To Hell With Hell

[Guest Antichrist4life]

Something has been bothering me for quite some time now. I think almost as long as I can remember. The unwarranted fear of this nonexistent place called hell is truly an unfortunate thing. An underlying, subterranean social cancer, one might say. It used to keep me up nights as a child and well into adulthood; tossing and turning the precious night hours away; imagining myself and everyone I ever cared about screaming in perpetual agony for all eternity in a pit of never-ending hellfire. I honestly think that religious inculcation is child abuse and that people who put the fear of hell into their children should have their children taken away from them. And it’s ironic that the two gods most responsible for breeding this fear of eternal destruction are the god of the Bible and the god of the Koran. The two most despicable deities man ever invented: deities whom, according to their very own holy texts, are responsible for the most atrocious and deplorable crimes against humanity there have ever been. Many of which are acts a human being could never execute, i.e., Zechariah 14:1-2 where Jehovah sends an army into Jerusalem to ransack the homes and rape the women. Or Deuteronomy 28:53-57 and Jeremiah 19:9 where he makes people eat each other and their children. Stephen King doesn’t write this shit! What is supernatural and also inhuman about such verses, and all the others the Bible is peppered with, besides the most obvious, is that God takes away the freewill of the people being forced to commit these evils with a clear conscience, and controls them like their pawns on a chessboard. This is something a human tyrant could not do no matter how badly he may want to. There is no character in all of literary fiction more worthy of eternal damnation than such a being as this. People actually pray to him, it’s disgusting!

 

 

“Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.” – Thomas Paine

 

 

There are so many miserable, divorced Catholic and Orthodox women out there who had a horrific marital experience, and who now either live in loneliness or in constant guilt and fear for their mortal souls, because they currently “live in sin.” Allow me to elaborate. In Christianity – and the Catholic and Orthodox churches are the only ones who have remained dogmatically true to this – divorce and remarriage to somebody else is only permitted by the lunatic from Nazareth if the first spouse was guilty of infidelity. By any other reason and remarriage is an act of adultery. Meaning, if a man beats the living hell out of his wife on a regular basis, and even gambles her money away, she may leave him only to remain single for the rest of her life, because he did not cheat on her. If she finds another man – one who treats her right, and gives her the good life she deserves – both are guilty of adultery and will be thrown into a lake of fire and sulfur for it for all eternity. This is how evil and sadistic the Christian god is! This is why I hate him so much! He’s the most malicious monster of monsters! What, should the poor, abused woman remain with her tyrannous husband until he beats her to death one day? And why should she remain alone forever if she does the right thing and leaves him? Does she not deserve happiness? Such detestable misogyny! Thankfully, marriage (at least heterosexual marriage) is being slowly abolished along with Christianity itself. And on a side note, if you compare Matthew 19:9 to Mark 10:11-12, Christ contradicts himself on the matter. (The reason being, of course, that the gospel writers didn’t know each other, and so couldn’t check each other’s notes). In Matthew, divorce and remarriage is allowed due to unfaithfulness. However, in Mark it is not allowed at all, and is adultery on all counts. All of this nonsense is a perfect example of what Richard Dawkins rightly calls “obnoxious morality.” Heh. I like that.

 

 

Now, like I said, there has been something on my mind for quite some time now. Almost all my life. It is the existential problem, as I see it, between the day to day interactions of people’s with the different belief-systems of hell. Not to mention th psychological problem of a believer (in such a place) in consorting or even acquainting themselves with a nonbeliever. It is a matter of inauthenticity and self-deceit. And as someone who used to be Christian, it is a problem which I once experienced within myself, all the while wondering how other believers dealt with it. Allow me to illustrate my point.

 

 

A Christian wakes up on Sunday morning and goes to church with his wife and kids (unless, of course, they are Seventh Day Adventists). When consorting with his fellow believers, he does so with a belief in his mind that he may also consort with them for all eternity after death in the bliss of heaven. When he interacts with family members of the same creed, it is with this same species of feeling. Nothing along the lines of convinced fear for their mortal souls exists. But the next day he goes to work. He interacts with fellow coworkers of many different superstitions other than his, along with those who carry none at all. But he smiles to all of them. He wishes them well. He bids them good day. He gives them high fives. He works with them earnestly to achieve their goals and deadlines. He gives them assistance, encouragement and praise. Nobody acts like there is an apocalypse on its way to swallow the majority of the human race into eternal, fiery torment. Well, most don’t anyway. Yet, as far as he is considered, he knows it as fact that most of them (unless they are of likeminded faith) are going to burn in hell forever and ever. And if he is a Catholic Christian he even feels this way about his Protestant coworkers, and they, if the are indeed devout, think this way about him. His Muslim coworkers feel that way about him, as well, along with all their other non-Muslim coworkers, no matter, of course, how good they are as human beings.

 

 

But they act like everything is A-OK. But how can it be okay? If most of their coworkers, acquaintances, and the majority of humankind, who they claim are their brothers and sisters, are going to end up in the most horrific, nightmarish place imaginable, then should they not naturally be in a constant state of nausea and deep, dark depression, peppered with bouts of solemn weeping? How can they say that they are filled with their god’s love, yet not be in the constant turmoil of the conflicting feelings between wanting to be content and happy, and feeling nothing but the most ceaseless fear, pity and sadness for the accursed lot of people who they know and do not know? How then can they say that they love them, when they act like everything is fine and show no concern for them whatsoever? And, indeed, the only way for them to function properly from day to day is if they push these terrible feelings down into the trenches of their guts, and these morbid thoughts into the abyss of their mind. And in so doing, every “hi, how are you?” from a believer to an unbeliever is completely fallacious, because it does not matter how they are, hell awaits them. Every “good morning” and “good night” is tainted with a falsehood that increases along with the smile they are both presented and present with. Every “I hope you‘re doing well” is tainted with a morbid disingenuousness, because it does not matter how they are doing in this world if an eternity of weeping, and whaling and gnashing of teeth is their inevitable, godforsaken end, and deep down inside every believer knows it. But they have to act like everything’s okay. They must lie to themselves that everything is okay so they can have some semblance of peace in a life where it is already so hard to find. Otherwise, the thoughts and images of most of the people they know and care about (even family members of different beliefs) suffering to no avail would weigh down on them to the point where they could no longer function in society. So as a defense mechanism they push them away, and their conscience does not, in turn, constantly bite and nip at them for not always feeling remorse for their fellow man, woman and child, and for not proselytizing every chance they get in order to save them. In this way they teach themselves the abysmal habit of looking at themselves dishonestly. It is a form of cognitive dissonance, a type of what George Orwell called doublethink.

 

 

And so instinctual concern and compassion for those whom, according to their holy writ, are damned forever, is smothered away and replaced with a weaker, tainted, plastic one. And the bad conscience that comes with this is now and then appeased by praying for the infidels and heretics to “come to the light.” Then they can tell themselves that though most are going to burn anyway, at least they’re doing their part. Yet, according to those two monsters of monotheism (Christianity and Islam), everyone who has ever lived or will live is predestined to either go to heaven or hell. So they should know very well, then, that there is no point in praying for them at all. It is futile. All this has implicitly bread in all believers in hell (and there are a few billion of them) an inauthenticity and callousness like no other. For if they actually considered what it all actually meant, and dwelt on it for an extended period of time, that, say, a beautiful human being (a philanthropist perhaps) is to burn in hell simply for not being baptized or for eating pork, for example, their natural care for their fellow species would have their conscience scream at them at how wrong it all is, and they would begin to doubt, as most actually do, whether they would like to admit it or not. And this doubt would grow and grow until it completely swept over their mind, heart and conscience until it blossomed into the emancipation of the fruits of healthy skepticism and a naturalistic world view. They would be cleansed of such a poisonous, masochistic superstition. No longer would they have to believe that most of the innocent, smiling or frowning faces which they see from day to day are going to end up in unending punishment at the hands of a merciless, totalitarian god, who we are supposed to believe is a god of love. For if the believer accepts all this madness for what it is, he or she would have to admit the simple fact that such a god has no love in him at all.

 

 

And if the aforesaid Christian man was raised Muslim, he would believe what Muslims believe about the matter: namely that all non-Muslims, like him, are eternally damned to hell. And if he were raised a Hindu or a Buddhist, he would be damned by both of these monotheistic standards, and, most importantly – it would not be his fault. And if either Christianity or Islam is correct, most people are handed at childhood onwards with a one way ticket to perdition. And, indeed – it is not their fault. No, no; this is most certainly NOT okay!

 

 

Now, let us say, hypothetically speaking, of course, that this madman from Nazareth, this Jesus Christ, were to return one day with a double-edged sword coming out of his mouth to throw the vast majority of the human race into a lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity simply for not believing in him, or for not believing in him strongly enough, would it not be our duty to prevent such an unimaginably horrific and horrible thing from happening? Would it not be, out of our love for humankind, an obligation and privilege to crucify him and everything he stands for – once and for all?!

 

 

I think so...I think...

 

 

If it wasn’t for the fear-tactics of hell and the devil, Christianity and Islam would have been footnotes in history!

 

 

Peace. Love. Abort Christ!

[lifeofbrian]

'If it wasn’t for the fear-tactics of hell and the devil, Christianity and Islam would have been footnotes in history!'

 

Possibly the most powerful line I have ever read which depicts the truth behind the gloabl fanatical insane mad religions. I really enjoyed reading it - it is brilliant - nice one:o)

[Guest Antichrist4life]

Thanks, LifeofBrian. That means a lot.

[Guest Mark Zedler]

I would argue that concept of Hell is probably the worst idea ever conceived by man. Hell has been an incredibly useful and effective tool for Monotheistic religions to keep the masses in line allowing them to enslave millions and millions of people in bondage to their belief system for thousands of years. Organized religion loves to use the threat of hell because it worked. It is thankfully with modern thought, science and technology that we have been able to take a lot of the fear out of hell. While, the religious fundamentalist today still love hell, my feeling is that most normal people do not take hell to seriously anymore.

[Freddy]

God loves you. He loves you so much that he's gonna send you to hell if you are bad. Our heavenly father won't send you to your room without dinner.....you go to hell......FOREVER. Sounds like love to me!

 

Really, even if there was a god, all I have to do is read much of the old testament and imagine Jesus nudging folks into hell and I think I'd say "Eh....not for."

 

Freddy

[thefriendlyghost]

Very well written. You described my experience perfectly. I actually did spend many a night hysterically weeping for the damned, and I put myself in this category as well. I literally almost went insane. Even the religious people I knew could not understand my pain. Every happy moment was darkened by the idea of hell. That's when I started reading and thinking for myself. I was still confused, but I finally had to walk away because I would've either commited suicide, or had to be locked up in a psych ward. Seriously, that's how bad it got. I wonder if my mental illness would've been less of an issue if not for religion; things started to go downhill with my mental health soon after a religious nut grabbed me into a room and proceeded to scare the living shit out of me about hell when I was 8. I never forgot her. She really did a number on me, I guess.

[nightflight]

Great, great post. I think one has to be a bit of a sociopath to be a Christian.

[thefriendlyghost]

I've been doing research on sociopaths, and I think you make an excellent point. A lack of empathy is pretty much required to believe in the christian god- in the long run, anyway. Christians can have empathy for their fellow man here on earth, with charities and outreach programs and such, but at the end of the day the unsaved are still damned, and they accept this. Hell, some are even, dare I say, EXCITED about the prospect of watching the condemned recieve their punishment? Sounds a bit warped to me.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Very well written. You described my experience perfectly. I actually did spend many a night hysterically weeping for the damned, and I put myself in this category as well. I literally almost went insane. Even the religious people I knew could not understand my pain. Every happy moment was darkened by the idea of hell. That's when I started reading and thinking for myself. I was still confused, but I finally had to walk away because I would've either commited suicide, or had to be locked up in a psych ward. Seriously, that's how bad it got. I wonder if my mental illness would've been less of an issue if not for religion; things started to go downhill with my mental health soon after a religious nut grabbed me into a room and proceeded to scare the living shit out of me about hell when I was 8. I never forgot her. She really did a number on me, I guess.

 

Hey, FriendlyGhost,

It is really sad to hear that you went through this. I had a really awful struggle with the idea of hell, too, and demons to boot as I've talked about some in another thread. I do understand that it can get bad enough to need to go to a psych ward, or even end up in the emergency room. I came pretty close to that point myself more than once during the worst period.

 

What I do find so hopeful now is how much better/healthier/happier people can get with time and by working through these issues, even from points as low as what you and I and some others on here went through. It is so worth going through the process to get there.

[eveningmeadows]

I was reading this other thread, and went to the quiverfull site. Now I'm going to go to hell because I had my tubes tied.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I was reading this other thread, and went to the quiverfull site. Now I'm going to go to hell because I had my tubes tied.

 

You and me both!

[Wind Walker]

Comprehensive study of this topic: The truth about hell

[Tabula Rasa]

I was reading this other thread, and went to the quiverfull site. Now I'm going to go to hell because I had my tubes tied.

 

You and me both!

 

What's ironic, is that one man, Mervin L. Behlen, got a vasectomy because he didn't want any chance at all of any children he might have going to hell.

 

From Christian Universalism site Tentmaker.org: My youth consisted of much horror and mental anguish due to messages of well-meaning ministers who presented, for the most part, a god of endless anger and vengeance. The teaching that forgiveness was always available, though, was included at the end of each church service.

 

Judging from how few people really lived a Holy life and how few Christians actually laid their lives down to save people from the awful fate, it appears few people really took the threat of everlasting punishment seriously. I was not one of them. I took it VERY seriously--so seriously that I vowed never to have children so as to be sure none of mine would go to hell.

 

After all, based upon the churches own statistics, 98 percent of humanity was doomed to be tortured forever and ever and ever by their loving god. I had a vasectomy to insure that I would not bring into this world a child doomed to be among the 98 percent of humanity which would find itself burning alive forever.

(Here's the full article)Testimony of Mervin L. Behlen

 

 

This is so very sad. He effectively became childfree not from not wanting to be a father, but the mind numbing terror that any children might have might not get saved and suffer forever in hell.

 

I sort of overquote Robert G. Ingersoll, so I'll just put my own spin on it:(Warning, it's about to get vulgar.)

 

 

 

If there is a God who would damn his children forever, he can suck my dick and eat out of my ass. I'd rather go to hell forever than spend one moment with that sadistic,psychotic motherfucker.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Hell lost its power for me when I made the conscious decision to go my way with my heathen friends and with a clean conscience whether or not hell awaited me for those choices. You say, "alright god, even if you do exist and your hell is real, I will not worship you. I will at least have this one life to make my own and to look back on while you roast me for eternity. Because I honestly would rather go to hell with the unsaved than to heaven with you and your horrific followers."

 

It still bothers me to think about people in my life, like my dad, who must think that it is my fate to go to hell. How does he keep the cognitive dissonance to be able to converse with me without weeping if he truly believes what his bible says? I am a witch and the bible is pretty clear about that. I can't even try to imagine what it would be like to think my child would burn in hell. I can't bear the thought of any harm coming to her let a lone eternal torment, how could someone listen to the doctrine of hell every week and not be weeping for their lost loved ones? Kind of makes the 'crazies' seem more sensible. They at least are acting on what their beliefs say and are trying to 'save' those around them.

 

Very interesting and thought provoking post.

[Dagan]

I actually did spend many a night hysterically weeping for the damned...Every happy moment was darkened by the idea of hell.

 

Sounds familiar. I dealt with it by pushing it out of my mind, but it was always beneath the surface, a fear I couldn't name. It ate away at my psyche like a worm in an apple.

 

I experienced an "awakening" to a particular style of charismatic Christianity which considered it its mission to do God's work and spread the good news, to save people from hell. I found myself weeping and praying for the homeless, prostitutes and drug addicts I would see walking the streets. I felt guilty for not doing more, but proud that I was doing something, and that I was aware of what was really going on in the world.

 

Looking back, it was a frightening form of condescension wrapped in false humility and arrogance. With a side order of duplicity and cognitive dissonance.

 

Your avatar is awesome, by the way.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

It still bothers me to think about people in my life, like my dad, who must think that it is my fate to go to hell. How does he keep the cognitive dissonance to be able to converse with me without weeping if he truly believes what his bible says? I am a witch and the bible is pretty clear about that. I can't even try to imagine what it would be like to think my child would burn in hell. I can't bear the thought of any harm coming to her let a lone eternal torment, how could someone listen to the doctrine of hell every week and not be weeping for their lost loved ones? Kind of makes the 'crazies' seem more sensible. They at least are acting on what their beliefs say and are trying to 'save' those around them.

 

I've wondered about that, too. In fact, I've asked Christians about that in various forums. The responses have been interesting. Many simply say that although they are bothered by the fact that some will go to hell, they are not sure if God automatically sends all non-Christians to hell; they are only convinced that if you are a believing Christian, you can be sure you are going to heaven. (My parents believe this way.) It's not up to them, they say, to try to figure out who is saved or not. They believe God is perfectly just so they leave it up to him and don't bother with the issue.

 

Those who do think that God sends all Christians to hell I've noticed do seem to be more vocal about trying to convince others around them that their way is correct. Some really do seem very concerned for the "lost." Others in this group tell me that although it's "sad" that many will end up in hell, "they got their chance" to get saved and didn't take it -- i.e. they blame the victim (from my perspective, at least). They seem to take a very resigned view of things, as in, "Well, that's the way it is, I told them about Jesus, what else can I do?" Some of these people have told me that no, they won't feel sad in heaven knowing that even some of their friends were in hell because God will just make everything right somehow; heaven will be so wonderful they won't dwell on the fact that some people they care about are not there. One person actually told me that she thought God would erase all memories of any friends/family who didn't get saved so that she wouldn't even be aware that they were in hell. That last thought was particularly chilling to me.

 

As for my own parents (adoptive), there were in fact tears (and numerous big fights) when they found out I wasn't Christian anymore. I suspect some of their fear and sorrow may have come from wondering if I'd end up in hell. We haven't fought about it in a long time, but every once in a while they do say they still pray that I find my way "back to God."

 

My birth-grandmother on my birthmother's side has been more aggressive, even though we don't have much contact. About half of our very sporadic contact consists of her sending me evangelical materials.

[thefriendlyghost]

Jabbrwokk- thanks! MBL, the belief about god erasing memories- I believe that stems from the passage (I do not have verses memorized. Never was good at memorizing anything) that mentions god wiping away every last tear, at the very end, after the final judgement. I heard a preacher mention this once. He assumed that the tears god is wiping away are due to the fact that the saved notice certain friends and loved ones are missing from heaven. So basically, god gives everyone amnesia. Otherwise, people would hate him, and revolt.

[eveningmeadows]

I had a christian friend that went the predestination route. Some how it gave her comfort that god chose before time who would go to hell and who would not. We are unable to accept jesus on our own, so he had to choose before time. Huh??? I said well in that case your kids have a 50/50 chance of making it to heaven. Nothing you do, or preach to them makes much of a difference. Why have kids then?? Would I want a 50% chance of my kids going to hell? How do they comfort someone who had a miscarrage or lost a child? You can't say with all honesty that you will see this child in heaven, because that's not true, it's only a 50% chance. So what do you say to someone who lost a baby or child, sorry about that, I can't tell you your child is in heaven, he or she might also be in hell?! Horrible

[Wind Walker]

If you read what I posted earlier in a piece a wrote a while back entitled "The truth about hell" you'll notice that I break ranks with what most Christians teach and preach in regards to hell. The reason is that what is taught is largely not scriptural (eternal torment), but let me bounce this off you as well...

 

One of the character qualities of God is that He is perfectly just. If He is perfectly just, He can not be unjust. Simple enough concept, but it is largely ignored by most churches. When Jesus was beaten, ridiculed and crucified for your sins He bore the guilt of all of humanity upon shoulders, therefore it isn't possible that you would suffer a greater punishment than He did if it is true that His work on the cross could cover your sins. This is important because the concept of eternal, conscious torment is based upon the interpretation of a few words that do in fact seem to indicate that the price of sin is eternal, conscious torment, but that only lasts as long as you take their word for it when they interpret certain scriptures. The fact of the matter is that when Jesus spoke of hell, it was in reference to one of two concepts... either the state of the dead (the grave or the place where the dead await judgment called Sheol in Hebrew) or Gehenna (a garbage dump that existed outside of the city walls of Jerusalem at that time. The lake of fire mentioned in the Book of Revelation is a place that created for Satan and those angels that rebelled from Him, but it should be noted that "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire". Hell is not the lake of fire, however that is precisely what almost all churches do indeed teach (in error).

 

If you want to know what eternity will be like I can and would be delighted to tell you what I know to be true about this topic, and I assure you that combined what I have already told you to be true about what scripture says about, that your fears about your loved ones who aren't followers of Jesus are largely unfounded fears. I say largely because there is still much to fear, but that is only that they will face judgment alone and without the blood of Jesus to atone for their sins. Largely because when perfect justice as been executed, it will not be where they spend eternity.

[Dagan]

So basically, god gives everyone amnesia. Otherwise, people would hate him, and revolt.

 

I loled.

[Deva]

Windwalker, "justice" is purely a human concept. It does not exist in nature. How do you like that for certainty? In fact, it actually does not exist but we have to pretend it does in order to live in an orderly society as human beings. This notion of a perfectly just God doesnt' fly with me because outside the minds of humans it plainly does not exist. This is why Christians must have the final judgment at the end of time or after death. No way of disproving it to the ignorant masses, and an excellent way to keep them afraid and in line.

 

I read some of your essay on hell and I honestly say its nothing I haven't heard before. You do say at one point that it isn't eternal, which I wonder if you would expand upon. Gehenna was a burning garbage dump outside Jerusalem. We have heard it all before, its still fire and its still torture. There is no "Justice" even in theory there.

 

How can you be so sure what eternity will be like? All you have is the Bible and if that is discredited then you have nothing. The whole atonement nonsense is another part of the silliness. In fact, I shouldn't use the word "silly" in relation to it because of the damage it has done many people here. I am just out of it long enough that I do find it to be silly and its my wish that everyone still struggling with it would come to that place.

[Shyone]

 

If you want to know what eternity will be like I can and would be delighted to tell you what I know to be true about this topic, and I assure you that combined what I have already told you to be true about what scripture says about, that your fears about your loved ones who aren't followers of Jesus are largely unfounded fears.

 

That's so neat about Theology! You can change your mind and "poof!" Hell disappears, or it's not so bad, or it's separation, or it's annihilation, or EVERYBODY GETS TO GO TO HEAVEN!

 

Ain't that grand!

 

Just pick your verse, "interpret" and relax!

 

I think hell is sex all the time and everyone get's beautiful bodies and loves sex with no prejudice or pain, no disease, and if you want, you can play video games instead1

 

Heaven, IMO, is lying prostrate on a cold marble slab praising Yahwey, Jesus, and the rest of the gang endlessly with loud church music blaring continuously "without ceasing."

 

Please god, send me to hell.

[dagnarus]

The lake of fire mentioned in the Book of Revelation is a place that created for Satan and those angels that rebelled from Him, but it should be noted that "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire". Hell is not the lake of fire, however that is precisely what almost all churches do indeed teach (in error).

Revelation 20:15And if anyone's name was not found written in (AZ)the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Actually the Bible says that it's also for everybody who's name is not in the book of life. You err in thinking that God's concept of righteousness has to be based upon anything related to compassion and empathy, It doesn't.

 

As an aside, why should it be considered OK that Satan and his angels burn in hell for all eternity. Ultimately it's still sentient creatures being sentenced to an eternity of torment for finite crimes.

[Guest amazed]

I don't like the idea of hell either but that doesn't mean it does not exist. If the Bible is right that there is such a place of torment and punishment based on how we live here then its prudent to consider this. Christ warned that its better to lose one of your limbs and be crippled than to be cast into hell forever.

[Shyone]

I don't like the idea of hell either but that doesn't mean it does not exist. If the Bible is right that there is such a place of torment and punishment based on how we live here then its prudent to consider this. Christ warned that its better to lose one of your limbs and be crippled than to be cast into hell forever.

And if fear of hell is all that makes you honest and nonviolent, then you are indeed a pitiable person. Atheists have reasons that make sense, and in general we are also better behaved.

 

If the Koran is right that there is such a place of torment and punishment based on belief in the prophet Mohammed then it's prudent to consider this. Mohammed warned that its better to lose one of your limbs and be crippled than to be cast into hell forever.

 

Oops! Now what!? The two beliefs are mutually exclusive, so YOU'RE SCREWED!

 

Oh, and I like the idea of reincarnation, but that doesn't mean it exists.