

[directionless]

"Meaning" is completely subjective anyway. Most people are perfectly fine and content finding "meaning" in sports, far more than religion, though many of those same people would never admit to it. 

 

Religion is meaningless. Any "meaning" found in it is completely delusional. Your "personal relationship" with your dog has more meaning than religion. 

 

"Atheism" is simply the lack of a belief in gods. It says nothing about "meaning." It does, however, serve the valuable purpose of encouraging one to find meaning somewhere beside ancient supernaturalism. 

 

Getting back to the OP, we have Frankl who survived a concentration camp. Frankl developed logotherapy which claims that the finding meaning in life is the key to psychological health.

 

I don't believe Frankl claims that meaning is objective. The problem with atheism is not that it rejects an objective meaning defined by a Creator. The problem with atheism is that it tends to be cynical about meaning. The best most atheists can offer is "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we shall die". That type of meaning isn't good enough when a person faces serious difficulties in life.

[yunea]

Hi Directionless, where do you get the "most" in "most atheists say, eat, drink and be merry"? I honestly haven't met any. The atheists I've met who actually are big drinkers and indulge in eating and lots of fun activities also have very difficult jobs, such as some in science.

 

That being said, I find "satisfying place" may be a better word than "meaning" when it comes to finding your life worth living. I used to think there was so much more to my life if I kept my superstitions and beliefs in that my life had unconditional love and guidance in it. It did give me a lot to think of during my days when I had severe depression and was unable to function, but...that love did not cure me. Meds and choosing something to use my days doing did. Realising I was able to do stuff on my own did, slowly - I was terrified to stand on my own two feet.

With the depression gone now, I find the "bigger" thing to love and serve is the planet, and on a smaller scale, the scientific community. I just have to work to get to a position where I can do it the way I dream of. As an atheist, there is no guessing whether I'm going against a "plan" because only my plan exists.

 

Btw don't worry about sounding weird. I have pretty bad dissociation, head full of little "alters" who give me several inner voices at a time and worry about old traumas. It turns out I had alters called Jesus and God too. I created them to love me. I think the Jesus one doesn't appear anymore (he was just a really sad little guy in sandals who needed to be set free) but the God one is a pretty ball of light and love who just kind of hangs around. During the worst of my times I felt an invisible being hold me and pet my head, many times... Not unheard of in that state of mind and in dissociation. I also felt "presences" that I thought were signs of significant things happening, and I actually made choices based on that. Some great ones, some horribly destructive.

Just saying you never know who relates to your stories. I'd love to know more about them.

[directionless]

Hi Directionless, where do you get the "most" in "most atheists say, eat, drink and be merry"? I honestly haven't met any. The atheists I've met who actually are big drinkers and indulge in eating and lots of fun activities also have very difficult jobs, such as some in science.

 

That being said, I find "satisfying place" may be a better word than "meaning" when it comes to finding your life worth living. I used to think there was so much more to my life if I kept my superstitions and beliefs in that my life had unconditional love and guidance in it. It did give me a lot to think of during my days when I had severe depression and was unable to function, but...that love did not cure me. Meds and choosing something to use my days doing did. Realising I was able to do stuff on my own did, slowly - I was terrified to stand on my own two feet.

With the depression gone now, I find the "bigger" thing to love and serve is the planet, and on a smaller scale, the scientific community. I just have to work to get to a position where I can do it the way I dream of. As an atheist, there is no guessing whether I'm going against a "plan" because only my plan exists.

 

Btw don't worry about sounding weird. I have pretty bad dissociation, head full of little "alters" who give me several inner voices at a time and worry about old traumas. It turns out I had alters called Jesus and God too. I created them to love me. I think the Jesus one doesn't appear anymore (he was just a really sad little guy in sandals who needed to be set free) but the God one is a pretty ball of light and love who just kind of hangs around. During the worst of my times I felt an invisible being hold me and pet my head, many times... Not unheard of in that state of mind and in dissociation. I also felt "presences" that I thought were signs of significant things happening, and I actually made choices based on that. Some great ones, some horribly destructive.

Just saying you never know who relates to your stories. I'd love to know more about them.

The concentration camp is an extreme case. According Frankl a person would die very quickly after becoming discouraged, because the immune system is influenced by mental state. Nobody had much hope of surviving the concentration camp. Normally a depressed person must have willpower to kill himself or herself, but in a concentration camp it was different.

 

However, Frankl said that suffering is relative. Most people don't suffer physically like the concentration camp inmates, but people can suffer psychologically, and finding meaning in life is important for everybody. (I'm paraphrasing from memory, so hopefully that is correct.)

 

The "most atheists" that I described as "eat, drink, and be merry" are the people I meet on forums. In fairness, instead of saying "most atheists" I could say "most people". Part of this is due to prosperity of the modern world.

 

It is interesting that you have those "alters". Some of the things I have seen in dreams are so beautiful. I remember passing out in a wedding and it was like looking up from the inside of a tower made of stained glass going to heaven, and I could hear wind chimes loudly ringing. Apparently when a person passes out, the muscles relax in the ear and cause a ringing sound. It was a very beautiful experience, and I tried to recreate it a few times unsuccessfully. I also had a very beautiful dream a few years ago where it seemed that God and/or Jesus were giving me some guidance and encouragement. I was happy for a week after that dream. Some of the other stuff is just weird and hard to explain. LOL