Near Death Experiences

[Interested Atheist]

I'm in conversation with a Christian at the moment. It started well, b ut it may not go on much longer! We've been quite polite to each other so far, but when I asked her what kind of Bible-believeing Christian she was (literal or metaphorical) she answered "Does it matter what I think? You'll just disagree with me anyway."

 

True, in my time at bibleforums I have disagreed with alsmot everybody who spoke to me. I can't help it if they all seemed to be wrong.

 

She also says that whenever anybody offers me any arguments I just shrug them off and move on. There may be some truth to that (although I remember plenty of instances where people said to me "You'll never understand unless you have faith", or "can't you see it? It's so clear!" without further comment.

 

Anyway. She asked me about NDE's, and I responded with some articles from the Secular Web on this. She said these were biased sources, and suggested that we use neither Christian nor atheist sources to refer to. I asked her if she knew any neutral sources and she offered me these.

 

http://www.iands.org/

http://mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/h...tch_study.html

http://mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/html/u_k__study.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_studies

 

So can anyone please tell me what they think about Near-Death experiences? Thanks!

 

PS - we also said:

 

Me: In my other email, my main point was that when you say "I believe there is a reason for all of this...we all go through too much in this life for this to be all there is..." it just seems to me like wishful thinking - not really proof of anything. What do you think? Would you agree that wishing something were true doesn't mean it has to be?

 

Her: Of course wishful thinking doesn't make it so...I wasn't talking about wishing though...that is why I was trying to provide you with evidence of life after death. You wishing there was nothing after death, also doesn't make it so...you have more of the burden of proof there is nothing after death then I do, actually.

 

Any thoughts on this? Thanks, all.

[Ouroboros]

NDE's are most likely just the short burst of neuron firing off, either during the phase the person just dies, or during the phase the person wakes up again.

 

The problem I see with NDE is that our memory of events are stored in brain cells, in a very complex structure. How can a short moment of out body experience be transfered into the braincells and actually do physical alterations of charges and strengths in particular neurons, so the person can remember the episode afterwards? The only explanation is that the person experience the episode while alive[/b], either just before the moment of death, or just after being revived.

[Interested Atheist]

Could be...maybe the experience occurred just before "death" and when they woke up after the memory was there in the brain.

[Ouroboros]

Correct. That's what I believe.

 

I can't really grasp how something that is out-of-this-world can be anything comparable to what we have here. If other dimensions did exists, and other beings, why would they have two legs, two arms, walknig on ground etc. If it was true, it's more likely the experience would not be possible to explain or tell.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

NDE's are most likely just the short burst of neuron firing off, either during the phase the person just dies, or during the phase the person wakes up again.

 

The problem I see with NDE is that our memory of events are stored in brain cells, in a very complex structure. How can a short moment of out body experience be transfered into the braincells and actually do physical alterations of charges and strengths in particular neurons, so the person can remember the episode afterwards? The only explanation is that the person experience the episode while alive[/b], either just before the moment of death, or just after being revived.

 

 

Not only are neurons firing but the brain releases a sedative enducing a euphoric state, as the optic nerve begins to become oxygen starved tunnel vision sets in and any light source in the room would produce the "light at the end of the tunnel" effect.

[Fweethawt]

You wishing there was nothing after death, also doesn't make it so...you have more of the burden of proof there is nothing after death then I do, actually.

To this I would say, it is not that I wish there were nothing after death so to speak. But that I have no reason to believe that there is anything after death. Any information that I have to go by concerning the "afterlife", can easily be chalked up to wishful thinking.

 

 

Or something like that.

[pandora]

Ironic you would post that... I had an interesting experience last night... I was coming off pain medication for a migraine and trying to fall asleep. I suddendly started dreaming of past life events.... I heard the sounds of pots and pans clannging inside my head (that is the only way I can think of describing it) and then I "saw" a green glowing glob. I couldn't move. I often get sleep paralysis, but this was different, but it's probably related... maybe a mini-seizure due to coming off high doses of hydrocodone. It was really strange, and if I still believed in spiritual stuff, I would say it was a demon or something. I felt an incredible amount of fear. I can see how people would be convinced of an afterlife or spirit after that, because space and time disappeared, but it was just my sleepy brain not shutting off completely before I snap myself out of it. I finally was able to grab my husband and my heart was racing a mile a minute.

 

[Guest Mr. XC]

I find it strange that a Christian would use NDE's as a way to convert people. I do not remember any spot in the bible that mentions being greeted by loved ones, strangers, or *gasp* religious figures that include those of non-Christian faiths.

 

There are 2 broad views on this that I can think of. The biological view and the spiritual view.

 

HanSolo covered the biological view quite well, although I do have some questions. One question reminds me of the movie "Contact." Basically, a machine is built from plans that were received from signals from outer space. Being too expensive for the US to build, it is funded from many countries. It sends one person to remote place presumably connected by wormholes. She spends 18 hours on her journey. When she returns, she finds that the machine appeared to have not physically sent her anywhere. The time she spent in the machine from the onlookers on Earth appeared to only be a few seconds (not the 18 hours that she experienced). She was wearing a recorder which was supposed to record the entire journey. It showed only static. A Congressional inquiry hints that the entire project was very likely to be a hoax. But at the end of the movie, someone discovers that the recorder recorded 18 hours of static while in the machine. The point of bringing this move up in this discussion was time does not come from nowhere.

 

Being someone who knows a bit about computer processors, I know that when you shut them down, they loose their data. If you run them with too little or to much voltage, you get data corruption. Also, they suddenly do not speed up (or process more data) when you cut them on or off.

 

To support the biological view, you would also have to theorize how the brain had time to came up with all those reported experiences while the brain was dead. The time spent dieing and reviving does not seem to account for that. Even while we dream, the brain is still operating at real time to process the experience, so we observe no shortcuts to producing experiences of time while the brain is alive. Sure, it has some time while the brain is dieing, but creating productive experiences such as those found in the studies would seem to take up quite a bit of resources. Also, there was mention of an example where a person remembered a conversation while they were dead. If the brain is not operating, what did that recording? Were the sensors in the ears in conjunction with the brain's processing still operating somehow?

 

Also, you would guess that if someone died, they would suffer some kind of brain damage that would impair them in some way. But according to those studies, they came back with greater appreciation for life, higher self-esteem, greater compassion, etc. If there were damage, as one would expect in an NDE, you would expect something more along the lines of depression, fear, etc.

 

One thing that biology and science has taught me is that we are still just beginning to understand this world, and I would expect that there are still surprises to be found, especially in the field of neuroscience, which is still quite young. So, I would not rule out the biological explication just yet. Due to this, to accept the biological view, it does require a bit of "faith" until we get more answers.

 

According to Christianity, the road to Heaven is narrow, therefor, most people should be judged and sent to Hell, or somehow discarded. Considering that most NDE's included pleasant experiences and even included non-Christian figures, it would seem that NDE's are proof against Christianity.

 

The only spiritual/religious faiths that NDE's do support include ones that mention the a universal oneness or non-dualism, such as Buddhism, New Thought, Kabbalah (although Kabbalah teaches that dualistic components exist, I interpret that only the single God exists, but there are less "real" levels that exist which hold the dualistic components), and the like. The reason being is that most of these teachings include some form of universal knowledge, which is accessible, especially when we die. NDE's seem to access this knowledge. This not only confirms how a long experience can come out of a short time of a living brain activity, but also explains how it would have access to conversations that took place while the brain was dead.

[Guest Mr. XC]

I can't really grasp how something that is out-of-this-world can be anything comparable to what we have here. If other dimensions did exists, and other beings, why would they have two legs, two arms, walknig on ground etc. If it was true, it's more likely the experience would not be possible to explain or tell.

The explication that I have heard is that the dimension involved is translated into experiences that we understand. So non-physical (non-3D) beings are translated to human like figures. While this sounds a bit far fetched at first, we do have written language that can be recorded on a 2D surface (such as a stream of ons and offs, 0's and 1's) that expresses ideas that we translate to this 3D dimensional realm. Mathematics allows us to work in dimensions above 3D. The next question that I would have is where did we have time to learn this experiential language. Well, in a dimension without time, it is a non-issue.

 

Plus, non-dualistic spiritual beliefs that I mentioned in my other post say that this is closer to our true nature and that is where we existed prior to entering our physical body.

[Ouroboros]

The point of bringing this move up in this discussion was time does not come from nowhere.

Regarding the movie Contact, the time difference is a mystery. You would think that it could be explained with relativity, but in this case it is reversed. She experienced more time than the observerse, while relativity would rather state the opposite.

 

To support the biological view, you would also have to theorize how the brain had time to came up with all those reported experiences while the brain was dead. The time spent dieing and reviving does not seem to account for that. Even while we dream, the brain is still operating at real time to process the experience, so we observe no shortcuts to producing experiences of time while the brain is alive.

Our subconscious works much faster than our conscious part. IIRC, we actually think 160 words a second. Studies in sleep and dreaming have proven that during the short time of REM, you dream long sequences of stories. For instance, when you are half awake and dream, those are the dreams you remember, and you think you had a long dream, while in reality you only dreamt for a second or two.

 

I have an experience that kind of shows that. One time, I'm afraid to say it was long time ago, getting old and all, I woke up from my alarm clock, turned it off, took a shower, got dressed, ate breakfast etc, probably a 30-60 minutes experience. I reached for the handle to the door that led out of the house, and I heard the alarm clock again, next to me. So I woke up again! And discovered that I had dreamt the whole awake sequence. I went up from the bed and into the shower and already then ... the alarm clock was still on, so I woke up the third time. This time I made damn sure I was awake before going into the shower. And this time it actually was for real. But the funny part is how I dreamt that whole long sequence, while the alarm clock was still on. Probably I hit the snooze button, but it wasn't more than a couple of minutes before it would go off the second time.

 

According to Christianity, the road to Heaven is narrow, therefor, most people should be judged and sent to Hell, or somehow discarded. Considering that most NDE's included pleasant experiences and even included non-Christian figures, it would seem that NDE's are proof against Christianity.

Agree. If it can be used for one religion, then it can be used for the next (which it has for ages).

 

 

A side track to this, since you mentioned computers that loose memory when turned off. The new technology they're experimenting with, quantum computers, in one experiment the "computer" was still operating when turned off. I'll see if I can find the article some time, and I don't remember the details, but the problem was solved while the quantum computer was without power. Who knows about those small critters called quarks...

 

Plus, non-dualistic spiritual beliefs that I mentioned in my other post say that this is closer to our true nature and that is where we existed prior to entering our physical body.

Sounds beautiful, but we can't know for sure, but we can always hope or dream about it.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

To support the biological view, you would also have to theorize how the brain had time to came up with all those reported experiences while the brain was dead.

 

Sorry, but in NDE's the brain is not dead. Heart stops, respiration stops, but the brain is still kicking until the last neuron is starved of the remaining oxygen and glucose. There is no recovery from complete brain death.

 

It takes approximately 7 minutes for the cerebral cortex to be completely starved of oxygen and even then the deeper parts of the brain can still be functioning. For a person to be considered clinically brain dead an EEG can be performed. When no activity shows for 30 minutes then the person is considered brain dead. I have never heard of a NDE where a person was pronounced brain dead, only clinically dead, which is the cessation of respiration and heart beat which cease long before the brain is starved of energy to operate.

[Guest Mr. XC]

Thank you for sharing your experience about your short dreams producing longer dream experiences. I do not recall doing that (although I do remember dreaming about waking up once) and other weirdness.

A side track to this, since you mentioned computers that loose memory when turned off. The new technology they're experimenting with, quantum computers, in one experiment the "computer" was still operating when turned off. I'll see if I can find the article some time, and I don't remember the details, but the problem was solved while the quantum computer was without power. Who knows about those small critters called quarks...

The article that you mentioned can be found here. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/mg18925405.700.html

[Ouroboros]

To support the biological view, you would also have to theorize how the brain had time to came up with all those reported experiences while the brain was dead.

 

Sorry, but in NDE's the brain is not dead. Heart stops, respiration stops, but the brain is still kicking until the last neuron is starved of the remaining oxygen and glucose. There is no recovery from complete brain death.

Ah, that explains it even more! So there is the possibility that the NDE person could be "recording" what people say in the room and remember it afterwards.

[Guest Mr. XC]

To support the biological view, you would also have to theorize how the brain had time to came up with all those reported experiences while the brain was dead.

 

Sorry, but in NDE's the brain is not dead. Heart stops, respiration stops, but the brain is still kicking until the last neuron is starved of the remaining oxygen and glucose. There is no recovery from complete brain death.

Correct. I should have used "no electrical activity in the brain" instead. According to EEG readings from the UK and Dutch studies, there was no detectable brain function.

 

So my question becomes, how would you theorize how that the brain recorded sound when it is accepted that there is no detectable brain function during these NDEs?

[Guest Mr. XC]

So my question becomes, how would you theorize how that the brain recorded sound when it is accepted that there is no detectable brain function during these NDEs?

I know it is a bit silly to quote myself here, but I think I came across as pushing some other religion or spiritual view here. To clarify, I would like to state that my goal in posting the above quote was just to show where there might be loose ends to our discussion. Also, I find non-dualistic theology quite interesting, and it shows in my posts. I will try to keep that down to a minimum or at least use neural language, but my goal is more to share how silly dualistic theologies can be (especially Christianity) and it sometimes helps to compare with non-dualistic ones.

 

I realize that there is probably a scientific explication for this, but it would be nice to get an idea of what that would be, since there seems to be some folks here that know a bit about that subject and do not mind sharing.

 

Too the love of knowledge!

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

To support the biological view, you would also have to theorize how the brain had time to came up with all those reported experiences while the brain was dead.

 

Sorry, but in NDE's the brain is not dead. Heart stops, respiration stops, but the brain is still kicking until the last neuron is starved of the remaining oxygen and glucose. There is no recovery from complete brain death.

Ah, that explains it even more! So there is the possibility that the NDE person could be "recording" what people say in the room and remember it afterwards.

 

 

From what I understand, people who have near death experiences are only revived with CPR and other life saving methods. When CPR is performed the brain is still getting oxygen and glucose. The brain itself does not store oxygen or glucose, which may have been misunderstood in my earlier comment, but it can last about 7 seconds on what it currently has in it. Since NDE experiences occur when they are being resuscitated the brain doesn't have to go through that starvation period, though the ones that do usually end up with some kind of permanent brain damage, unless they are very young.

 

When we are asleep the brain is, for the most part, shut down in some areas and very active in others. It is basically the same during unconciousness barring any sort of trauma to the brain or brain stem. You notice that when you are asleep and the TV is on, your brain is still listening but it is not processing and analyzing the sound as if you were awake. However, if someone calls your name over the sound of the television you usually wake up. At first, if you are dreaming, the sound of someone calling your name may be incorporate into the dream. So, yes Han, the brain is recording the sounds of what is going on around the person though it may be incorporating it into a dream-like situation providing the person with a NDE as described by so many.

 

But we must remember that after all neurological functions cease in the brain and the brain stem, there is no coming back. People can be put on life-support and the body will function and not decompose without the brain and the brain stem functioning but just like in Terry Shivo's case there is no coming back from complete brain death regardless of families hopes. You cannot grow new neurons post-puberty (the reason it is easier to learn as a child than as an adult) so any damage done by brain death is permanant in an adult. Children cannot repair damaged neurons but they can make new connections easier than an adult and restore functionality to parts of the body that could not function before. If it were possible to just keep the heart and lungs operating to supply the brain with the material to grow new brain cells then you could go to any 3 day old corpse and revive it to full functionality. This isn't the case. The study of stem cells, and lifting the ban placed upon it by the religious, could eventually lead to people with permanant brain or spinal cord damage to be able to walk, talk, and function normally again. However the religious right who can walk, talk, and funtion normally won't allow it.

 

MRXC, It depends on what kind of EEG was performed. Some EEG's only measure cortex function and not other parts of the brain. A better test would be an EPET scan or EMRI to measure actual activity since it would show the deeper parts of the brain and white matter activity that is not normally shown on an EEG. This is also why I said before that you have to monitor the EEG for 30 minutes for brain activity.

[Ouroboros]

Going down memory lane, I have an experience of hearing while sleeping too. I don't think anyone wants to read the story, but I'll tell it anyway.

 

Many years ago, not so many as the last story, I was getting some extra points in college, back in Sweden. It was some higher math studies, intense study during one semester. The class was once a month, a whole Saturday. We crunched through several chapters each time. Anyway, I was working in USA at the same time and went back and forth, between the countries. The time difference is 9 hours between Swedne and California, so the jetlag was pretty severe. Since I was working on a startup project, I basically worked as many days I could and wouldn't leave until Friday, and landed Saturday morning, 1 hour before class.

 

The jetlag could be felt mostly in the afternoon, around 3 PM. The teacher was going in highspeed, writing on the whiteboard, so you had to copy what he wrote, verbatim. One time, I fell asleep, and woke up immediately, but I could see that I had kept on writing about 2 paragraphs during the microsleep. It was just another of these weird things I have experienced.

[Fweethawt]

I have some of the most realistic dreams whenever I fall asleep with my head down in front of a computer monitor.

 

Is the monitor emitting some sort of invisible stuff (radiation?) that affects my brain in such a way?

[monsterfeets]

I've never had an NDE but I've had lots of dreams about dying. Heaven is fairly dissapointing and it's in a shopping mall parking lot. Everyone there has to have boring jobs like making posters. There's only one television set and you have to rent it out. But there is a really big buffet of all sorts of icecream. However the only currency in Heaven is quarters.

 

Also when you are dead you can stay on earth as long as you want and you are invisible. The downside of this is that you can only walk wherever you want to go ... the up side is other dead people are also on earth and have set up snack stands/cafes every 5-10 miles so that you can stop by for some free chips or soda. I guess that they are just imaginary chips and soda because you are dead and can't eat.

 

Its funny but despite me no longer being religious or really having any good reason to believe in the afterlife I still do, because of my weirdo dreams. I wont get into the nightmares about "hell" though. (and it's not really hell. it's a lot worse) Maybe this is the same reason people are so convinced after NDE's. I think maybe these people must normally not have as vivid dreams as I do because NDE's sound like my regular dreams.

 

I have also experienced the weird time warping abilities of dreams. I can fall asleep for 30 minutes and wake up and remember a dream that takes me atleast that long to write down because it seems like it went on for hours or days. One time I even had a dream that spanned nearly the entire life of the creatures in it.

 

And I -always- incorporate sounds into my dreams. Knocking, phones ringing, people talking. And one time I called someone in my sleep because my phone was sitting on my bed and I dreamt I was dialing her number. And I say weird things in my sleep like mathmatic equations and "please don't sit on me"

[Guest Mr. XC]

MRXC, It depends on what kind of EEG was performed. Some EEG's only measure cortex function and not other parts of the brain. A better test would be an EPET scan or EMRI to measure actual activity since it would show the deeper parts of the brain and white matter activity that is not normally shown on an EEG. This is also why I said before that you have to monitor the EEG for 30 minutes for brain activity.

So what are the chances that those EEG readings would have included activity in the primary auditory cortex? If the brain processes sound, would it have shown on the EEG?

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

MRXC, It depends on what kind of EEG was performed. Some EEG's only measure cortex function and not other parts of the brain. A better test would be an EPET scan or EMRI to measure actual activity since it would show the deeper parts of the brain and white matter activity that is not normally shown on an EEG. This is also why I said before that you have to monitor the EEG for 30 minutes for brain activity.

So what are the chances that those EEG readings would have included activity in the primary auditory cortex? If the brain processes sound, would it have shown on the EEG?

 

It depends upon the loudness and tone of the sound. Some sounds will barely register in the PAC and the auditory association area might not show any activity at all on an EEG but the sound may still be heard. If your looking for me to explain away some incident where the EEG showed no activity and someone had an out of body experience, well, I can't. Personal testimony or studies done to prove an NDE have to be looked at one at a time. Some personal testimony and studies that are done with the aim of proving the validity of NDE's have to be judged carefully because the end result is to "PROVE" that they occur and have to be weighed carefully to discard rigged tests or where the results are not objective. Personal testimony especially since it is personal and like religious experiences cannot be confirmed nor denied. Not all cases are the same, true, or objective. I tend to disregard any personal testimony that someone gives me regarding NDE's (or almost anything else really) especially if it is regarding a third party unless someone gives me actual documentation (not some website intent on proving NDE's). Anyone with the intent of proving that NDE has some religious association can say that they heard any given situation occurred in order to make their point.

[Antlerman]

Ironic you would post that... I had an interesting experience last night... I was coming off pain medication for a migraine and trying to fall asleep. I suddendly started dreaming of past life events.... I heard the sounds of pots and pans clannging inside my head (that is the only way I can think of describing it) and then I "saw" a green glowing glob. I couldn't move. I often get sleep paralysis, but this was different, but it's probably related... maybe a mini-seizure due to coming off high doses of hydrocodone. It was really strange, and if I still believed in spiritual stuff, I would say it was a demon or something. I felt an incredible amount of fear. I can see how people would be convinced of an afterlife or spirit after that, because space and time disappeared, but it was just my sleepy brain not shutting off completely before I snap myself out of it. I finally was able to grab my husband and my heart was racing a mile a minute.

 

Sleep paralysis is a fascinating phenomenon that can range from a sense of another presence in the room, all the way to a full blown hallucination with bright lights, voices, out of body experiences, etc. Read more

 

What is telling about these sorts of things as NDE's is that what the mind interprets these to be/mean, are typically associated with that person's cultures or mythologies. Many who are in cultures where demons are everywhere will experience these as demonic. More here

 

NDE's and sleep paralysis are not proofs of an afterlife. They're a brain fart and people supply the interpretations from the mythologies of their cultures.

[Guest exodus]

Its funny but despite me no longer being religious or really having any good reason to believe in the afterlife I still do, because of my weirdo dreams.

 

Same here. I have had dreams so weird, so real (words cannot describe) that I find hard to not believe in an afterlife. It's weird

 

exodus

[Skankboy]

What is telling about these sorts of things as NDE's is that what the mind interprets these to be/mean, are typically associated with that person's cultures or mythologies. Many who are in cultures where demons are everywhere will experience these as demonic.

 

Agreed. Yesterday's succubi and inccubi are today's little green men. The costumes may change from time to time and culture to culture, but the actual events mentioned are almost alway identicle... I believe this says as much about the human brain as anything...