I Just Don't Get It...they Think They're So Good

[R. S. Martin]

In another thread there is a discussion about multilevel marketing, evangelicals, and gullibility. I did a bit of research. I conclude that my siblings are involved in pyramid schemes. They're illegal. I can't quite believe it. These sibs are the people who so strongly opposed my own life decisions--they think they are too good to eat at the same table with me because I don't believe what they do about some ancient book--and who think they are so smart and know so much better than me how to live life. How could they possibly get tangled in something as devious as an illegal business scheme? I just don't get it.

 

I hadn't known that this stuff is illegal until just now. XCCC wanted to know if there is a link between evangelical religion and people being gullible enough to be drawn into multilevel marketing. That reminded me of what some of my siblings are doing. I'm not sure what it's called but it's definitely multi-level something and there's money involved and they're selling something. But the thing that really makes me uneasy is that there seems to be money involved just for getting salespeople set up in a level under yourself. I have not been in contact with my family but a year ago my brother was convincing some other family members to set up under him. Anyway, in response to XCCC's thread I read up a bit in wikipedia and they describe exactly what my siblings are doing.

 

Dad was always into "get rich quick" schemes. Now some of his kids are defying the law, it seems, and my guess is no one considers it wrong so long as they don't get caught. I don't really care either way about this. What I do care about is the self-righteousness. They can openly break the law and be considered full members in good standing with the church. I lose my membership because I seek to solve my own problems and go back to school to learn how to use my talents. I live in compliance with the law of the land, seek to be true to myself, and stand up for my beliefs. I am considered not good enough to eat a formal meal with them because I don't share their fantasies about a god leading the ancient Israelites out of slavery in the middle of the night, or that this god exists.

 

It seems so....EVIL...that they can break the laws of the land and remain full members of the church while I can't even eat with them at the same table. Their sacred text has words for them: Pharisees. Vipers. Whited sepulcres. Den of thieves.

 

That's strong language but it's biblical.

[The-Captain]

They're only human, but I guess they don't know that.

 

I think becoming Pharisee like is inevitable in religion. Even those who are aware of what the Bible says concerning their ilk seem to try and act like anti-Pharisees while pointing out how far astray their peers are. I guess thinking you have absolute truth does that to people.

 

Pyramid schemes though? Those are a joke, I didn't think people fell for those still. Sounds awfully "carnal" and like "storing up treasures" to be chasing after those things, not exactly a Christian calling.

[Knitterman]

Actually only certain types of programs are illegal. By selling a tangible product that a customer receives in exchange for money, it's mostly legitimate.

 

Now, many of those groups DO offer the "advantage" that being a dstributor (to "customers") you are entitled to get your own products for the distributor price, instead of full retail that your customers pay. But your "customers" are more often also your own friends and family, so you'd want to sign them up so they also get the lower price ... and then their friends and family ... and so on and so on. But as long as all these friends-customers are in your downline (i.e., the distributors who signed up under you, and then their downline distributors, etc.), you will get some monetary benefit from their sales as well. The more people in your downline, the better your group and personal volume will be.

 

The key is having a product people want, AND making sure the product is consumable so that people will likely come buy some more.

 

I've been involved in Amway (twice), Tupperware, NuSkin, MiracleMaid cookware. And the distributor meetings are virtually identical to evangelistic revival meetings -- getting everyone emotionally stirred up and "excited" and pumped and ready to go out and tell EVERYbody about the latest-greatest whatever.

 

Many such programs grow because they are started with church-going folks. Early on in program development they tap into charismatic-type attractive people who can talk a good talk, wear the nice clothes, and look like the image of success. And, a lot of these people are in fact ministers of one sort or another, preaching the gospel on Sunday, and talking to their flock about their latest money-making program during the week. And, of course, preachers automatically know who is rich and who is poor in their churches, so they know in advance who needs to make some extra money (i.e., by selling Amway, Tupperware, or whatever) -- which I think is a nasty way to prey upon the flock. And, since they already trust their own pastor (who wouldn't think of leading them astray) it is easy to get them sucked into the deal.

 

And on and on it goes. The similarities between multi-level marketing programs and Christianity, is striking. In fact, when I first got into NuSkin, one of their top distributors was in fact a Church of Christ minister, who was already involved in several other multi-level programs, and so NuSkin was just another way to add another stream of income (since he had his religious people, PLUS all his distributors in all his other programs) to recruit for this new program. On one of his training tapes he actually said that the Early Christian Church was the perfect example of multi-level marketing -- you tell your friends, they tell their friends, and pretty soon everybody wants in on it.

 

The attrition rate, however, is quite high. After a certain point, EVERYone is into Amway or Avon or whatever, so no individual at the bottom is actually making money, so they quit. Which means people upline need to continue recruiting. Vicious cycle, in my opinion.

 

That's probably more than you wanted to know, huh? heheheheheeh

 

But, no, it's not technically "illegal" as long as they are selling products and customers are happy.

[R. S. Martin]

Actually only certain types of programs are illegal. By selling a tangible product that a customer receives in exchange for money, it's mostly legitimate.

 

<snip>

 

That's probably more than you wanted to know, huh? heheheheheeh

 

But, no, it's not technically "illegal" as long as they are selling products and customers are happy.

 

Actually, this explanation makes me feel a lot better. Thanks. I did not understand why it would be illegal. You probably read my other post where I mention that they are selling products. So they are selling something and it's something a lot of my family believes in very strongly.

Burny, it did occur to me to use it against them next time they want to discipline or admonish me in some way. But in light of what knitterman says it probably is legal what they are doing.

 

The-Doctor said:

Sounds awfully "carnal" and like "storing up treasures" to be chasing after those things, not exactly a Christian calling.

 

Oh, but you should hear them talk about being good stewards. In the summer of 2000 I did some volunteer work through Mennonite Central Committee. I was attending a modern Mennonite church at the time. I had been urged by a modern Mennonite to do it and I went with the blessings of my church. It was a new experience for me because the horse and buggy people I had come from did not do that kind of thing.

 

One of my little sisters, who is involved in this pyramid thing, chided me for working for no pay because we need to be good stewards. I guess that "good steward" thing is built on some biblical passage or other.

 

I was dumb-struck. It seems you can't win. I told her that I had gone with the church's blessing so I didn't know it was wrong. She did not respond to that. But that is the kind of person we're talking about--a person who apparently has a problem with someone doing volunteer work among Natives in Northern Ontario. All I did was help them make gardens and preserve food. That's what she was doing, too, in her own home. However, she was also working for PAY. And she was SELLING garden produce. She was MAKING MONEY.

 

According to how we were raised in our family, I can see how someone might grow up thinking money was THE important thing in life. Dad's parents were on his back so long as they were alive. And that was until all of us were grown and flown the nest. His parents set up farming in the Depression and did well. Dad started farming in the mid-fifties and by all accounts should have made a go of it but failed. If you hear every day of your life that you can't have this and you can't have that because there's no money for it, you absord some message or other. When you see your dad reading the newspaper while the farm loses income due to negligence, and you connect the fact that you can't have this and that because dad prefers reading to working, I suppose you develop some kind of ideas around work and money and stewardship. When you then see your older sister spending the best part of the year reading and writing at school, and doing volunteer work during the summer, perhaps that is just taking things too far. I dunno.

 

I'm thinking the fact that she needs to be involved in this kind of thing now in her forties proves that her method isn't working all that great, either, no matter how hard and faithfully she worked all her life. My guess is that these sibs are in desperate need of extra cash to make payments on their homes. People in the church loaned them tens of thousands of dollars to buy homes ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five years ago. I'm guessing things aren't going as well financially as they had anticipated and that people are breathing down their necks to get their money back before they die. So my sibs find out about this kind of thing. It looks good so they do it.

 

But still, aren't homes "laying up treasure on earth"? Aren't they carnal-minded? They love to sing "I'm but a stranger here, heaven is my home," and "This world is not my home; I'm just a-passing though--my treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue." I have never been able to feel comfortable going into major debt for a home because I've never had a good enough job to see my way through paying it off. My maiden aunts never owned a home. I did go into major debt for education--it was a last-ditch desperate attempt at making life worth living. It was my ticket out of hell and hopefully to financial independence. I guess it depends what a person values.

 

I don't really understand it but this community values homes very highly. I don't understand this value because they also see it as a virtue that Jesus was so poor as not to have a place to call his own even to lay his head at night. They say it's okay having earthly possessions if we have them as though we had them not. I guess that means if we don't put too much stock into them. But when people criticize others with poor stewardship for doing volunteer work, and then jump for shady business deals themselves in order to maintain expensive homes, exactly how are they "having their possessions as though they did not have them"???

 

Doc, I think you're onto something. I just needed to work it all through in my head. This is helping me feel that I am at least equal to my sibs and that is a huge one for me. Thanks.

[R. S. Martin]

Multi-level marketing is not illegal, though I can not remember how they really differ from pyramid schemes. I think there has to be a real product involved or something, but the set up is pretty much the same.

 

That's probably the difference and I just didn't read carefully enough. I know there is a real product involved, and also money. I also know the general meaning of pyramid when applied to social set-ups. When you get money and pyramid relationships inside a family or church fellowship, the potential for conflict is intensified instantly and astronomically. It seems totally insane to even go there. Why don't they just set up a commune and keep it simple if they want to help each other?

 

In fact, the reason I heard about what my sibs were doing was because there was conflict due to it. It seems they just close ranks when it concerns items of religion and me. I guess conflict over money and relationships with each other is not as bad as eating with an unrepentant sinner and violating 1 Cor. 5. Never mind that the Bible speaks plainly on many occasions about filthy lucre and love of money and promotes poverty in general. Never mind that it especially stresses love among humanity and especially among family members and those of "the household of God." Just be sure not to be contaminated by sharing table fellowship with a person who doesn't have the same ideas in her head as you do regarding the present abode of the dearly departed.

 

Some thoughts that I imagine they might be thinking:

 

Not that she would talk about it or try to convert anybody--unless asked, of course, but it might give her a wrong impression. If we allowed her to eat with us at a funeral or wedding she might get the idea that we approve of her evil escapades and dilly-dallying in worldly wisdom and heresies. Romans 1 says she's an evil atheist who doesn't want to retain knowledge of God in her mind so God has given her over to a reprobate mind. We know that because the Bible itself says so. We thought maybe she hadn't because she seemed to be tender-hearted at our Mother's funeral but when we tried talking to her about the faith afterwards she proved to be hard-hearted as anyone. The Bible is absolutely correct. She wouldn't listen to love or reason. She just stuck to her own ideas. In fact, she went so far as to offer US books of evolution when we asked how she thinks the world came into being. How evil and disrespectful can that be?!?!!?

 

[Amethyst]

I personally don't like either MLM or Pyramid schemes. Pyramid schemes are illegal because they don't have an actual product -- they just take money and never produce anything. MLM's that have an actual product are not illegal.

 

Most churches, at least the ones that ask for tithes, I definitely would agree are like pyramid schemes. They take their parishoners' money and never produce a thing. The only reason they're not illegal yet is because they're churches and therefore untouchable.

[Skiergirl24]

I am amazed at how hypocritical Christians are. Look at the gang-nager rappers. Biggie Smalls and Tupac-killed each other. They were in gangs, killed people, and dedicated their albums to "My heavenly father Jesus." Uh...hellloooooo???? Look at the Irish and Italian Mafia...VERY religious Catholics but would not think twice about chopping you up and dumping you somewhere in the Meadowlands. The nicest people I have ever met have always been frethinkers.

[Knitterman]

Most churches, at least the ones that ask for tithes, I definitely would agree are like pyramid schemes. They take their parishoners' money and never produce a thing. The only reason they're not illegal yet is because they're churches and therefore untouchable.

 

The other reason is that many of their public solitications for money (like on TV and bake sales and other places beyond the offering plate) are in the form of "For your love gift of $25.00 we'll send you, FREE, a copy of our latest book,", or some plastic glow-in-the-dark cross, or some other insignificant trinket, CD, or whatever. Such things cost pennies to produce, and are given "free" when someone sends in their "love gift". With a gazillion lawyers carefully constructing their language and advertising, they can get away with "not cheating the public", since they give away some tangible silly little thing. Similar for bake sales, rummage sales, etc. They aren't "really" selling merchandise, but giving things away to people who give a "love gift".

 

Very slippery-slimy way of raising funds just a hair's-breadth away from questionable/borderline/illegal.

[XCCC]

Actually only certain types of programs are illegal. By selling a tangible product that a customer receives in exchange for money, it's mostly legitimate.

 

Yes, I have a really good friend whose mom is way up there on the Juice Plus MLM chain. I can't argue that Juice Plus has no value at all but I do question that if it really has a lot of value, why isn't it flying off store shelves? You have this supposedly life-changing product that can revolutionize the health industry and you're going to limit it's marketing by distributing solely by MLM? I don't think so. Not unless you stand to make more money that way and you aren't sure your product could stand up to conventional market forces.

 

I was really irked one time when I went to a dermatologist. I had just had my second child and was having some dermatitis problems. The dermatologist prescribed one kind of medicine and then handed me a "prescription" for a kind of shampoo from NuSkin. I went online and ordered the shampoo but only then realized that the dermatologist was the distributor for that shampoo. So, basically, he was making money off prescribing me that shampoo. Talk about unethical. Never went to him again. The shampoo worked fine. But I'm guessing that there are others (on regular store shelves) that would have worked well too.

[Knitterman]

But I'm guessing that there are others (on regular store shelves) that would have worked well too.

 

Yup.... many products from MLMs are okay, I suppose, if they are on the market for a year or more. By that time any federal agency would have tried it out. Several companies are selling one or another version of "Noni Juice" for example. But you can get similar from Whole Foods or other health food store. Whoopie. And look at Tupperware vs. Rubbermaid. Both are very good products, but you can only get Tupperware from a distributor, versus popping down to your local Whatever*Mart for Rubbermaid. There's nothing in most of the NuSkin products that isn't also in stuff you find in the cosmetics aisle. One of the original NuSkin products was a version of minoxidil, the active ingredient in Rogaine (although the NuSkin version had twice the active ingredient). Minoxidil was originally some sort of heart medication (or blood pressure, or something like that), and they accidentally discovered men using the product were suddenly also growing hair. They tested minoxidil in a topical solution instead of ingested as a pill, and that's how the final product was developed.

 

The silly adult 'toys' at the popular "adult home party" can be found cheaper online or at the local adult shop down the street. BUT, they aren't selling you the product, they're selling you the marketing (personal delivery, home demo, blah blah blah). Same old story: don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks for all your responses, everyone, but I'm feeling just a tiny bit guilty for stealing XCCC's show. Wasn't intentional. It's just the way this thread has developed. Maybe folks here don't know about this thread that XCCC started on Gullibility And The Evangelical. Knitterman, I'm thinking your insights would be especially relevant to that thread...

[Knitterman]

Thanks for all your responses, everyone, but I'm feeling just a tiny bit guilty for stealing XCCC's show. Wasn't intentional. It's just the way this thread has developed. Maybe folks here don't know about this thread that XCCC started on Gullibility And The Evangelical. Knitterman, I'm thinking your insights would be especially relevant to that thread...

cool, I'll go check it out (as if I needed another distraction from work! I've been agonizing in an online forum discussing "White Privilege" and I'm SOOOOOO Sick of it)