Guest Toby Beau Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 How do you respond to claim after claim that since you lost your faith, you were never a true Christian. Are you insulted? Do you laugh? What could you possibly say to refute them? ME: "I used to be a Christian, and I think...." FUNDY: "No, you never were a true Christian." ME: "... well, I... yes I was, I'm saying that..." FUNDY: "No, if you ever really had the spirit of Christ in you, you would never deny it. You were just a cultural Christian, you have to know Jesus as your PERSONAL savior." ME:"... fuck you." I mean, what the hell else do you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 These people barely know what they believe themselves. There is no way under the sun that they can legitimately pass judgment on what your inner state has been in the past or is now. That doesn't keep them from passing judgment but you are not obligated to accept it or respond to it. You have every right to ignore conversation of that type and stripe. Nothing your can say will change their minds. Even if you can get them to seem to agree with you today, by tomorrow you will find they haven't budged an inch. That has been my experience. I'd like to wish you luck but I can't honestly do so with good conscience. Some people have good luck but too many don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
מה טבו Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Heh. If it's any consolation, you're likely to find that the people who knew you when you were a Christian don't believe you're an Atheist either - they think that since you were once a Christian, you must still believe in the Christian deity. You're just saying you don't for (insert lame fundy reason here). I was an Atheist for 10 years - I'm practicing Judaism now. The one thing that both of those periods have in common is that the same people told me I was either secretly still a Christian, or never a Christian in the first place. It never changes, and it's done to Ex-Christians of all stripes, not just Atheists. Some people just believe that their belief system is so perfect that no one could possibly simultaneously understand it and disagree with it. I think that in time you learn to laugh it off - you come to see the absurdity - the sheer madness in all of it. I wish I could say I was there myself. (Read "you don't know what you're talking about" in this forum to see a recent experience of my own that made my blood boil.) At this point, however, it's only a select few fundies I know who can still piss me off like that. RubySera is right. You're not going to reason with these guys. You're never going to convince them that it's possible to really leave Christianity. In a thread in the Lions Den here, Trancelation quotes this passage from the Christian Bible: Hebrews: 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. to indicate that even the Christian Bible says that it's possible to leave Christianity. Here, the writer of Hebrews seems to say that Ex-Christians can never become Christians again. Honestly though, I don't think it would persuade them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Wolf Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 I tell them they don't know me, I know me, I know what I was going through, not them. If they go on, I also tell them they can ask God when they see him, and he can verify that yes, I use to love him, but now I have the utmost hatred for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 I usually try to argue they're not True Christians either, but it's rather futile. They think they got it, and got it right. Even when they have been in and out of their belief several times, but this time, oh yes, now they for sure know they're right.. not last time, but this time they know. I went through those rollercoasters too, and I thought I knew, that I knew, that I knew, that I knew that I believed. So I have no answer how to approach that argument, but just do what you did. When they say OSAS, tell them: FOAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Me: "I used to be a Xian, and..." Fundy: "There's no such thing as a former Xian. You're either a lapsed Xian, or you were never Xian to begin with." Me: "Nobody could know that for sure except me and God. You're not me. Are you God?" Fundy: <insert spluttering here> Me: "I didn't think so. As I was saying..." Sometimes, though, this works even better: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Me: "I used to be a Xian, and..."Fundy: "There's no such thing as a former Xian. You're either a lapsed Xian, or you were never Xian to begin with." Me: "Nobody could know that for sure except me and God. You're not me. Are you God?" Fundy: <insert spluttering here> Me: "I didn't think so. As I was saying..." Please tell me that this conversation actually took place. If so, that is priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 I'd go with the 'fuck you' response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Please tell me that this conversation actually took place. If so, that is priceless. I wish I could tell you that it had indeed taken place. Alas, it hasn't yet. I have no qualms about responding as indicated, however. So I'm sure it'll happen one of these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 X - You were never a True Christian! Me - So true, because True Christians don't exist, so you're not one either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 X - You were never a True Christian! Me - So true, because True Christians don't exist, so you're not one either... Hey, did that ever happen? If so, what was the response? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Fundy: "Jesus is AWSOME! Three cheers for Jesus!!" Me: "You're an idiot. I used to be a Christian but not anymore." Fundy: "Stop being mean to me! Anyway you were never a true Christian!!" Me: "Obviously. I eventually used my brain." Fundy: "I said stop being mean to me!" Me: <sigh> Fundy: "Jesus Rulez!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 X - You were never a True Christian! Me - So true, because True Christians don't exist, so you're not one either... Hey, did that ever happen? If so, what was the response? I think I used it once or twice in this forum, but I don't remember the response. Probably I didn't get an answer at all, because I've seen that's about 99% of the cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 you could also fell them with a straight left from the shoulder and then point out their God isn't much use in protecting them from evil... but if they offer the other cheek, you'll try it again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 How do you respond to claim after claim that since you lost your faith, you were never a true Christian. Are you insulted? Do you laugh? What could you possibly say to refute them? ME: "I used to be a Christian, and I think...." FUNDY: "No, you never were a true Christian." ME: "... well, I... yes I was, I'm saying that..." FUNDY: "No, if you ever really had the spirit of Christ in you, you would never deny it. You were just a cultural Christian, you have to know Jesus as your PERSONAL savior." ME:"... fuck you." I mean, what the hell else do you say? Toby Beau, The gist of this conversation (minus the final quip, LOL) sounds similar to the core of typical theological arguments that take place between Baptists and Pentecostals. In fact, I bet the person who would say these things to an atheist would be a Baptist. A Pentecostal would never say such things but rather would simply call you an apostate, say you had denied the faith, say that in "the Last Days many will depart from the faith", and probably even say that you have committed the unpardonable sin, which are all biblical arguments. The Baptist arguments expressed in the Me vs. Fundy dialog are based on their idea of "Eternal Salvation" and can't be adequately defended scripturally. For what it's worth, at least Pentecostals (Charismatics, Evangelicals, etc.) know the Bible they believe in better than Baptists, not that Christians of any denomination are qualified to analyse and determine what atheists, agnostics, ex-christians, et. al. previously believed or currently believe! LOL. I don't know which would be "better", having the "conversation" with a Baptist or a Pentecostal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 I mean, what the hell else do you say? "The feeling is mutual." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islington Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Past never matters. Now I decide what I am by my own free will. (May be he would say that I dont have one, vor Satan made me decide that... I might answer then: If that is the case, than I am as god made me for god also created Satan. Then... no, I stop here, no fictiv discussion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insanity personified Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 simply say "I at one point considered myself a follower of the christian religion how does that make me any different from you now"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 When I first came here, I would get completely undone when a fundy came in telling us we never were TRUE christians. Then one day it hit me how utterly stupid the idea was. Just how in the hell can you have a true christian when you don't even have a true god? Now I just find it humorous. As I do most things related to religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specs appeal Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 I saw that as a bumper sticker: "God doesn't believe in atheists." I thought that was one of the most inane things I'd seen. I mean, it's not like it's going to change anyone's mind, and I don't think it's even funny, clever, or witty in any way. "GOD DOESN'T BELEIVE IN U EITHER ROFLOL!!11" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 It is a strange dilemma though. If God doesn't believe something to exist, then can it exist or not, or does it just go poof up in smoke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 It is a strange dilemma though. If God doesn't believe something to exist, then can it exist or not, or does it just go poof up in smoke? So God believes/disbelieves things??? Must be he exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 If God needs to believe things, which God does he believe in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMathGuy Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Perhaps I can offer some insight here, since I used to believe the same thing myself. I think I would either give them the short argument: "Well, it cuts both ways! If you are right than I was never truly saved. But if I'm right and Christianity is false then neither you nor anyone else, including the sincerest Christian on this planet, has ever been truly saved. I was never truly 'born again', but then neither were you!" If I felt that perhaps they were a little more open to discussion I might give them the long argument: "You may believe that, but why are you saying that to me? Do you really expect me to be impressed with that, or are you talking more to yourself? To reassure yourself that you have nothing to fear? I can understand it must be very comforting to think that now that you're 'truly' saved God is not going to let you go. You believe you have some special experience that no non-believer understands, but you'd rather not consider the possibility that maybe a non-believer does understand it because that would mean that you too are not protected from losing the faith. Do you think a person can be a genuine Muslim or a genuine Hindu and then stop believing in it? Because if so, it's only fair that you should apply the same standards to yourself. What would you say to a Muslim who told a convert from Islam to Christianity 'You were never truly a Muslim or you would not have converted away'?" And indeed, when I was a Christian this way of thinking was very comforting. It also provided protection from rational argument. I could claim knowledge through direct experience, no logic needed! Unfortunately for my faith, too many years of life experiences and studying the formal academic disciplines taught me to doubt the reliability of personal experience. I'm not sure how you convey this to others though. I don't think a rational argument would have gotten through my thick skull at that point in my life. Back then I was too infatuated with Jesus to be thinking clear-headedly. So what would I say to a born-again Christian who is the mirror image of my former self? Well, I'd try to avoid too much arguing since I don't think it would do any good. The moment he says "I'll pray for you." is usually the moment I decide the argument is not worth continuing, unless I'm feeling in a particularly sour mood at the time. Then I give him a piece of my mind! -- Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 We Don't Exist., God "doesn't believe" in atheists. Since God can't believe there are no gods, I can do one more thing then He can't. Therefore God can not exist. That's usually my reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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