asdf99 Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Its been awhile since I've been on this forum. Hello everyone! I need some encouragement and advice. In a nutshell: I have been an ex-christian for about 7 years or so. I almost immediately told my ex-wife in 2001. This was a huge cause for our divorce. We separated in 2002, officially divorced in 2003. Soon after this I met the woman that should have been my first wife. In 2004 we moved in together. In 2005 we bought a house together. This same year I came out of the closet to my parents about being an ex-christian. I must also mention my parents live in the west, and we live in the east so there are 1100 miles between us. I don't see them that often. Anyway.... They didn't take the news so well. Ever since that talk our relationship has not been the same. What used to be bi-weekly calls or more, turned into weeks in between. I could really feel the cold shoulders and that hurt. They seemed to get a little bit better as time passed. I stress a little bit. Now in 2006 we are expecting a child in March of next year. We are not married and have no plans to get married. This has caused my parents allot of shame. And now the baby, its like throwing gasoline into the fire. Its been about a month now that we told them about the pregnancy. They were speechless on the phone and then it turned into an ugly fight over the phone. We haven't spoken since. I am not sure what to do. I feel like its their problem, not mine. Its not my fault they are not happy with the decisions that I have made in my life. Its so ironic, my significant others family lives in our town and they are so happy for us. Everyone here is happy for us. Its just my parents that seem like they've shunned me. I don't want to pick up the phone and call them because I feel like its on them to make the first call back. I feel like I cant share details about the pregnancy with them because of the last call. I'm not sure what to do. I woke up with insomnia and am typing this. My heart hurts thinking about the whole thing. I don't want it to be this way. Anyone else out there get shunned by their loved ones?? I hate an aching heart. Please respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 I've given this talk a few times... Family is as family does. If they don't behave as family, then they ain't. Family loves you the way you are (and the way they made you) whether you do what they think you should do, or you chop up strangers and have sex with the body parts. Family are the people who stick with you when the shit hits the fan, the ones who help when no one else will. If blood relatives don't then they are not family, just people you share some genetic traits with. People say 'blood is thicker than water'... it's horse shit, although physically quite accurate... blood is just iron tainted brine if the people you share it with don't behave like it means something. In the long run, you don't need losers, users, or manipulators in your life. And in the end game, it's your parent's loss if you drop them like a hot brick. They lose a child and a grandchild, all by their own efforts. Make sure they know that. BTW... I don't say that the above is easy... it'll hurt like hell... since you are their family, despite them not being yours. The issue at hand is do you really want these people in your life, and the life of YOUR family (sigoth and sproglet) , when they'll not extend a courtesy to you that you have extended to them? It'll take strength of will on your part... make one last attempt making it clear that if they don't want to make nice then you have no parents....then if they want to get ugly about shit... drop em. They're not worth your time and you have your own family now... You don't need them, and it's all their loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithaB Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Congratulations on the baby! It's a shame your parents can't appreciate the miracle of life under these circumstances. I can't help wondering what they would say if you told them you were considering abortion. How is her family? Will she at least have some support through this exciting time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 Hi Cincy, I've also been shunned by my mother because of my apostasy (no father to be shunned by, at least none that I've ever met). I was also an adult when I deconverted. It was a number of years before my mother found out, but during that time we had still grown apart, since every other word out of her mouth was about god, and she expected me to reciprocate, which I couldn't do. Once I did come out of the closet, like in your case, the news was not well taken and we didn't have any sort of relationship. Things came to a head 4 1/2 years ago, and except for six boxes sent a couple of years ago containing my possessions and every picture she owned of me and my daughter, and an anonymous copy of "23 Minutes in Hell" through the mail sent within the last year (in her handwriting, from her zip code--no note included) I have not heard from her since. The last time I tried to contact her, 4 1/2 years ago, and left a message on her answering machine, she responded with perhaps the most scathing letter I have ever read. Oh, and another similarity: our wife was pregnant with our second child at the time. Things were going disastrously with the pregnancy. My mother, as far as I know, still doesn't know whether or not her grandson survived, nor has she ever made any attempt to find out, at least none that I am aware of. I feel for you, man, a heartfelt deconversion comes with enough angst of its own, at the time, but fallout like this is really tough stuff to deal with. The thing is, if you have parents that would discard you and trash their relationship with you this heinously, you never had parents who had done you any favors to begin with. What GH says, "'blood is thicker than water'... it's horse shit," it's true. Our spouse, or SOs, those we hold dear, we choose. Our parents are luck of the draw. The thing that usually gets missed is that it's not so easy to just flippantly say of your parents, "fuck 'em, they suck," even if you know you can say, "they suck." They had some 20 years or so to shape and indoctrinate you when you were young and tender. It made them central to us whether they were wonderful parents or horrible parents. This issue will remain gut wrenching for a long time. Maybe it will be useful to remember the following: It helps me to know that I turned out all right in spite of my mother's best efforts to screw me up (inadvertently, as a function of her own warped psyche, or both). It sounds like you turned out all right, too. It helps to know you're a "better" person than your parent(s) not from a fundy perspective, quite the opposite: you didn't need a made up god telling you what to do to turn out all right. You did not forsake your own child. It's constructive to focus on what you do from where you are now. In this case, it means your SO and the bun in the oven. That's what you really have, and it is good. You can't change other people, and that includes parents even more than others. They are what they are. It's part of the hand we're dealt. The best we can do is grieve and move on ("moving on" implies plenty of time to come to terms with thing, as well as adjusting to whatever form, if any, your relationship with your parents takes). It is they who have terrorized you with their conditional "love." The nature of your future relationship, or even whether there is one at all, depends on your own specifics. Best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 BTW... typical Y-chromosome response from me! Sorry! Congrats on the sproglet! (I should have mentioned it... but I was on full tilt rant! I was bloody lucky with my family... and it pisses me off when people don't live up to the standard my parents set...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 cincyunixguy, it's exactly a year ago that my family kicked me out. Not literally but in the same way your parents are doing. All this really tells you is that you're not the only person who goes through this. It's things like Gramps wrote that have encouraged me to take a stand. Otherwise I might still be allowing them to walk all over me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted September 8, 2007 Share Posted September 8, 2007 cincy, This isn't a 'sweet answer' to a prickly problem post. Simply? Fuck 'um. You and your lady are adults, on your own, making your life best you can. Unless there is a visibly high pile of coin you need to suck up for on or about the death of your parents you want, and need to kiss ass for, let the assholes go. Gramps pretty well penned what I think of the familial relationships, now time for the seastories... My Mom passed when I was a middlin' aged teen. Old Man and I never were good friends. I split his house when I was large enough to ride my motorcycle the fuck outa there. In the fifteen-odd years before he died ('91) we didn't speak more than a few dozen conversations, and those silted and very tiring to have to listen to. Those were even done in my most feverent xtian days, when *forgiveness* and shit was on my side... The Old Man just couldn't let it go that I walked away from his Brand Y, I chose Brand X, and then walked away from all of the Brands of Religious Braincancers. When he was on his final downward spin, dying from heart problems, he and I had one talk over landline, and that was *it*. He passed with whatever bullshit that was in him, or was him intact. All those years he could never let go, and seemingly realize that I was an a-dolt, err, adult, and would go and do as i damn well pleased, despite the constraints of life and religious experiences. You, your lady and child to be? Strike out, live life, do as you damn well fucking please. Mom? She'll have to get over things and accept that LittleBoy has grown in to ManAllHisOwn and chose a life in which she does not control. She'll get the fuck over her *hurt* or die from it.... This is one of life's sour lemons you don't have to suck. kFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatepirate Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Just thought I'd throw this in here...you mentioned you had no plans of getting married? Did it ever occur to you that if something were to happen to your girlfriend after childbirth, it could cause a whole mess of legal complications? Like, if she died during childbirth, her parents would have automatic custody of this kid... Plus, if you're living together and stuff, are you going to help support her while she raises the kid. Are you all going to have separate insurance plans? I'm not trying to say it's evil to have children out of wedlock or anything like that. It's just that if you value the child as "yours", you not being married to the mom can cause a lot of legal and insurance issues in many places. It's pretty much the RL story of an acquaintance of mine: had a girl he loved; they decided to have a kid; she died during childbirth; because they weren't married, the girl's parents took his kid and he never got to see it. Would hate to see the same happen to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted September 11, 2007 Author Share Posted September 11, 2007 Just thought I'd throw this in here...you mentioned you had no plans of getting married? Did it ever occur to you that if something were to happen to your girlfriend after childbirth, it could cause a whole mess of legal complications? Like, if she died during childbirth, her parents would have automatic custody of this kid... Plus, if you're living together and stuff, are you going to help support her while she raises the kid. Are you all going to have separate insurance plans? I'm not trying to say it's evil to have children out of wedlock or anything like that. It's just that if you value the child as "yours", you not being married to the mom can cause a lot of legal and insurance issues in many places. It's pretty much the RL story of an acquaintance of mine: had a girl he loved; they decided to have a kid; she died during childbirth; because they weren't married, the girl's parents took his kid and he never got to see it. Would hate to see the same happen to you. It doesn't work that way where I live. Marriage makes absolutely no difference regarding child custody, etc. Its what is in the best interest of the child. I have a solid career, and a loving "mortgage in law family." So I don't have any worries. It doesn't seem like most people realize this.. but not getting married offers greater tax advantages. We gain about a 5 grand difference by not getting married. A good chunk of that money goes for daycare! We do have separate insurance polices. But we both have one on each other as well. We also have separate bank accounts and try to split everything up. It seems to work great for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necrosmith Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Screw em. Birth doesn't make a family. It's how people treat you that makes a family. Your family are assholes and aren't worth your time. It hurts, but people suck. What can you do? Congrats on the baby. Hope everything goes well for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Cincyunixguy, Congrats on the forecoming parenthood. I love my little guy, made my failed first marriage worth the agony. As far as your parents go, Until your parents come around and realize what they are messing up, the best you can do is continue to hold out the offer to resume contact. Unless you decide it is better not to. Best interest of he child comes first, and deciding if hate-filled grandparents are in the best interest of the child is your call. HatePirate, I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I have never heard of such a thing, usually the father gets the child if the mother is not around. Never heard of a father getting no rights over grandparents. If that is the law there, glad I don't live there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Follier Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Your story and mine are carbon copies of each other down to the theistic ex-wife, new freethinking partner, etc. I don't know what can be said to right the wrong they've done to you by shunning you but just know that ultimately it isn't their approval you need. It is your own, your partner's and in later life your child's. There is nothing wrong with you; there is plenty wrong with parents who would allow the love and acceptance of their son, daughter-in-law and grandchild to hinge on differing beliefs. They are hurt because you reject their beliefs, not your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ephesos Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Family is where you feel at home. That is not neccessarily there where you incarnate corporeally this time... so, if your "folks" can't live with the fact that you started thinking, tell them to either learn to think themselves or to get out of your life for good. I know my dad learned to accept there are different beliefs out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 You've gotten some good advice here. GH hit the nail on the head. Even though my family division is not because of religion, I know exactly how you feel. I've been shunned to for pretty much the same reasons, and that is being myself when they want me to be something they approve of. So I don't have a family anymore and it really hurts like hell. People tell me "Fuck 'em, move on" and I have...but it doesn't stop the fact you feel like you're emotionally bleeding to death. Though I've been doing that for years and it really is survivable. I've learned that part of growing up is going out and creating our own family. You've got a signifigant other, her family, and a soon to be a son or daughter that is going to be there to support you and love you the way a family should. Family is bound by love, honor, and respect, not by blood. I know all that doesn't cure the hurt, but take it from me...admit to yourself you are hurt, sad, angry, whatever about this you are. Then start trying every now and again to catch yourself in the good moments with the people who really are your family. The holidays, the barbeques, the moments after a good joke, sharing a beer, kisses goodnight, and events you all go to, things like that. The more you acknowledge the bad feelings but focus on the good times with the people you love, the more you will heal. Best of luck, and congrats on the forthcoming new addition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 I'm more extreme than you in personality wise. My family was never family. My dad is one of the worst pricks I can think of. If not for mum, he is to me as good as dead. The fact he is excessively biased towards my younger brother, drives me towards insanity. I've went through depression where I needed a psychotherapist. True, I'm not independent now, but I'm not letting anyone stop my ambition to do what I really want, which is pharmacology. Like GH said 'blood is thicker than water' is at best a physical observation. When I went through a phase of confusion in Australia, my parents were the FIRST to talk me down. Many a time have I heard dad saying how his life would be easier without us. Then he is no longer a 'man,' except the fact he has a penis. Ok, he's supporting me now, but how do I know he would stick by me through thick and thin? When he loves taking my merits as his own, just because I'm his son? As a matter of fact, the first person who stuck by was a dear friend, when my name was as black as burnt toast. Even today, I still see her as my sister, someone who I want as a part of the family. This was 5 years ago, I was 18. Last summer I met one of my aunt's friend's husband. He is like the perfect type I want as a father. Sure, he had little to no formal education, but at least he has a strong character, at least he doesn't equate level of education to personal integrity. I suppose my definition of a 'real man' is very traditional, if not 'alpha'. A man can only be a man when his words and/or his actions speak for themselves. His beliefs in himself are strong and would strive to battle the odds. He will not sway to any opinion from friends or otherwise. He will give his unconditional support to his loved ones, and fight for them even if it costs him his freedom, reputation, and his life. His loyalty will be to his family and his family only. By family, the definition is of those bonded together by emotional ties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 cincyunixguy, I always try to look at things from different angles to see if there isn't something overlooked, so I'll do that here. Did you have a close relationship with your parents prior to this announcement? You mentioned you spoke to them bi-weekly prior to telling them, but that suddenly dropped in frequency afterwards. In long-term relationships people get used to a certain face of the relationship they get comfortable with. They develope a familiar way of communicating. When something unexpected comes along, it challenges that norm. Maybe they don't know how to talk of their disappointments, fears, concerns, and confusion with what you said. Is it that they don't love you, or don't know how to talk about it with you? Personally, I wouldn't be so quick to judge the level of their love based on their reaction. They may not know how to approach the subject comfortably. I sense it bothers you and you would prefer to have that relationship move ahead on new grounds, rather than "cutting them off". I would take the ownership of it, and not expect them to. This is for you. You act on what you want. If you want this, then you make the effort at opening the dialog with them. You may have to take various tact’s to get through the barriers, and you may end up never being able to breach it. Your heart will tell you when it's time to throw in the towel, but I'm doubtful you're at that point yet. You wouldn't care if that time came already. Don't confuse hurt and frustration with resignation. For what it's worth to you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted September 17, 2007 Author Share Posted September 17, 2007 I thought I would update you all on this. An interesting thing happened this weekend... We went out to dinner on Saturday night. Then we left and went home. About 1/2 after we are at home I get a call from my parents on our main house line. They have called to inform me that my cell phone is at the restaurant. They sounded just fine in their voices when I talked to them. They gave no indications that they were upset at me at all. My dad had indicated that he was planning on calling me anyway. But because its been more than a month, I question if he really meant that or not. Interesting... they never asked about the baby and how my significant other is doing. Wouldn't that be a standard question you ask someone? I didn't volunteer any news to them regarding that subject. If they don't have the common decency to ask, then why should I bother? Anyway... at this point forward I'm going to continue to stay on the down low for awhile. I called them on Sunday as well and we talked. But the only reason I did that is because I cut them short on Saturday because I wanted to go pick up my phone. So... I hope they decide to call me again within the next month or so. If not... I'll call them on Thanksgiving. Oh and one more thing.. I had sent my mom an email last week and Just got a reply today after our phone conversations this weekend.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Mom, Are guys ok? I haven't heard from you in awhile. I've been thinking about you allot and hope to hear from you soon. To be honest, I've been afraid to call because you and dad were so upset at me when I told you the news a month ago. Your lack of contact makes me feel like I've been shunned by you. Harrison ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Harrison, I didn't check this e-mail for awhile and yes, you have been in my thoughts and prayers so much. You know for whatever reason life brings your dad and I will always love you. Guess the cell phone incident was nice to keep in touch.... Talk later.. Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 hey congrats on the baby! in a way your update gave me a glimpse of hope that my parents will eventually come round the fact I'm defining myself, and my life and my goals. I know I'm no longer following their plans and their 'vision' of a future. It seems that it will take a bit more time for me, and I can do nothing but be paitient. I may have deliberately stayed low, but at least I can say that was the best course of action available, if I'm to keep rational. My dad is approaching the 60 mark... I can only hope there is still scope for 'evolution' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Hi Harrison, I didn't check this e-mail for awhile and yes, you have been in my thoughts and prayers so much. You know for whatever reason life brings your dad and I will always love you. Guess the cell phone incident was nice to keep in touch....Talk later.. Mom Your relationship with them is hardly dead. Don't be afraid of their ability to adjust with time to how you choose to define yourself. I really sense their love for you is bigger than the things they're having to process in this change. Good luck to you and yours. Big changes. All good in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted November 19, 2007 Author Share Posted November 19, 2007 I thought I'd offer you all an update on this.... This past Friday I called to talk to my parents because it had been about a month and a half since our last talk. I wanted to see IF they'd ask about my significant other. Everyone else in my life asks "how is she doing" type of questions. We're not getting any of that from my folks. So anyway... we have a normal conversation about various things. Towards the end when its about time to say goodbye I confronted my mom about why she hasn't asked about our pregnancy. So she immediately asked after I said that. I gave her a very brief update and then explained to her how their lack of caring makes me feel like crap. She continues to judge me because of the way we are living and she doesn't approve. I gave her my two cents and told her she's being manipulative and very judgmental. She basically hung up on me in the end by saying... "well I don't want to talk about this anymore... have a nice day... bye" followed by click! No chance for me to say goodbye. This has left me feeling like total crap. Its like... I'm being punished for being honest about my deconversion. If I was living the christian life everything would be fine. So its pretty crappy if you ask me. Makes me not want to call them at all now. But then I do this for like a month and then I miss them. It really sucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 That really sucks. I know how it feels. My family has had to learn how to do without me in their lives. My guess is your family has the same kind of thing coming if they don't smarten up. But right now you don't want to go through that. You are proud of your little one and you want them to be proud, too. Burnedout has an excellent idea. Of course, threatening that they might not have a part in their grandchild's life if they don't treat you and you s.o. right would mean carrying through on it. Otherwise you loose any power you have. It sucks. That's the long and short of it. It sucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 cincy, it's too long and involved a story to post here in its entirety, though I've given dribs and drabs of it throughout the over four years I've been a member of Ex-C. It's a story which, in fact, brought me, in desperation, to Ex-C. Most family fissures over religion feature the younger generation's breaking away from xian principles held by the older ones. My situation is the opposite -- my (roughly) humanistically-raised daughter married a man who later decided to go to seminary and become an Episcopal priest. During the first phases of this, I kept quiet and was marginally okay with it, because I knew Episcopalians to be very liberal. I romped with and changed the diapers of and gave loving attention to my grandchildren. We adults even joked about the disparities in our views. When, however, my s-i-l discovered none of the diocese to which he applied wanted him, he commented to me that if he were a lesbian he'd have no such problem. From that point on, he sought out and adapted his views to the charismatic hate-filled Episcopal branch and got a position. Rabid exclusionism began creeping into discussions and, ultimately, he abandoned his earlier view that, even though my husband and I were a Jew and an atheist, he wanted us to be guardians in the event of parents' death, because no people could love his children as much as we did. But he "forgot" to tell us he'd changed his mind. When we once pressed the point of guardianship, we were informed by him and my daughter that any as-yet-unidentified strong evangelical family would be preferred over us. From that, there was an horrendous, rancorous split that lasted more than two years. My daughter and I now have civil, superficial, infrequent communication; I send carefully-chosen gifts and words to the grandchildren; I have nothing whatsoever to do with The Priest. If the precious child soon to be born to you were to grow up to follow a similar path as described above, how would you perceive that, and what would you hope to do about it? I'm telling/asking you all this because I hope it may give you some perspective you wouldn't otherwise have, and help you in some way -- though I would never presume to say in what way -- to see the kaleidoscope shards falling into a different pattern. All best to you with this heartbreaking situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 Its been awhile since I've been on this forum. Hello everyone! I need some encouragement and advice. In a nutshell: I have been an ex-christian for about 7 years or so. I almost immediately told my ex-wife in 2001. This was a huge cause for our divorce. We separated in 2002, officially divorced in 2003. Soon after this I met the woman that should have been my first wife. In 2004 we moved in together. In 2005 we bought a house together. This same year I came out of the closet to my parents about being an ex-christian. I must also mention my parents live in the west, and we live in the east so there are 1100 miles between us. I don't see them that often. Anyway.... They didn't take the news so well. Ever since that talk our relationship has not been the same. What used to be bi-weekly calls or more, turned into weeks in between. I could really feel the cold shoulders and that hurt. They seemed to get a little bit better as time passed. I stress a little bit. Now in 2006 we are expecting a child in March of next year. We are not married and have no plans to get married. This has caused my parents allot of shame. And now the baby, its like throwing gasoline into the fire. Its been about a month now that we told them about the pregnancy. They were speechless on the phone and then it turned into an ugly fight over the phone. We haven't spoken since. I am not sure what to do. I feel like its their problem, not mine. Its not my fault they are not happy with the decisions that I have made in my life. Its so ironic, my significant others family lives in our town and they are so happy for us. Everyone here is happy for us. Its just my parents that seem like they've shunned me. I don't want to pick up the phone and call them because I feel like its on them to make the first call back. I feel like I cant share details about the pregnancy with them because of the last call. I'm not sure what to do. I woke up with insomnia and am typing this. My heart hurts thinking about the whole thing. I don't want it to be this way. Anyone else out there get shunned by their loved ones?? I hate an aching heart. Please respond. My life in on the same track as yours...I am facing shunning soon. My advice to you is, the only thing you really can do. Disown them. Your woman's family is now your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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