Figuring Out Why Christians Are Deaf To Evidence

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I've been trying to figure out why it is so difficult to get believers to even listen to why we left Christianity. There always seems to be an invisible wall of condescending resistance to any criticism or evidence against Christianity. Even though some of us experienced decades of solid Christian belief, we are dismissed as having never believed, or never "truly" believed.

 

This may not be a new concept to some of you, but it all fell together for me today.

 

Christianity is a form of codependency. Codependency is the perpetuation of an abusive relationship by two or more people, each of whom derives enough emotional support from the relationship that it outweighs the strife. In fact the strife itself fuels the emotional intensity of the relationship.

 

Once a believer has invested trust, time, money, and emotion into a religion, the religion becomes reality and that person becomes quite unwilling to believe anything negative about the religion. This is true even when the believer is abused by fellow believers or authorities in the religion, as well as self-abuse that comes through the guilt imposed by the religion. The believer thinks that the abuse is deserved due to his or her inherent sinfulness. The circle of codependency is sealed by the fear of what will happen if the believer leaves the "relationship" (damnation).

 

This follows the pattern of codependency in abusive relationships. The church or God would take the role of the abuser, and the believers fill the role of perpetuating the relationship through submissive dependence on the abuser. The submissive one minimizes her sense of self-worth, while actually defending the perceived good qualities of the abuser.

 

Compare what you typically hear in an abusive relationship to what you hear in the Judeo/Christian faith:

*If you leave me, I'll kill you (Exodus 20:3; 22:20)

*If you ever look at another man, I'll beat you black and blue you fucking whore! (Jeremiah 13:25-27, Nahum 3:1-7)

*I love you so much honey. I'm the best thing that ever happened to you. Look at all I do for you. (Exodus 20:4; Ezekiel 16)

*I don't think you love me enough. You better show some appreciation. (Psalm 2:11-12)

*My dinner better be ready when I get home. (Luke 17:7-10)

*I should've aborted you. You're stupid and useless! (Genesis 6:5-7; Deuteronomy 32:6l; Jeremiah 5:21)

 

The church is taught to take all this and more and to respond with agreement, worship, reverence, and most of all obedience. This allows the abusive "god" to continue his reign of terror, and his henchmen carry out his directives. The church is afraid to do anything but submit, because of the threat of torture in hell, or at the very least the withholding of blessings. The church will even justify this abuse because "God is holy, and if he hadn't gone to extremes to show us mercy we'd all be damned." So there is this sense that we owe God big time for making a way of salvation, and that we really are unworthy of his presence, and very worthy of torture in fire for all eternity.

 

As in regular human relationships, codependency in religion is a hard behavior pattern to break. I never even saw it when I was a believer. It is only now that I am on the outside looking in that I see the inherent abuse in these verses and thousands of sermons that echo the same attitude. To compound the strangeness, the abuser (God) never really does anything since he doesn't exist, and all the submission and often the fervor in preaching is based on fear of damnation or at least being judged harshly. I preached it myself because it was orthodox truth, and the most important thing to me was to be truthful in my beliefs. This is why when I learned that it wasn't real that the whole balloon deflated pppppppttttthhhh! This also explains some of the anger I have when I hear Christianity being called something good. It was and is an abusive relationship and I want it exposed as such, not held up like it is something wonderful. [i realize there are some teachings that are healthful to mankind in the Bible, and I'm not spitting on those. But the primary thrust of the scriptures is that man is separated from God and worthy of punishment. This is why verses like the ones above were written. This concept and the imaginary god that is the kingpin of the system are what I revile.]

 

Of course, many believers will scoff at this whole concept, proclaiming their joy and love for God, and their enjoyment of his love for them. "My God would never be an abuser. He is a gentleman." The problem with this "pop" faith is that it is made up on the fly, it is not based in scriptures and yet it is still labeled Christianity. The most common theme throughout scripture is the anger and judgement of God against wicked humans. To selectively only hear the love parts fits in quite well with my diagnosis of codependency, since the abused one doesn't recognize abuse as abuse. Instead she defends the abuser as "a good father" "a good husband" "I don't know what I'd do without him".

 

 

What do you think?

[Dagan]

What do you think?

 

I think you are right, and you've done an excellent analysis.

 

The holy marriage/bride of Christ view of the church/Christians is pretty awful when you start looking at the bible as a whole, not just the "love" verses.

 

When the "church" of Israel strays in Judges, God sends thugs to beat and rape her. Only when she repents does he swoop in like a hero and save her, defeating the thugs he hired!

 

And the early Christian church isn't much better. God hates his bride so much because she's sinful that he can't stand to look at her, unless she looks like his son/himself.

 

It's abusive, and codependent, like you so eloquently explained.

[florduh]

You have summed it up perfectly.

 

I stopped explaining myself long ago. Initially, one hopes for understanding and acceptance of his non-belief, but it will never happen. If pressed, I might just say I've come to different conclusions and understandings and I simply don't share their belief.

[Arctic]

Because there not looking for the truth,

 

they know the truth and anything against it, no matter how logical and sound is wrong because they know the truth,

alot of the time when you debate a xian there not looking to find flaws in there own beliefs, just defend and counter attack your's ,

 

remember to the xian your blind, mislead and they see themselves as rescuers of souls and spiritual warriors of god, because the xians mission is to become stronger in there beliefs not doubt or subvert them as this would lead to damage to ones beliefs and religion.

[oddbird1963]

Christianity is a form of codependency. Codependency is the perpetuation of an abusive relationship by two or more people, each of whom derives enough emotional support from the relationship that it outweighs the strife

 

You are so right there! I think that the pressures exerted on people sociologically, psychologically and economically make them twist and bend reality to make christianity seem reasonable. We all do it to some extent or another. We want to see ourselves in the best possible light and we want our beliefs to be reasonable, so we twist here, fudge there and gloss over some evidence there.

 

It's just that religion deals with "ultimate" issues and has had thousands of years to infect the culture so that reinforcing stimuli are everywhere in our culture.

[BeckyJ]

The way you translate the passages into quotes you'd hear from messed up people in a messed up relationship are genius! This is another one I have to cut and paste into my collection.

 

The fear tactics are so easy to see when you cut through all the cr@p.

 

Becky

[Loren]

Excellent work, Fuego. Yes, this concept has been discussed on this site a number of times, but it's so deeply true, and there are enough folks who haven't yet put that particular 2 together with that other 2. This also relates to so many social, psychological and sociological problems that are raised here that it's very useful for readers to see it brought up periodically. For instance, lately, we've had a several threads about deep anger at Christianity coming up years after deconversion. I suggest that you come back to this thread in about three weeks or so and compare the number in the "replies" column to the number in the "views" column. I know that there have been a good percentage of anonymous readers of threads here who were still Christian, but having deep problems with it which they had to keep private to themselves, not even daring to talk about it with a spouse for the very reasons you delineated so well in your post. I've come to understand that there has been a great deal of good done on this site which we never even become aware of because some struggling and alone Christian who was far too deeply mired in exactly what you've written about to even post here at all happened to read some post that was so true to their situation that it was a perfect bull's eye on a major nerve.

 

Very nice work, indeed!

[R. S. Martin]

When the "church" of Israel strays in Judges, God sends thugs to beat and rape her. Only when she repents does he swoop in like a hero and save her, defeating the thugs he hired!

 

From the context of "good guys to to heaven and bad guys go to hell," this has caused me major problems. So God "hires" the thugs to beat up his people, then sends them to hell for doing it. But Israel goes to heaven for repenting because God--in his mercy--hired the thugs to beat Israel up. The justice of this is so twisted I could never make sense of it.

 

And the early Christian church isn't much better. God hates his bride so much because she's sinful that he can't stand to look at her, unless she looks like his son/himself.

 

Narcissism. Homosexual. Dunno.

 

When I learned about the Gnostics and how they felt about the early Christian martyrs--they thought the gory and goring bloody amphitheatrics that these people (early xian martyrs) elevated as the ultimate prize for which Christians should strive were anything but decent, finally I was allowed a new look at the ancient stories. Maybe the martyr's death was not such a noble end. When I read the governor Tacitus's (or whatever his name was) letter to his emperor about what to do with the Christians, it seemed more like maybe these people were a pain in the ass with their stubborn nonconformity to the rule of law than noble folk laying down their lives for a Lord of Earth and Heaven.

 

It's abusive, and codependent, like you so eloquently explained.

 

Yes it is. Sorry for going off on a tangent.

[R. S. Martin]

I've been trying to figure out why it is so difficult to get believers to even listen to why we left Christianity. There always seems to be an invisible wall of condescending resistance to any criticism or evidence against Christianity. Even though some of us experienced decades of solid Christian belief, we are dismissed as having never believed, or never "truly" believed.

 

<snip>

 

What do you think?

 

Thank you for posting this. You make me aware of something. There's stuff happening in my family and I'm not sure exactly where things are going. It's about two and a half years since my deconversion--will be three years by September. In a month I plan to attend a family gathering (father, siblings, in-laws and their children) for the first time in about fifteen years. I've been in sporadic contact and attended occasional family events in the meantime.

 

Two years ago, Mom died. That was six months after my deconversion and it was like a lifetime of family conflict and hurt surfaced, with my deconversion being the focal point for it all. From Mom's funeral in March 2007 to Christmas 2008--nearly 2 years--there was no decent conversation with anyone in my family and they were as good as dead to me. Then around Christmas the silence was broken.

 

A few months later I got a letter from another sister informing me of significant changes in the family--one party is seeking other religious beliefs from what we were raised to believe in. I don't think that would have happened if Mom were alive; they are doing everything Mom opposed and these two people are Mom's pets. That aside, it rocks the family boat. It hauled me out of seclusion because I am no longer the only bad girl. I'm talking with two of my sisters--two that I've never had bad relationships with.

 

Now today...came the thunderbolt out of the blue. An apology from a bosom enemy.

 

We're talking about a family that has been very seriously co-dependently intermeshed on a multiple-generational level on our mother's side. Our dad's side isn't much better, though there may be a more appropriate label for the dysfunctions happening there.

 

Suddenly everyone's trying to make up to me. I have been informed that there is some rivalry or competition for my soul. I will be attending the family gathering. While "out here" I've learned a lot about being human with no strings attached. The apology I got today sounds like a cut-and-paste from a letter I wrote to another sister. Is that another bid for my soul?

 

I plan to accept that apology at face value. But this thread on co-dependency is a valuable discussion to remind me that far more may be happening at a deeper level than meets the eye. I'm trying to understand what Christianity really means to different people. I had a really deep conversation with my youngest sister a few days ago and I'm still trying to figure it out. She has no more than a Grade 8 education. She is about 36 years old and has been teaching Grades 1-3 for ten years or more at the same school.

 

In our conversation, she explained some basic psychology to me in such vivid and accurate terms that simply amazed me. I asked her where she learned these things. I was not surprised when she said it was from life experience and observation. She had even observed that two people can have the self-same outward experience but derive different inner experiences from it and come to different conclusions. Her vocabulary was barely large enough to describe all the concepts, and I think I am missing some of the nuances here. She took it as far as one can from observation and concluded that "beyond that, no human can take it." I told her, "I could tell you where to find psychology books that say exactly what you just described."

 

She asked, "Would they also say that no human can take it beyond that point?" I then described the scientific process for taking it farther, and for how one generation builds on the work of former generations, also about scholarly journals. This was on the telephone, so I could not see her response re whether she accepted or reject as legitimate what I was saying. She did not respond verbally but there were no negative vibes; the entire conversation was very friendly and open. We shared very deeply. It seems that she has made peace with the fact that I don't share her beliefs.

 

I told her about William Lane Craig who avowed that even if he saw that Jesus did not rise from the dead, he would still believe in the resurrection. I asked her what she would think in such a case. She said, "I suppose if he were still in there [tomb], I'd have to believe it [that he didn't rise]." I did not push it any further because:

1. her church does not analyze theology so deeply (preachers are not trained)
   
2. my goal was to find out how seriously she took facts.
   

I thought we had been taught to take facts very seriously but I decided to test her, since she seemed to have a lot of deep understanding. I tested her on another item, and it seems they draw the line between "what we believe" and "worldly teachings." Since evolution, although built on facts, falls in the "worldly teachings" category, it is outside their radar and cannot be accessed for consideration.

 

I suspect very many conservative Christians operate out of this mindset, though they draw the line at different places.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Thank you! It just felt right when I started writing this posting. The subject has puzzled me for months and as I was pondering it between calls at work, this concept dropped into my mind and seemed to give a lot of clarity. The resonance it seems to have with you folks is encouraging, and I'm glad to have posted something meaningful.

[Amethyst]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Is it any wonder that fundamentalist Christianity also represses the rights of women? I seriously think the two are intertwined.

[Pandora Moon]

I agree with what you are saying. maybe this was just the Jehovah's Witnesses but this may happen elsewhere too is that they encourge you to break away from your worldly friends and make new friends in the congration instead. I only bring this up because an abusive parnter will isolate you from family and friends so they can control you. I hope this makes sense

[chefranden]

I've been trying to figure out why it is so difficult to get believers to even listen to why we left Christianity.

 

The Belief Engine

Our brains and nervous systems constitute a belief-generating machine, a system that evolved to assure not truth, logic, and reason, but survival. The belief engine has seven major components.

 

Read the whole article here: http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Some Christian mystics describe the death of self and utter submission to God as a deep and wondrous thing, likening it to the passion of two lovers. They seem to wallow in their complete subjugation. But many of us who have come out now see the relationship as a betrayal of our love and expectations. We heard about God's love for us and were drawn in by the promises in scripture and the friendships we found in church. Then when we started hitting sour places in our "walk with God" and the promises fell flat time and again, we were told to have faith and continue pursuing God, or to act as if our prayers had been answered. This concept of not only validating the abusive attitude of God, but venerating it as well generates a lot of anger in we who have left the faith. It’s like telling a woman to trust her abusive husband and see his abuse as helping her to overcome her selfish nature.

 

In secular counseling, one of the most often referenced images of a codependent family is the elephant in the living room. Everyone bumps into it, and it really is inconvenient and difficult to live with, but nobody wants to talk about it. “Problem? There’s no problem. You’re the problem!” Rather than deal with the thing causing the problems, people invent solutions for living without having to correct the obvious issue. Similarly, questioning the faith openly or questioning God’s character isn’t tolerated for long in most churches. And rather than really answer questions, the responses range from instant rebukes to phrases like “Well, it’s not that you can’t believe, but that you don’t want to believe”, implying that the questioner only wants to enjoy sin rather than submit to God, and that any questions are mere impertinence rather than legitimate issues.

 

This issue of God as the abuser is one that needs to be brought to the front more often. The church uses this all-encompassing love to draw in the unwary. It is generally later that they are introduced to the bloodthirsty nature of this deity. Some preachers do start out with hellfire and then use love and mercy as a contrast to draw in those that were spooked by the stories of hell. But reduce it back down to the nature of this god, and you still find a being that is willing to set people on fire and not let them die because he sees that as right and just. He is an unapologetic abuser. We were right to dump him.

[Dagan]

Some Christian mystics describe the death of self and utter submission to God as a deep and wondrous thing, likening it to the passion of two lovers. They seem to wallow in their complete subjugation.

 

It's scary. I was looking through my History of Art book yesterday and came across this horrible thing. It's disgusting, this saint in spiritual ecstasy while an angel shoves an arrow in her boob. And there's lots more where that came from, the pages of my book were filled with examples.

 

I used to believe it too, mostly. I tried to believe that finding spiritual meaning and joy in misery was making me a better person. That every trial and painful experience in life was God refining me in the fire. But something always nagged at the back of my mind -- why does he do this to me? Why do I have to keep going through the same painful experiences again and again?

 

I now understand dimly what must be going through the mind of an abused wife.