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  2. Welcome aboard NuckChorris! You came at an interesting time. I am currently engaged with a christian member (was two against me, but one already quit) in an informal debate about the bible and whether it's demonstrably true, or demonstrably false. And we're three pages in at this point and haven't left Genesis 1. I invite you to follow along and check in on the debate as it unfolds and see what points you can glean from the interaction between christians and atheists: Luth has some personal issues to attend to at the moment, but I believe he will be getting back to the debate when he can. Christforums is apparently shut down and out of it already. We're still held up on the six day creation and all of it's contradictions and problems. I suppose that next we can face the issue of Adam and Eve not knowing of any good and evil prior to eating the forbidden fruit. But as you can see if you read along and follow the links, Genesis was written during a time when reflections of the old polytheism still existed. The "gods" (Elohim) were something like Zeus and the greek pantheon, looking down on the earth, creating a garden, then putting some workers in the garden to tend to the garden. They created the garden workers in "their" (Elohim, gods) own image according to "their" own likeness. This mythology is not very different than Zeus and the gods creating people in "their" (humanoid) images. Then you can see why the workers were not meant to have the knowledge of the gods, just to simply tend and work a garden, forever I assume. Once they gained the knowledge, they would be like the "gods," and the "gods" didn't want that. It all makes sense when it's put back into it's mythological context. You can post in the side gallery if you want raise any points about the debate, ask questions, or include some type of question for the christian member.
  3. It is important that the person knows that they're being prayed for. We all know that god is a triune god. So when someone prays to just god the connection to the person in need may, or may not, happen. It's all best effort after all. But when the person is informed the connection is more likely to happen since both god and the spirit within that person are now aware of the prayer and the proper link is more likely to be established so the spell can take place. mwc
  4. Yes, you are fortunate- congratulations on clearing your head at a young age! Never stop thinking critically - even outside of religion it’s easy to swallow a line of bullshit because you want it to be true, or because people you like believe it. It’s as true in politics as it is in religion. Where to begin? How about the supposed Old Testament predictions of Jesus... many Christians believe that the OT clearly predicts Jesus and Christianity. But when you look at the Old Testament passages that are quoted in the NT, you generally find one or two verses that could fit Jesus and his ministry, surrounded by other verses that don’t fit at all. I suggest you could take just about any historical event or person and lift OT verses here and there out of context to show how it was foretold.
  5. Today
  6. Mormonism was totally made up by just some dude to scam everyone. Plus magic underwear. And polygamy. Christianity was brought to us by a 100% human/100% god, in human form, in order to give us salvation if we believe he died for a weekend. I think the difference is clear. mwc
  7. God fully punished Adam, Eve and the serpent at the time of the transgression. Everyone is fully aware of this. In short Adam had to work the land, Eve had the pain in pregnancy and the serpent lost its legs and got to eat dirt. All this while being tossed out of the garden (since they were gardeners this was no good). Oh, and they couldn't eat from the Tree of Life which was a secret right up until then. This is the same thing with Cain and Abel. God comes to Cain and explains to him what sin is just prior to his killing Abel. He explains that it is like a beast crouching at the door and it is something that he can overcome. These things are far different from later interpretations. The idea that people are a slave to sin makes no sense compared to what GOD himself says here. I know that old jesus says this but they're not compatible ideas. And he's not original anyhow. These ideas probably come from some earlier Jewish writings. Anyhow, god says one is there is a wild beast (of some sort) that you can defeat if you fight against it and the other is you're enslaved by a master who you must serve and cannot easily escape through your own will. Essentially, one is a matter of personal will power and the other is an external power. The way the story is laid out god comes to the first person who is actually going to sin because it's the perfect opportunity to make this explanation of the nature of sin. In real life the best way to do this would have been to tell someone who now has a "sin nature"' is when you curse them with that nature. That doesn't happen in the story. Their punishment includes no such thing. Sin isn't explained that way and is only introduced just prior to the fratricide where it is relevant. mwc
  8. Hi NuckC. Glad you got out. Oddly the most powerful revelation regarding my deconversion came more than 50 years after the fact. I stumbled upon this site and became fascinated by the large number of exchristians who were in so many ways just like me. At the time quite a few christians would also stop by and comment in the main area so this provided an opportunity for me to see their arguments. When I deconverted at 15 I believed as I had been told that there were many good historical, archeological, logical, etc. proofs for the truth of the bible and christianity. I had known at 15 that whatever these proofs were they would not convince me but now with the anonomous nature of the internet I would have a chance to see these proofs for myself and I was excited by the prospect. Well about 2 or 3 years after joining I was getting impatient to see some of these proofs so I finally put a comment on something the very reasonable long term ExC member WisenedSage had written asking what was the most convincing piece of evidence he had come across in all his years on this site in support of truth of Christianity. His answer was shocking to me in that it didn't have any proof in the ordinary sense. His answer was that he felt the King James translation of the bible was christianity's most powerful convincing force rather than a specific proof! No proof! So my discovery was that there is not even a single compelling proof of Christianity. I know that sounds impossible with all the appolegetic books and all the public debates but I think I can show you. How about if I show you how this would played out in a US courtroom? It just so happens that i believe I can do just that if you have a couple hours to devote to watching the PBS documentary, "Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial", on the 2005 Kitzmiller v Dover Area School Board trial. Nova has taken it down but here it is on a youtube:
  9. None of us actually believed anything. We were just cultural christians. Like all fake believers in the fake religions. We just believed because everyone else believed. We didn't believe because god chose us out to believe. Or because the spirit was in us which gave us faith. We were just impostors. Not like real believers who really have the spirit. And can prove it because they, um, they...hmmm...they, well they just do because they know they do. Anyhow, the most important thing is to get the numbers down to 144,000 in total. That's all the room in that's available in that mighty heavenly mansion. God has always been sort-sighted with his grand schemes. mwc
  10. This one of those issues that pushes the claim making christian back into an uncomfortable corner when the questions start coming back. What if the blog poster in a year or two sees the light and stops believing the bible is true? Then they may have to finally reflect on whether or not they were ever a true christian. They likely were, in terms of believing whatever interpretation of christianity they believed in. And then perhaps the person could draft a new blog detailing how mistaken they were while under the mental direction of "cult-think."
  11. Your understanding of your situation and what you've written about it here is flawless Xtina. I believe you understand your new relationship with this man as well as it could be understood. It looks to me like your inner self is telling you to get out . Reread what you have written and see what you think you are saying to yourself. With someone who is lucky enough to think as clearly as you do my advice is always to listen to yourself and follow your instincts. Trust yourself and see where that takes you. Don't allow a half crazy person to take away a substantial portion of who you could (should?) be. This is the only chance you're going to get to find out who you are. You partner seems to be a hopelessly lost sole. I seriously believe living by yourself would be a tremendous upgrade to attempting to drag this guy along with you. If you just give yourself a chance you may very well surprise yourself with how fulfilling and fun being you turns out to be. Good luck Xtina. I'm glad you chose to bring your story to us and please keep us in the loop for at least a while and let us know however you decide to proceed.
  12. Thanks for the replies everyone. Just knowing that random people heard my story and can relate is very helpful. It's wild to me that so many people have had to go through this on their own, and that churches have done such a terrible job in being aware of the potential harm that can come from these strict and lazy teachings. You'd think that if they're so convinced that they're right, they would teach the atheist point of view just to show how wrong it is. Instead, indoctrination locks you in to one lens, and hides or misrepresents the other sides. The fact that I have, at 27 years old, just learned for myself the actual atheist arguments is unacceptable and demonstrates the close-mindedness of even the most well-intending Christians. And I can also say I feel lucky that it only took me 27 years to deconvert. I can't imagine what some of you have gone through by deconverting later in life, having kids and spouses, or having been pastors. So I'll try to count my blessings haha. I just ordered the book Leaving the Fold, hoping it will help me improve my mental state and get life back on track now that I've addressed most of my lingering doubts. One open question I have for you guys is what were some of the glaring issues you noticed about the validity of the Bible? One funny point I just heard was by Matt Dillahunty, he asks a caller, how could Adam and Eve know that disobeying God was wrong if they didn't yet have the knowledge of good and evil, which they got by eating the fruit?
  13. Matt Dillahunty and Eric Murphy. Viewer calls. Matt and Eric take calls. View the full article
  14. Yesterday
  15. @Xtina, I signed up for the crazy 20+ years ago whilst dating Mrs. MOHO. It wasn't too awful as, at the time, she was not an over-the-top, in-your-face, totally controlled by Jesus, proselytizing Xtian. But now she is. OK, there are weeks when it's bad and weeks when she just goes to church on Sunday. But the God Virus is there to stay and it influences her decision making process which, in turn, negatively impacts our life together. The most annoying/harmful is the hopee, prayee thing instead of taking the reins and implementing a solution to problems. It has been my personal experience that the fundies that give God/Jesus credit for overcoming their addiction(s) are the most obnoxious and least likely to recover from their new found addiction. After all - they have daily support from the rest of the crazy crowd. If you are not religious then beat it! I know 9 years is a lot to throw away but do you really want to wait another 9 years only to watch him stay in the crazy? Do you really have time left in your life to throw some of it away when you could find a non-religious person to enjoy THIS life with? - MOHO (Mind Of HIs Own)
  16. I agree that one's frame of mind can affect body healing. Attitude and belief are important. I doubt Jesus is involved. It also would seem that when you jack yourself up on dopamine in a church worship situation the euphoria probably hides some symptoms temporarily. I do fully understand that if prayer actually worked for everything that we wanted it to work for then we would not need modern medicine. I know it won't regrow limbs and apparently causes heart patients to do worse (haha), but there may be some uses for it. Still , I doubt Jesus is involved.
  17. Interesting point. I think there is research that indicates a person's frame of mind can affect body healing. Pessimistic or despondent people fare worse than optimistic and positive people. Thus prayer might work for a religious person because they feel happier and think God will heal them. However in one study people who knew they were being prayed for fared worse... a stage fight effect? In my personal experience one would immediately feel better after being prayed for and some people even reported being healed immediately. However once out of the influence of the church members and back home reality would kick in and the condition would come back... to be prayed away the next week.
  18. @TABA exactly - how could you ever have security about your eternal fate? And this author is a Calvinist I’m assuming per the Edwards quote, so I’m even more confused!!
  19. If that blog post is to be believed, no Christian can be sure that they are truly Christians, truly saved: you can commit your life to Christ, study the Bible, live the best life you can, bring others to Jesus - and none of it may matter anyway. What happened to the assurance and peace that Christian faith is supposed to bring? This doesn’t seem like a good way to win people over to Christianity. In fact I’d say it’s the most dramatic own-goal I’ve seen on the part of a Christian apologist.
  20. By the way, Caedmon's Call had some pretty good music (at least the early stuff I'm familiar with), definitely much better than most Christian music. I'll have to check out Derek's latest release and see what it's like.
  21. Ironically, I would have agreed with that blog post when I was a Christian. I made essentially the same arguments. Yet, here I am now, evidence that it's poppycock. The real problem with that line of "reasoning" is that they refuse to even remotely consider the possibility that they could be the ones who are wrong, that maybe, just maybe, Christianity really isn't true after all. They want everyone of every other belief system to consider the possibility that they're wrong, but they refuse to do it themselves. Been there, done that, and I've since then grown to realize that that attitude is the biggest stumbling-block there is to finding truth.
  22. Fair points! I think it touches a nerve because I grew up believing in the truth of Christianity completely but never had experiences of my own, even when I was prayed over etc., which always left me with this insecurity about whether I was truly saved - so it’s triggering to find that some Christians actually think that people can believe it and ask Jesus into their heart but not experience true saving belief from God. It plays on all my insecurities. But then with this way of thinking, how does this person know they won’t turn out never to have been a true Christian in 10/20/30/40 years’ time? How could you ever have eternal security, like Calvinists like the author supposedly do?
  23. Here's a play list of their previous album. It's also pretty darn good.
  24. Here's one of my favorite recent discoveries. I'd never heard of Kingcrow until fellow ex-c member Storm told me about them a couple months ago. This is a fantastic album.
  25. As many times as this comes up, is as many times that it will remain a "No True Scotsman Fallacy." These were never, "true christians." <snipped from article> This is one of the many problems with cult mentality. They can not fathom any other options. Setting up false dichotomies is the go to. Let's also look at option 1) about "biblical truth." What is "biblical truth?" I am currently pressing two of our christian members to justify the claim that the bible is true to begin with. Currently, the one who runs www.christforums.com completely folded and quit trying to prove the bible true as of Genesis 1. He can't do it, we are left to assume. The second member is a youtuber and he's trying to do what he can to demonstrate "the truth" of the bible, but as of yet hasn't been able able to demonstrate that it is true. It boils down to believing something is true which can't be demonstrated as true: https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/82275-luthamf-verses-joshpantera-informal/ So what is this fallacious "true christian" anyways? Someone who believes the bible and jesus are true, when all evidence points to the contrary, and which will never change their mind no matter what and no matter how much they mature, grow, investigate and think for themselves? What else could it be? It sounds more to me like "true credulousness." And besides, fuck'em. Who cares if cult-like church members think that people who left the church were never "true" members of the church in the first place? 1280 × 7 This
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