bornagainathiest Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Ironhorse, Do you honor your parents, as the bible commands? Or do you hate your parents, as the bible also commands? What is the correct biblical stance on the parent/child relationship? I expect these should be easy questions for you to answer, given the "simplicity" of the christian religion. Have a nice day, TheRedneckProfessor Ironhorse, Do you honor your parents, as the bible commands? Or do you hate your parents, as the bible also commands? What is the correct biblical stance on the parent/child relationship? I expect these should be easy questions for you to answer, given the "simplicity" of the christian religion. Have a nice day, TheRedneckProfessor Yes I honor my parents. I am very thankful for my parents. Jesus affirmed this commandment in these passages: Matthew 15:4-6, Matthew 19:17-19, Mark 7:10-13. Before looking at what Jesus meant, two explanations on how the word “hate” is often used in scripture and its meaning. “The footnote in the Soncino edition explains the saying that God hates the angels and loves mankind: "By giving them His Torah, though the angels desired it.--'Hates' is not meant literally, but simply implies that He showed greater love for man." ~ Soncino Exodus Rabbah, p. 571. “But these antonyms, ahavah ("love") and sin'ah ("hate"), are also used with a special flavor in Deuteronomy 21:15-17 as meaning the loved one and the hated, that is, the less-loved one. In Greek, the same Semitisms are carried over in the antonymic use of agapan/misein with the same special flavor in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13 "where, in dependence on Dt. 21:15-17 and Ex. r., 51(104) [footnote--on Ex. 38:21 'Why is the mount of the Law called Sinai? Because God disregarded (sane') the lofty and loved (ahav) the lowly'] they mean 'to prefer' ('to be faithful to') and 'to slight' ('to despise'). We have here a Hebraism, as in the requirement for discipleship." This last reference is to the two parallel lists of requirements for discipleship; Matthew 10:37 uses the formula ho philon huper eme, "He who loves . . . more than me," while Luke 14:26 simply parallels it by saying kai ou misei "If any one comes to me and does not hate. .” ~ Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. Professor of Old Testament at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Massachusetts Now to a passage the people who heard Jesus speak knew: Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. Even with her who lies in your embrace be careful of your words. For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises up against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies are the members of his own household. ~ Micah 7:5-6 So this saying of Jesus reflected a common Jewish understanding of the day as expressed in this verse from Micah on the messianic age. Even some families would be divided concerning the coming of the messiah. So Jesus is telling them, the messianic age is now he. He is the Messiah. If our families disagree on this, we must love Christ more than our parents. This same division has occurred since the time of Christ. "Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. Even with her who lies in your embrace be careful of your words. For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises up against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies are the members of his own household." ~ Micah 7:5-6 This saying of Jesus reflected a common Jewish understanding of the day as expressed in this verse from Micah on the messianic age. Even some families would be divided concerning the coming of the messiah. This same division has occurred since the time of Christ. Ironhorse, If the "Christian Message" is as simple as you say it is... ...why do you need a learned exposition from a Theological Seminary to explain this to the Prof..? . . . Also, in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74079-since-youre-back-ironhorse/page-3#.V_53hfkrJD8 ...I've repeatedly asked you to tell us what the obvious, visible truth about God is, that He has made plain to everyone. Since that is part of the "Christian Message" it should be simple enough for you to provide a simple answer. Well..? You say it's simple. So let's have the simple answer, please! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 If the Christian message is simple and clear, why do apologists always resort to academical sources?A perfect example is your explanation of the word "hate" in a certain context... You're aware most Christians won't actually check up the original Greek or Hebrew sources right? Are they to be blamed if they misinterpret something then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 12, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 12, 2016 Y'all already know I'm calling bullshit on Ironhorse's explanation. The bible is meant to be god's divine revelation of himself to humanity. Moreover, god is meant to be omniscient and omnipotent. If the bible really is the divine revelation of an omnipotent and omniscient god, then why the hell can't he just say exactly what he means? Why can't he just say "prefer" instead of "hate"? Shouldn't an omniscient god know that those two words have completely different meanings? Shouldn't an omnipotent god be able to provide and accurate translation of his own autobiography into the English language? This kind of explanation really just boils down to "the bible doesn't mean what it says". It's not really an explanation at all because it raises more questions than it answers. Rather, it's really more of an excuse for a god who is either too dumb, or too dishonest, to say exactly what the hell he means. Shall we leave it at that, Ironhorse; or would you like to try again? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Y'all already know I'm calling bullshit on Ironhorse's explanation. The bible is meant to be god's divine revelation of himself to humanity. Moreover, god is meant to be omniscient and omnipotent. If the bible really is the divine revelation of an omnipotent and omniscient god, then why the hell can't he just say exactly what he means? Why can't he just say "prefer" instead of "hate"? Shouldn't an omniscient god know that those two words have completely different meanings? Shouldn't an omnipotent god be able to provide and accurate translation of his own autobiography into the English language? This kind of explanation really just boils down to "the bible doesn't mean what it says". It's not really an explanation at all because it raises more questions than it answers. Rather, it's really more of an excuse for a god who is either too dumb, or too dishonest, to say exactly what the hell he means. Shall we leave it at that, Ironhorse; or would you like to try again? Hey Prof! Didn't you know? That's what spiritual blindness is. The inability to see what the Bible doesn't actually say. We who are blind can only see what the Bible does say. So we see the word, 'hate'. But if we weren't blind, we'd see what God actually meant. Which is the word, 'prefer'. It's so simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 13, 2016 Moderator Share Posted October 13, 2016 If the Christian message is simple and clear, why do apologists always resort to academical sources? Or have to be Doctors of theology themselves. The Bible says put on the mind of Christ, lean not to thine own understanding, learn as a little child etc, its hidden from the wise and prudent, but revealed to babes such as would learn. The general message from the bible is education is bad. A lot of fundies don't get their children educated for this reason. (At this point we can cue Adam Sandler's character's mother when she says "Education is from the devil!" No where in the bible does it even hint that one should go become a Doctor to understand the simple word of God. I think it was Paul who had to go an unlearn all what he knew. Maybe this post belongs more in the Simplicty of the Christian message thread, but carrying on rjn's thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 <?> said --- "a child who is allowed to be disrespectful to his parents will not have true respect for anyone." While I think this statement is too strong to be accurate, I agree with the general principle of respecting one's parents. Respect for my parents is precisely why I am not a Christian. My parents are Indian and Hindu. I converted to Christianity, and after six years of watching my white Christian friends follow in the religious footsteps of their parents to great pride, I could not continue disrespecting my parents via my lifestyle. That's why I left Jesus Christ and his vile, disgusting, morally bankrupt faith. I realized that every time I lifted my hands in worship to Jesus, I was slapping my parents in the face and spitting on every belief they had raised me to respect. My desire to respect my parents is why I have only contempt for Jesus. Very interested to hear your comments vis-a-vis respect for parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Respect is a two way street. If they are not abusive, do the right things, look out for the welfare of child/children, then they are worth it. If not, FUCK'EM! Regardless, Billy graham said that if you can't respect them, you can't respect other people. Then Billy Graham is clearly wrong. Abusive people, parents or not, are unworthy of respect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Y'all already know I'm calling bullshit on Ironhorse's explanation. The bible is meant to be god's divine revelation of himself to humanity. Moreover, god is meant to be omniscient and omnipotent. If the bible really is the divine revelation of an omnipotent and omniscient god, then why the hell can't he just say exactly what he means? Why can't he just say "prefer" instead of "hate"? Shouldn't an omniscient god know that those two words have completely different meanings? Shouldn't an omnipotent god be able to provide and accurate translation of his own autobiography into the English language? This kind of explanation really just boils down to "the bible doesn't mean what it says". It's not really an explanation at all because it raises more questions than it answers. Rather, it's really more of an excuse for a god who is either too dumb, or too dishonest, to say exactly what the hell he means. Shall we leave it at that, Ironhorse; or would you like to try again? "This kind of explanation really just boils down to "the bible doesn't mean what it says". It's not really an explanation at all because it raises more questions than it answers. Rather, it's really more of an excuse for a god who is either too dumb, or too dishonest, to say exactly what the hell he means." I think you know it's called exegesis. It is related to English word 'seek'. It means trying to find out what the scripture is saying through its author in a chosen passage. There are several different methods to use. I used the historical method for this text. I looked at the historical context to find what Jesus meant by the word he used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzon Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I think you know it's called exegesis. It is related to English word 'seek'. It means trying to find out what the scripture is saying through its author in a chosen passage. There are several different methods to use. I used the historical method for this text. I looked at the historical context to find what Jesus meant by the word he used. in other words, a ten dollar word for "the process we use to make shit up." Just use logic and common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 22, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 22, 2016 And I can look at the historical context of your posts and know that, yet again, you have simply avoided the real issue. Honestly, Ironhorse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Y'all already know I'm calling bullshit on Ironhorse's explanation. The bible is meant to be god's divine revelation of himself to humanity. Moreover, god is meant to be omniscient and omnipotent. If the bible really is the divine revelation of an omnipotent and omniscient god, then why the hell can't he just say exactly what he means? Why can't he just say "prefer" instead of "hate"? Shouldn't an omniscient god know that those two words have completely different meanings? Shouldn't an omnipotent god be able to provide and accurate translation of his own autobiography into the English language? This kind of explanation really just boils down to "the bible doesn't mean what it says". It's not really an explanation at all because it raises more questions than it answers. Rather, it's really more of an excuse for a god who is either too dumb, or too dishonest, to say exactly what the hell he means. Shall we leave it at that, Ironhorse; or would you like to try again? "This kind of explanation really just boils down to "the bible doesn't mean what it says". It's not really an explanation at all because it raises more questions than it answers. Rather, it's really more of an excuse for a god who is either too dumb, or too dishonest, to say exactly what the hell he means." I think you know it's called exegesis. It is related to English word 'seek'. It means trying to find out what the scripture is saying through its author in a chosen passage. There are several different methods to use. I used the historical method for this text. I looked at the historical context to find what Jesus meant by the word he used. So how is the historical method 'simple' for the millions of Christians who can neither read nor write? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted October 23, 2016 Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2016 ironhorse, perhaps if you can be forthcoming about your hermeneutics and exeJesus, we might all be able to have a more constructive conversation. What are your sources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzon Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 ironhorse, perhaps if you can be forthcoming about your hermeneutics and exeJesus, we might all be able to have a more constructive conversation. What are your sources?that would be a nice change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 ironhorse, perhaps if you can be forthcoming about your hermeneutics and exeJesus, we might all be able to have a more constructive conversation. What are your sources? I did not realize I was hiding them or making all of this up on my own. See post #26. I posted two sources. I did not link them. I sometimes do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 26, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted October 26, 2016 Reality and the Bible clash again. In other news...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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