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Biblical Scholarship Re Christ Or Messiah


R. S. Martin

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I am posting this mainly for future reference because of the amount of biblical scholarship and research I put into it. I do not consider it professional but I do correct some errors in the quote. This response was originally posted at OCD.

My response to the following quote:

 

EXAMINING CLAIMS ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF "CHRIST" AND "LORD"

1. Hebrews, not Greeks, came up with the name Iesous and used it in place of "Yeshua" . About 150 years BC devout Hebrew men translated the Old Testament into Greek. This isn't just speculation, You can check this out for yourself. The Greek translation was called the Septuagint (abbreviated as "LXX" because LXX is the Roman number for 70, which reflected the Hebrew belief that 70 men translated it). The simplest way to verify this is to visit www.unboundbible.org You can have it print out Joshua 1:1 (or any other verse that mentions Joshua) with the English next to the OT Greek. It is obvious the Hebrews chose "Iesous" for "Joshua/Yeshua." That was Greek spelling that to them sounded most like the Hebrew "Yeshua," The Greek alphabet does not have either a "Y" or a "J," nor does it have a "sh" sound, so they could not have spelled it either "Yeshua" or "Jesus." You can also find "Septuagint" in Webster's dictionary (maybe not a pocket size, but the desk size will have it) because it is so important in understanding the Law and Prophets as well as the New Testament. The Hebrew world chose to use the word "Christ," not the Greeks This translation was widely in use among Hebrews in the first century, so many Jews called the Messiah "Christ." Both Hebrew and Gentile followers of Y'shua drew their faith vocabulary and thought from the bilingual Hebrew world, not from the Gentile Greek world.

 

2. The "ous" ending on "Jesus/Iesous" was not put there by sun god worshipers

I don't know how this will look when posted. I'm having serious problems with font size. Isadora, Post 6: Did you read further down the link Ruby? ie the following etc..? I read it now. It contains little I didn't know. The parts I didn't know disagree with standard biblical scholarship. I explain below.

 

EXAMINING CLAIMS ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF "CHRIST" AND "LORD"

1. Hebrews, not Greeks, came up with the name Iesous and used it in place of "Yeshua" . About 150 years BC devout Hebrew men translated the Old Testament into Greek. This isn't just speculation, You can check this out for yourself. The Greek translation was called the Septuagint (abbreviated as "LXX" because LXX is the Roman number for 70, which reflected the Hebrew belief that 70 men translated it).

Yes, this is what I said in Post 5 in response to you.

 

The simplest way to verify this is to visit www.unboundbible.org You can have it print out Joshua 1:1 (or any other verse that mentions Joshua) with the English next to the OT Greek.It is obvious the Hebrews chose "Iesous" for "Joshua/Yeshua." That was Greek spelling that to them sounded most like the Hebrew "Yeshua,"

First, it is incorrect to mix conversation about the name Jesus with conversation about the OT.

 

Here are the reasons:

The New Testament was written in Greek--NOT Hebrew. So far as I know, nobody was speaking Hebrew in the New Testament world. The OT was written in Hebrew and translated into Greek (Septuagint) by Jewish scholars, as stated. They did this because nobody was speaking Hebrew anymore.The name Jesus does not appear until we get to the NT. Second, I read on another forum that Yeshua is not a correct transliteration but I don't remember what the argument was or why they thought it was not correct.

 

The Greek alphabet does not have either a "Y" or a "J," nor does it have a "sh" sound, so they could not have spelled it either "Yeshua" or "Jesus."

Greek has the letter Y. When capitalized, the u becomes a Y. It is called upsilon and sounds much like the English u in lute (Black) or like the French long u in pur (Balme and Lawall).

I get this information from: Athenaze: An Introduction to Ancient Greek, Book 1 (by Maurice Balme and Gilbert Lawall), and Learn to Read New Testament Greek (by David Alan Black).

You can also find "Septuagint" in Webster's dictionary (maybe not a pocket size, but the desk size will have it) because it is so important in understanding the Law and Prophets as well as the New Testament.

This is probably correct.

The Hebrew world chose to use the word "Christ," not the Greeks

This is incorrect. See above.

This translation was widely in use among Hebrews in the first century, so many Jews called the Messiah "Christ." Both Hebrew and Gentile followers of Y'shua drew their faith vocabulary and thought from the bilingual Hebrew world, not from the Gentile Greek world.

It was a multi-lingual world--Aramaic and Greek and Latin. Nobody was speaking Hebrew in the first century.

 

The Septuagint was the "Bible" or "Scriptures" Jesus used. The Jews and first Christians used it, too. The Septuagint was the "Bible" that was used to figure out the Christian theology that became the New Testament.

 

A major part of Christian theology is based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew Scriptures. It is the verse in Isaiah that goes something like this: Behold, a virgin is found with child.

The Hebrew scriptures said: Behold, a young woman is found with child. In a culture where the death penalty applies to premarital sex/pregnancy, this difference is major.

Thus, the virgin birth that many churches use as a test of faith is based on a mistranslation. Part of the New Testament is based on a mistranslation.

 

It is probably okay to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. But Christians should be aware that this is based on a mistranslation. Since girls married very young at the time--approximately at the onset of puberty, any newly-wed woman would have been a "young woman." The Hebrew word is "Alma." I have a niece by that name.

2. The "ous" ending on "Jesus/Iesous" was not put there by sun god worshipers or

Okay, I'm looking at my Greek-English interlinear New Testament. The "ous" spelling is not unique to Jesus' name. In Luke 12:48 it is used for the word "gnous" meaning "knowledge," or "know" or "known." The words Gnosis and Gnostic come from it.

Spellings for the name Jesus

Luke 1:31 Iesoun

Matt. 1:1 Iesou

Matt. 1:16 Iesous

The first letter is supposed to be capital I as in Ian* but in some fonts it looks like the lower case l as in little.

The different endings have something to do with what part of the sentence the word is in. For example, it may be different when used as the subject than when used as the object. My Greek is not good enough at this point to tell for sure.

Messiah

 

The word "Messiah" shows up only twice in Strong's Concordance. It is in Daniel 9:25, 26. I guess that is in the KJV. In the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) it does not use the word. Here are the renditions:

Daniel 9:25

KJV the Messiah the Prince

 

NRSV an annointed prince

Daniel 9:26

KJV Messiah

 

NRSV an anointed one

Messias

The word Messias also shows up twice in Strong's Concordance.

 

John 1:41

 

KJV We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christf

 

f the Christ: or, the Anointed NRSV "We have found the Messiah" (which is translated Anointedj). j Or Christ

 

John 4:25 

 

KJV The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

 

NRSV  The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When he comes, he will proclaim all things to us."

 

It looks like we have the terms Messiah, Messias, annointed one, prince, and Christ scattered all over the place from one language to another, and from one English translation to another.

 

******************
I hope this helps someone. I spent about two hours pulling all this information together and figuring out how to say it so it makes sense to others. If you have questions, feel free to ask.

 

*I have been told that Ian is the same name as John.

 

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