Shame, Again...

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I looked for threads on shame and the closest I found to my question was this, which is years old, so I'm starting another one.

 

I guess due to being triggered by some other things going on, lately I have had to deal with really bad bouts of shame (or guilt, maybe, but it doesn't seem linked to anything specific) and self-deprecation that have been very difficult to deal with. When I talked about the feelings with my therapist we ended up talking about worm theology, which I picked up somehow while growing up. I'm wondering if anybody else has dealt with something similar, especially if you successfully stopped this kind of thinking.

 

I know it's likely to be just leftover crap and that I don't have to believe it, but the feelings have continued -- sometimes very badly -- despite more positive self-talk.

[Deva]

I have worked with the "worm theology" thing my entire life. If you are raised with it and you buy into it, it is very hard to eradicate. Probably the most difficult thing was recognizing the extent to which it permeated my thoughts. Not only was I raised with this type of theology from childhood, my mother conveyed it to me on a daily basis through her attitudes toward herself. Mind you, I was much too young to realize what was going on at the time.

 

I cannot claim to be completely free of it even now, but I will say I think I have made some progress in some areas. For me it is more the self-deprecation thing than guilt. The shame part centers around the body image deal and that is something I have to work on - it is deeply ingrained.

 

Through ten years plus of studying eastern type religious thought, where these ideas of "worm theology" are unknown, daily study and now Buddhist practice, has helped a lot.

 

I really believe this is the most damaging part of Christianity.

[lunaticheathen]

Every day. Nearly every moment. It was made worse going to a baptist school where they blamed EVERYTHING on females. I was EXTRA worthless because I have a vagina. Compound that with the fact I had doubts, I questioned their "logic", I was worse than other people, who are filthy little bits of trash in the all-glory that is White Republican Jeebus. This school of thought led me to attempt suicide.

Goddess worship has helped me through bouts of suicidal thoughts since then. I still cry over my goddess shrine. I struggle every day with the damage that fucking school and that fucking religion has done to me. I hate them for making me hate myself.

[dichotomy]

I haven't heard of worm theology and will go and have a look in a minute, but thought I'd add my thoughts beforehand.

 

I've just been talking through some things with someone today and a couple of times she said she felt I was taking on too much responsibility for things and beating myself up about stuff from the past. And it struck me that I was feeling regret and guilt and shame for decisions I'd made and attitudes I've had that I shouldn't really be feeling like that about, they just happened. It's never occurred to me much before how I have this self deprecating, I'm worthless, inadequate, guilt ridden, incapable of ever making the *right* or even just a *good* decision for myself attitude for years and it's quite crippling. Especially when logically you know it's ridiculous to feel and act this way but it's almost a force of habit.

 

I believe I referred to the shit that is christianity as my answer to her question of why I keep doing this.

[dichotomy]

Oh well that explains a lot.

 

I did a google search and found this, which seems to be a Christian parenting site, but that particular article/page basically explains how I viewed myself and indeed still do and is asking parents not to fall into that trap. The worry is though, that it's not just what your parents tell you, my mum never made me feel like that, but my dad and the church did, especially a couple of predominant characters in my teens.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Thanks very much, everyone, for your replies.

 

Every day. Nearly every moment. It was made worse going to a baptist school where they blamed EVERYTHING on females. I was EXTRA worthless because I have a vagina. Compound that with the fact I had doubts, I questioned their "logic", I was worse than other people, who are filthy little bits of trash in the all-glory that is White Republican Jeebus. This school of thought led me to attempt suicide.

Goddess worship has helped me through bouts of suicidal thoughts since then. I still cry over my goddess shrine. I struggle every day with the damage that fucking school and that fucking religion has done to me. I hate them for making me hate myself.

 

Ye Gods. About 20 years ago I could have written something very similar. (I didn't go to a Baptist school, though.)

 

My self-deprecation does not seem to be focused on being female, either. It's the "filthy little bits of trash" that I completely identify with. It's more about being here at all, I guess.

 

LunaticHeathen, I can tell you that things do get better with time.

 

BTW, Paganism was a huge breath of fresh air for me as well. Very healing.

 

This business of shame/self-hatred, though... sometimes it still re-surfaces despite vast improvements in other areas of life, I found.

 

The worry is though, that it's not just what your parents tell you, my mum never made me feel like that, but my dad and the church did, especially a couple of predominant characters in my teens.

I cannot yet pinpoint exactly where I was exposed to "worm theology" aside from general fundamentalist teachings such as that all have sinned, everyone deserves hell, and there is nothing you can do about it... other than rely on Jesus. I remember vividly a few childhood and teen Maundy Thursday and Good Friday services where the guilt/shame and subsequent gratitude for Jesus' sacrifice was really intense.

[Franko47]

And as we speak, there are countries in the world that will brutally punish a woman for being a rape victim...

 

Men and religion. Not a good combo, especially when they dominate it.

 

 

To neglect the feminist aspect of spiritualism and/or a Divinity is to reject one half of the human race.

 

 

Eventually this will lead to a major fail for traditional Christianity, Islam, and all it's derivatives.

 

Religion is about power, it's always been about power. Who dominates and who submits.

 

I don't know whether misogyny is hard-wired into the male mind, or a conditioned thing.

 

Sorry, ladies. I don't even know where to start.

[Xerces]

I haven't heard of worm theology before, but I was always told that without god that was a wretched sinner that needed the forgiveness of the father up above or I'd be sent to hell when I died. I was always degrading myself anytime I "sinned" because I wanted to have the up most loyalty to my "savior". I essentially wanted to be the best xtian possible, it was even worse because I thought if I could just be the perfect xtian I could fix all the crap in my life because my ultimate "faith" would prove to god that I wasn't just putting him on the shelf.

 

I fucking hate xtianity because it taught me that I wasn't allowed to be me, I had to do my best to not "sin" to show others an accurate representation of xtianity and to save my own ass. I can't tell you the numerous times I went through being depressed because I couldn't live up to the high standards of xtianity. Fuck that shit.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I haven't heard of worm theology before, but I was always told that without god that was a wretched sinner that needed the forgiveness of the father up above or I'd be sent to hell when I died. I was always degrading myself anytime I "sinned" because I wanted to have the up most loyalty to my "savior".

Yes, yes, and again yes. I was taught and did exactly this, also.

 

I did not hear the term "worm theology" until years after I got out, but it fits perfectly.

 

I fucking hate xtianity because it taught me that I wasn't allowed to be me, I had to do my best to not "sin" to show others an accurate representation of xtianity and to save my own ass. I can't tell you the numerous times I went through being depressed because I couldn't live up to the high standards of xtianity. Fuck that shit.

I completely understand this.

[dichotomy]

I haven't heard of worm theology before, but I was always told that without god that was a wretched sinner that needed the forgiveness of the father up above or I'd be sent to hell when I died. I was always degrading myself anytime I "sinned" because I wanted to have the up most loyalty to my "savior". I essentially wanted to be the best xtian possible, it was even worse because I thought if I could just be the perfect xtian I could fix all the crap in my life because my ultimate "faith" would prove to god that I wasn't just putting him on the shelf.

 

I fucking hate xtianity because it taught me that I wasn't allowed to be me, I had to do my best to not "sin" to show others an accurate representation of xtianity and to save my own ass. I can't tell you the numerous times I went through being depressed because I couldn't live up to the high standards of xtianity. Fuck that shit.

 

Yup, I can identify with and understand all that too.

[freecanadian]

"The shame part centers around the body image deal and that is something I have to work on - it is deeply ingrained."

When I look back on my life, I see a conspiracy of forces that worked together to try to form me into a compliant female. Christianity, sexism and psychology make up the 3 pronged stool that the ideal North American woman sits on.

[godlessgrrl]

Shame? Oh my yes, in heaping massive truckloads of it. Guilt and shame are a family legacy; they were part and parcel of venerated parenting traditions passed down over the generations, mostly from the UK side of the family. Christianity was a part of it in some way, whether by direct indoctrination of earlier generations, or filtered down indirectly through cultural institutions influenced by religious thought. (Mom was an agnostic for most of my life, but she laid on the guilt pretty damn thick.)

 

And oh yes, I do indeed still deal with it. Most of the time it manifests these days as a deep, unshakable self-doubt. On good days I'm simply not convinced that I'm good at anything at all. On bad days I'm ashamed to exist.

 

And as we speak, there are countries in the world that will brutally punish a woman for being a rape victim...

 

Interesting you should mention this.

 

Shame after being sexually assaulted was key to my initial conversion to Xianity. Nobody did anything extreme like try to kill me for shaming the family. But you bet your sweet bippy nobody believed I'd been violated, either. The adults around me didn't recognize what had happened, so blamed and shamed me for it. I converted in large part because I was desperate for some sort of redemption: I didn't want to be the dirty little whore people believed I was.

 

If there were no such thing as sexual shame, maybe I never would have become a Xian in the first place.

[Snowflake]

I hadn't heard of worm theology, either, but it's a great description of Christianity. Yes, shame is there every single day, telling me what a shit bag I am and guilt is there telling me how bad I'm fucking up my kids by not being good enough. Coming from an alcoholic family system doesn't help matters either, I suppose, another shame based system with its own baggage.

 

I battle recurrent, major depression that has been treatment resistant, so depending on how successful I've been with the current medications and therapy for depression will also affect how much shame and guilt I feel. Due to lack of money I've had to drop therapy so lately it's been pretty bad.

[StevoMuso]

Good thread this, and eye-opening.

 

I've had the whole "worm" thing my whole life, and still have it on a sub-conscious level. It surfaces every now and again mainly in the field of poverty. We were taught that the "rich cannot enter Heaven" and "sell all you have" and "the root of all evil" and all that shit. I have struggled with a "poverty mentality" for many years and still cannot seem to shake the effects even 14 years into my freedom from Christianity. It still feels shameful for me to earn money, or become financially successful. I probably need help with this - professional psychological help - I'm afraid of wealth and I think it comes from this "worm theology" concept.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

 

Shame after being sexually assaulted was key to my initial conversion to Xianity. Nobody did anything extreme like try to kill me for shaming the family. But you bet your sweet bippy nobody believed I'd been violated, either. The adults around me didn't recognize what had happened, so blamed and shamed me for it. I converted in large part because I was desperate for some sort of redemption: I didn't want to be the dirty little whore people believed I was.

 

If there were no such thing as sexual shame, maybe I never would have become a Xian in the first place.

 

I was assaulted this way when I was 8 and like you the shame of it drove me to be baptized and embrace christianity in hopes of finding redemption. It worked a bit while I was still a child but shame and self loathing quickly overcame it. When I was assaulted a second time at 15 I was nearly at my breaking point. Yet it hastened my leaving christianity and its god. The shame remained for quite some time as I felt utterly worthless because I could not give my future husband my virginity (wherein lies the worth of a woman of course). I have gotten over that mindset and am left with anger that it was ever pounded into me in the first place.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

It surfaces every now and again mainly in the field of poverty. We were taught that the "rich cannot enter Heaven" and "sell all you have" and "the root of all evil" and all that shit. I have struggled with a "poverty mentality" for many years and still cannot seem to shake the effects even 14 years into my freedom from Christianity. It still feels shameful for me to earn money, or become financially successful.

 

Hmm... I recall sincerely believing that sort of thing also, but on the flip side, I did not grow up in poverty so I did not learn this by example from my family (although they were strong believers). At this point in my career I'm now doing reasonably well financially. I wonder if something along these lines is one of the reasons I have a really hard time inviting people to my house. In some sense I feel ashamed of it and I'm wondering if this has something to do with it. I know just being sort-of a natural loner is also part of it, but that doesn't explain the literal shame I feel when someone comes over.

 

I have never voiced that before.

[Ancey]

Did anyone else notice at the bottom of the worm theology page is a large spew of text about how the worm theology is all wrong and that "God's complete and total foriveness flies in the face of 'Worm Theology'." and also says "But there is a difference for those who are Christians. In Christ we (the saved, born again believers in Jesus) are new creatures."

 

Not quite neutral- do suggest deletion. :/

 

I get little moments of irrationality every once in a while, I don't think I've gotten much shame from it, likely from my lack of exposure to the worse sides of Christianity. But I do have a friend whose whole family was depressed from their Church and so they stopped going altogether.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Did anyone else notice at the bottom of the worm theology page is a large spew of text about how the worm theology is all wrong and that "God's complete and total foriveness flies in the face of 'Worm Theology'." and also says "But there is a difference for those who are Christians. In Christ we (the saved, born again believers in Jesus) are new creatures."

No, I didn't read that part. But I'm not surprised. "Worm theology" is not the only Christian theology out there. Some are very, very opposed to it and emphasize God's love for people over every other idea. It's nearly impossible to believe in hell, the work done on the cross, or think that not everyone will be saved without some form of worm theology, though... unless one is the kind of Christian who believes that God loves only some people.

 

Not quite neutral- do suggest deletion. :/

I agree. I guess some Christians might think that "worm theology" itself is not a neutral or accurate view of Christianity, though. I am guessing that's why someone wrote that section.

 

Perhaps a more neutral presentation of the fact that there are different ways Christians think of this issue would be more accurate.