Why Did Jesus Come 2,000 Years Ago (In Regards To Time)?

[Ouroboros]

Jesus supposedly came to Earth 2,000 years ago to fulfill some strange salvation plan God had cooked up.

 

Why then? Why in Rome?

 

Why not 5,000 years ago, just two days after Adam and Eve failed the test? Forever making sure that a majority of humanity would have heard the Gospel, and not giving the chance of global deluges or chosen people killing children and livestock.

 

Why not sometime the last 100 years when TV, movies, books, and Internet could have been used to spread the news faster? Imagine seeing God's son resurrected from the tomb, live, on public TV, over satellite, with 20,000,000 viewers--now we're talking serious number of eyewitnesses! Scientists testing Jesus spiritually metamorphosed body and observing him walking through walls. That's a wow factor beyond comprehension.

 

I mean, is there any theological reasoning behind that particular time being picked? I've heard some speculations, but I'm not sure they're any good.

[Snakefoot]

Damn good question. I had never thought of that.

 

Of course, apologists will come up with "gawd's timetable," "divine plan," "his thoughts are not our thoughts," and the rest of the usual cop-outs, ignoring logic, reason, and pragmatism.

 

In any event, "killer" question in every sense of the word.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks.

 

I've tried to be the devil's advocate by figuring out some apologist reasoning that would hold, but I can't come up with any.

[Shyone]

Thanks.

 

I've tried to be the devil's advocate by figuring out some apologist reasoning that would hold, but I can't come up with any.

FWIW, I had the same thoughts. Why the need for a "revision" or "new message"? Why have a chosen people in the first place, and why the Hebrews (instead of the Moabites or Edamites).

 

Jesus Christ Superstar raised the same questions about the difficulty spreading the message without electronic means of communication, as well as the rather unconvincing method of bringing the message.

 

Were all those stupid laws for nothing?

 

So it would appear.

[Ouroboros]

FWIW, I had the same thoughts. Why the need for a "revision" or "new message"? Why have a chosen people in the first place, and why the Hebrews (instead of the Moabites or Edamites).

Very true. And Moses was a revision of Abraham, which in turn was a revision of whatever came from Ur. Isn't it obvious how religion evolves, with culture and time?

 

Jesus Christ Superstar raised the same questions about the difficulty spreading the message without electronic means of communication, as well as the rather unconvincing method of bringing the message.

If God just had waited 2,000 years, he would be able to make sure the "original copy" was imprinted in titanium and protected by sharks with friggin' lasers on their heads. But no. He decided for some unknown reason to start the religion during a time when a truckload of other religions were started, and when people made up miracle stories about people anyway. It's kind of strange that God would choose a time when gullibility was so high and history as a science was just barely a toddler.

 

Were all those stupid laws for nothing?

The book of Romans cover that.

[Big.blue.nation]

Great point. I've heard Christopher Hitchens make a similar point in regards to the timing, implied: "Here we have 200,000 years of our history as a human race and why all of a sudden does he decide to show up 2,000 years ago?".

 

Tell you what I think; it's astrological (a story of the stars), that's why. The bible, both OT/NT is loaded with astrological/astronomical significance and the story of the savior "god-man" is no different. It was 2,000 years ago, because the stars in the sky dictated that.

[Ouroboros]

Blue, you're absolutely right. In a more secular view of Christianity, or in the view of the skeptic, I'd say that Christianity was influenced by astrology and the change into the age of pieces. That's why there are so many references to fish in the Gospels. Most of the disciples where fishermen, and the miracles of the bread and fish, etc. We are, or soon to be, in the new age, the age of Aquarius. Perhaps a new religion will be the dominant one for the next 2,000 years?

[oddbird1963]

I think most Christians will respond with a position that it was God's sovereign plan to "send" Jesus.

 

Galatians 4:4 - But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

 

That's the most that is developed in the Bible.

 

There are a few odd dispensationalists who say the their particular interpretation predicts the time of Christ's first coming.

 

But why 1st century Palestine was the chosen time is not covered anywhere that I can recall.

[Dagan]

Here's what I thought once. Bear in mind I write this from a "spiritual" perspective I no longer believe.

 

The ancient world was primed for Jesus because only a few hundred years earlier, Alexander the Great's cultural influence – and failed empire – made Greek the trade language spoken everywhere throughout the known world. And the rise of the Roman Empire brought a new stability and ability to travel from one end of the known world to another. That, plus a common language, was something which had never existed before, making it perfect timing for Jesus to come. His message could be spread from one end of the known world to the other, in a common language, with ease.

 

As well, from a prophetic perspective, the time was at hand for the messiah to come (isn't it always, depending on how you do the math?) and the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied to be soon (possibly after it happened, depending on which books you're looking at). So from a God's-eye view perspective, Jesus was the last and best prophet of God, the Jews' last chance, before God allowed Jerusalem and the old way of doing things to be destroyed, so he could use the new world – the Roman Empire and Greek and a revived, mission-oriented instead of introspective faith – to spread throughout the world.

 

Hope that makes sense. It did to me at the time.

[Tabula Rasa]

Tell you what I think; it's astrological (a story of the stars), that's why. The bible, both OT/NT is loaded with astrological/astronomical significance and the story of the savior "god-man" is no different. It was 2,000 years ago, because the stars in the sky dictated that.

 

Hmm, maybe Jesus couldn't enter our dimension until the "Stars were right"(ala the great old ones.).Nyahahaha.

[Ouroboros]

I think most Christians will respond with a position that it was God's sovereign plan to "send" Jesus.

 

Galatians 4:4 - But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

I just can't see what the "time fully come" really means.

 

Was it God's plan that the first Roman empire would be the best platform for his new religion? Why not any other empire? Why just that one?

 

The phrase doesn't explain anything. It's just redundant and circular. The time was right because the time was right. So why was the time right? Because it was right. Hmm...

 

That's the most that is developed in the Bible.

And it's not enough. I still think it would have been better for Jesus to come when there were only 10-15 people in the world. Save them all, once and for all. And gone with the deadly sin from start.

 

There are a few odd dispensationalists who say the their particular interpretation predicts the time of Christ's first coming.

 

But why 1st century Palestine was the chosen time is not covered anywhere that I can recall.

Right. Isn't that strange though? For God to plan all this and not explain it? (Of course the obvious answer is that there is no God. )

[Ouroboros]

Here's what I thought once. Bear in mind I write this from a "spiritual" perspective I no longer believe.

 

The ancient world was primed for Jesus because only a few hundred years earlier, Alexander the Great's cultural influence – and failed empire – made Greek the trade language spoken everywhere throughout the known world. And the rise of the Roman Empire brought a new stability and ability to travel from one end of the known world to another. That, plus a common language, was something which had never existed before, making it perfect timing for Jesus to come. His message could be spread from one end of the known world to the other, in a common language, with ease.

Well, that's one of the problems. According to the Bible the whole Earth spoke one language and had only one goal at one point earlier, the tower of Babel. Then God hated the idea of a common language and a united people. So why was that time bad, and then some thousand years later it was suddenly good? Wasn't it God's fault people didn't speak the same language to begin with?

 

As well, from a prophetic perspective, the time was at hand for the messiah to come (isn't it always, depending on how you do the math?) and the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied to be soon (possibly after it happened, depending on which books you're looking at). So from a God's-eye view perspective, Jesus was the last and best prophet of God, the Jews' last chance, before God allowed Jerusalem and the old way of doing things to be destroyed, so he could use the new world – the Roman Empire and Greek and a revived, mission-oriented instead of introspective faith – to spread throughout the world.

Well, it took 2,000 years later for it to spread, after the industrial revolution and the complete colonization of the planet. We're still finding desolate tribes we didn't know about in some jungles. So if the goal was to reach a maximum of people, now would be the perfect time, not 2,000 years before internet, phones, and cameras.

 

And if Jesus had come at the time of Moses, the Gospel would have been spread already by the time the Roman empire came to existence. (Since the Jews were everywhere in the empire.)

 

 

Hope that makes sense. It did to me at the time.

No. I'm afraid it doesn't.

 

Because the things said to be the parameters for the "perfect time" fits other times, and other times even have better conditions than that time. Today we can record and document things much more accurate, and we can spread the information faster, so it would be more efficient today.

 

But then the explanation would be that "more people got saved this way," which just makes it worse. If God was worried about the number of people saved, then he should have done it even earlier instead. So no, nothing makes really sense here.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Why in Rome?

 

Erm, it wasn't Rome. At least not according to the holey babble.

 

Why Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem?

[Ouroboros]

Why in Rome?

 

Erm, it wasn't Rome. At least not according to the holey babble.

 

Why Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem?

Sorry. I meant the Roman Empire.

[Legion]

Guys, guys this one's simple and you know it. Divine plan. Okay? Divine plan. God's understanding is not ours. He will do things when, in His Divine Judgement and Foresight, he sees fit. And though we cannot know God's mind we know that He sees all of time entire, as an instant and whole. He touches the tapestry as He wills.

[Snakefoot]

Why in Rome?

 

Erm, it wasn't Rome. At least not according to the holey babble.

 

Why Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem?

Sorry. I meant the Roman Empire.

Oo-oo! I know! I know!

 

It was because the Roman era was perfect whereby to inspire the xtian hatred of sex!

 

As depicted on this Roman token:

 

 

See? Romans, sex, xtianity...it all fits!

 

More cool Roman sex tokens here...

[Snakefoot]

Guys, guys this one's simple and you know it. Divine plan. Okay? Divine plan. God's understanding is not ours. He will do things when, in His Divine Judgement and Foresight, he sees fit. And though we cannot know God's mind we know that He sees all of time entire, as an instant and whole. He touches the tapestry as He wills.

See? I told you this would happen.

[Legion]

Guys, guys this one's simple and you know it. Divine plan. Okay? Divine plan. God's understanding is not ours. He will do things when, in His Divine Judgement and Foresight, he sees fit. And though we cannot know God's mind we know that He sees all of time entire, as an instant and whole. He touches the tapestry as He wills.

See? I told you this would happen.

But of course. It had to happen. It's the right answer.

[Snakefoot]

Guys, guys this one's simple and you know it. Divine plan. Okay? Divine plan. God's understanding is not ours. He will do things when, in His Divine Judgement and Foresight, he sees fit. And though we cannot know God's mind we know that He sees all of time entire, as an instant and whole. He touches the tapestry as He wills.

See? I told you this would happen.

But of course. It had to happen. It's the right answer.

Well...yeah...but you could have let it drag out a little longer.

 

Seriously, I find this topic (Jeebus and gawd's timing and all) quite interesting and definitely a cool new tool wherewith to whup up on apologists.

[mwc]

Why not 5,000 years ago, just two days after Adam and Eve failed the test? Forever making sure that a majority of humanity would have heard the Gospel, and not giving the chance of global deluges or chosen people killing children and livestock.

Are you daft man?

 

Here's the story:

Genesis 3

 

7 And their eyes were open and they were conscious that they had no clothing and they made themselves coats of leaves stitched together. 8 And there came to them the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening wind: and the man and his wife went to a secret place among the trees of the garden, away from the eyes of the Lord God.

 

9 And the voice of the Lord God came to the man, saying, Where are you? 10 And he said, Hearing your voice in the garden I was full of fear, because I was without clothing: and I kept myself from your eyes. 11 And he said, Who gave you the knowledge that you were without clothing? Have you taken of the fruit of the tree which I said you were not to take? 12 And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me the fruit of the tree and I took it. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman, What have you done? And the woman said, I was tricked by the deceit of the snake and I took it.

God shows up immediately after they made little fig leaf clothes for themselves. You can't do much better than that on this timing.

 

He then quizzes all three of the parties involved so that the actually have to say what they did aloud (not that he didn't know). He then just forgives them. And they all lived happily ever after. The End.

 

What do you guys want? For the virgin Eve to give birth to "jesus?" For him to grow up and preach them repentance and faith. Then for them to find him guilty of a crime he didn't commit. Then to whip him until he was a bloody mess. Then to crucify him as a sacrifice to the very "god" that would, in all likelihood, be standing right there watching. Then bury him, wait a day or so, and then not believe he came back to life only to watch him fly up to heaven (along with his dad because they've seen him come and go any number of times). Then wait for "jesus" to return to judge them? Is that what you want? Well that's just stupid. You need far more people for this sort of plan to make any sense at all.

 

mwc

[Franko47]

Actually, the whole Jesus thing is really an attempt to create a new sectarian offshoot of Judaism. Later hijacked by Paul so that the gentiles could have monotheism.

 

The whole history of religion usually involves "new" gods usurping "old" ones. I believe in the end this was no different. This was to be a "new" religion to replace the worn-out Jew-controlled original.

 

The invention of the Trinity is a nice device to tie it all together; and hooking up OT and NT gives nice continuity, but in the end it's the same old game.

 

The non-jews ripped off their religion, and called it Christianity. Then they persecuted the "Jews" forever after, without even a break. Every new step in the evolution of a new religion is usually lethal to it's predecessor.

 

There will be no charge for this post.

[Legion]

There will be no charge for this post.

[Snakefoot]

Why not 5,000 years ago, just two days after Adam and Eve failed the test? Forever making sure that a majority of humanity would have heard the Gospel, and not giving the chance of global deluges or chosen people killing children and livestock.

Are you daft man?

 

Here's the story:

Genesis 3

 

7 And their eyes were open and they were conscious that they had no clothing and they made themselves coats of leaves stitched together. 8 And there came to them the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening wind: and the man and his wife went to a secret place among the trees of the garden, away from the eyes of the Lord God.

 

9 And the voice of the Lord God came to the man, saying, Where are you? 10 And he said, Hearing your voice in the garden I was full of fear, because I was without clothing: and I kept myself from your eyes. 11 And he said, Who gave you the knowledge that you were without clothing? Have you taken of the fruit of the tree which I said you were not to take? 12 And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me the fruit of the tree and I took it. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman, What have you done? And the woman said, I was tricked by the deceit of the snake and I took it.

God shows up immediately after they made little fig leaf clothes for themselves. You can't do much better than that on this timing.

 

He then quizzes all three of the parties involved so that the actually have to say what they did aloud (not that he didn't know). He then just forgives them. And they all lived happily ever after. The End.

 

What do you guys want? For the virgin Eve to give birth to "jesus?" For him to grow up and preach them repentance and faith. Then for them to find him guilty of a crime he didn't commit. Then to whip him until he was a bloody mess. Then to crucify him as a sacrifice to the very "god" that would, in all likelihood, be standing right there watching. Then bury him, wait a day or so, and then not believe he came back to life only to watch him fly up to heaven (along with his dad because they've seen him come and go any number of times). Then wait for "jesus" to return to judge them? Is that what you want? Well that's just stupid. You need far more people for this sort of plan to make any sense at all.

 

mwc

Sounds like a good plan to me. I like it.

 

New Denomination: Church of the Holy Adamic Mother

[Dagan]

Here's what I thought once. Bear in mind I write this from a "spiritual" perspective I no longer believe.

 

The ancient world was primed for Jesus because only a few hundred years earlier, Alexander the Great's cultural influence – and failed empire – made Greek the trade language spoken everywhere throughout the known world. And the rise of the Roman Empire brought a new stability and ability to travel from one end of the known world to another. That, plus a common language, was something which had never existed before, making it perfect timing for Jesus to come. His message could be spread from one end of the known world to the other, in a common language, with ease.

Well, that's one of the problems. According to the Bible the whole Earth spoke one language and had only one goal at one point earlier, the tower of Babel. Then God hated the idea of a common language and a united people. So why was that time bad, and then some thousand years later it was suddenly good? Wasn't it God's fault people didn't speak the same language to begin with?

 

I guess one could argue in return that men already had the recent knowledge of God at the time of the Tower of Babel, they had not fallen or forgotten for so long. And I guess one could also argue that Babel was before the covenant with Abraham -- God had given up on humanity, and didn't really give a crap until he met this fine fellow Abe. So God's redemptive plan for humanity only really began with Abraham.

 

As well, from a prophetic perspective, the time was at hand for the messiah to come (isn't it always, depending on how you do the math?) and the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied to be soon (possibly after it happened, depending on which books you're looking at). So from a God's-eye view perspective, Jesus was the last and best prophet of God, the Jews' last chance, before God allowed Jerusalem and the old way of doing things to be destroyed, so he could use the new world – the Roman Empire and Greek and a revived, mission-oriented instead of introspective faith – to spread throughout the world.

Well, it took 2,000 years later for it to spread, after the industrial revolution and the complete colonization of the planet. We're still finding desolate tribes we didn't know about in some jungles. So if the goal was to reach a maximum of people, now would be the perfect time, not 2,000 years before internet, phones, and cameras.

 

And if Jesus had come at the time of Moses, the Gospel would have been spread already by the time the Roman empire came to existence. (Since the Jews were everywhere in the empire.)

 

One could argue that once God chose his people through Abraham, they were meant to be his living word, to show all nations around them what it meant to follow God, and they could follow or die. The friendlier gospel through Jesus only came after the chosen nation of God thing didn't work out. God had to come up with a new plan, a spiritual nation instead of a physical one, and the command to preach to everyone only matters to Jesus. Pre-Jesus, no one gave a crap. It was either be born a Jew, or die forever.

 

And it's taken 2,000 years for Jesus to come back because humans are sinful and slow and self-interested and haven't been focusing on spreading the gospel everywhere to all those little tribes that we keep finding.

 

Hope that makes sense. It did to me at the time.

No. I'm afraid it doesn't.

 

Because the things said to be the parameters for the "perfect time" fits other times, and other times even have better conditions than that time. Today we can record and document things much more accurate, and we can spread the information faster, so it would be more efficient today.

 

But then the explanation would be that "more people got saved this way," which just makes it worse. If God was worried about the number of people saved, then he should have done it even earlier instead. So no, nothing makes really sense here.

I know, I agree with you, it's stupid. Why does God have to dick around with strange plans that make no practical sense, like taking one tribe of nitwits and making them his chosen people to be an example, but no one around them really cares and it doesn't matter really unless you're born or marry into it, and then when that doesn't work using a combination of sketchy prophets, incomplete documents and madmen to spread the most important news ever?

 

I have never got any good answers for this question, either. I'm merely trying to explain what I once believed, and why it made sense at the time. Again, please remember I'm playing God's advocate here, I don't believe any of this stuff anymore or defend it in any way.

[Ouroboros]

Again, please remember I'm playing God's advocate here, I don't believe any of this stuff anymore or defend it in any way.

Oh, I know you do. I'm not really arguing you but the arguments themselves.