12 Step Program, Cult, Religion Or Program

[Guest r3alchild]

I have had some experience with the 12 steppers and I was thinking about a few things. Is the 12 step a cult is it a religion or is it a program as they say. Now for arguments sake we say its not a program, does the court system have the right to send offenders into a religion or possibly a cult.

 

Your thoughts.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

All of the 12 step programs I've seen friends go through have had a "higher power" that forms the basis. One guy had Allah as his god, most of the others had Jesus or came to Jesus after trying to lose weight via the 12 step approach (and a Christian sponsor who used the position to proselytize). The courts and jail system don't have any problem at all with Christianity. The word Penitentiary comes from the word "penitent" or sorry for one's sins, and was based on the work of Christianity to make prisons more humane and geared away from punishment and towards change. Bibles are commonplace in jails, if you want one. 

 

12 step programs say that they don't care what your "higher power" is, but many believers actively use the groups as a mission field. That said, the steps do work for some people. Others don't experience any change at all. Of course, the higher power is only their own selves, but that doesn't sell well for some reason.

[Guest r3alchild]

I did not know that.

[Pantophobia]

Addicts replace their addiction to booze or pills with addiction to Jesus. How is that healthy? 

[Guest r3alchild]

Depends what you mean by healthy. Getting of drugs or addictions is healthy either way.

[miekko]

Addicts replace their addiction to booze or pills with addiction to Jesus. How is that healthy? 

Jesus doesn't ruin your liver. (And the way he ruins your brain is less destructive than the way some drugs do.)

[Margee]

The people in the 12 step programs are not nearly as fundamental  in their religious beliefs as the church. Of course, you will run into those. Generally, a 'chair' can be your higher power if you want it to be.  I got into trouble in my late 20's with alcohol when I left the church for awhile. I wasn't worthy to teach Sunday school or sing in the choir because of my smoking. I was already feeling very bad about myself, so someone introduced me to wine. i had never been a drinker. I went on an eight year drunk, ruined my life and AA saved my sorry ass. Then I went back to 'Jesus' and fucked my life up more....

 

 I have been sober for 21 years now. I have made hundreds of friends over the years in A.A..Wonderful people who used alcohol to cope with life like I did. 

 

To me...it's like Ex-c...a bunch of people gathering together to help each other with a 'common' problem.

[pandora]

There are freethinker AA/NA groups in my area.   There are atheist 12 steps online, and a few books published that approach the philosophy from a freethinker standpoint. The atheist groups have faced persecution from the overarching organization, but they fought to stay legit, and they won.     Some groups are rather cultish and Christian, others not so much.   The 12 steps are meant to be a guide, and they are an okay one at that.   Some people take the whole thing waaaay too seriously though. 

[Guest r3alchild]

One of the things the 12 step says to its members, is if you leave the program you will relapse. Also there 12 steps are ridged and you have to follow them religiously or you will fail. Then theres one of the steps that says, to take this message to all addicts.

 

To me that sounds fishy.

[buffettphan]

Interesting articles, FWIW   

 

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a0.html

 

http://www.moonmac.com/Cult_Called_AA.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/cult-or-cure-the-aa-backlash-1160113.html

 

 

While I'm happy that 12-step programs have worked for some people, I've got to with cult, generally speaking.  I've never been part of any 12-step program, but two relatives of mine who've been through AA and NA are now two of the biggest brainwashed obnoxious fundamentalist jesus freaks I've ever met.

[Vigile]

The fact that there appears to be no scientific support which concludes 12-step is effective should give pause:

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746426/

What, then, is the scorecard for AA effectiveness in terms of
specificity? Among the rigorous experimental studies, there were two
positive findings for AA effectiveness, one null finding, and one
negative finding. Among those that statistically addressed selection
bias, there were two contradictory findings, and two studies that
reported significant effects for AA after adjusting for potential
confounders such as motivation to change. Readers must judge for
themselves whether their interpretation of these results, on balance,
supports a recommendation that there is no experimental evidence of AA
effectiveness (as put forward by the Cochrane review).

 

Anecdotally, I've known a couple, three members who were all big proselytizers.  One guy insisted I was an alcoholic when he found out I got drunk once or twice a year (upon answer to his question). 

 

Finally, I don't know that it's healthy to call yourself an alcoholic that is incurable regardless of your problems with alcohol.  That can't be a healthy image to carry around and it reminds me of the original sin dilemma they stick xians with. 

[RipVanWinkle]

I think AA is as good or bad as each separate group. It's the people in the groups that make it work or fail. bill

[midniterider]

All of the 12 step programs I've seen friends go through have had a "higher power" that forms the basis. One guy had Allah as his god, most of the others had Jesus or came to Jesus after trying to lose weight via the 12 step approach (and a Christian sponsor who used the position to proselytize). The courts and jail system don't have any problem at all with Christianity. The word Penitentiary comes from the word "penitent" or sorry for one's sins, and was based on the work of Christianity to make prisons more humane and geared away from punishment and towards change. Bibles are commonplace in jails, if you want one. 

 

12 step programs say that they don't care what your "higher power" is, but many believers actively use the groups as a mission field. That said, the steps do work for some people. Others don't experience any change at all. Of course, the higher power is only their own selves, but that doesn't sell well for some reason.

 

 If I was forced to do a 12 step program by the court my higher power would be Mickey Mouse! :-) The courts seem to have the right to do it and well, I'd do it instead of jail.

 

Here's an interesting really long article about the uselessness of 12 step programs. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

[midniterider]

One of the things the 12 step says to its members, is if you leave the program you will relapse. Also there 12 steps are ridged and you have to follow them religiously or you will fail. Then theres one of the steps that says, to take this message to all addicts.

 

To me that sounds fishy.

 

To think anything is foolproof is foolish and arrogant.

[Jose]

When I was trying to kick pain pills I went to an NA meeting... ONE NA meeting.

 

Seemed way too cultish, so I bailed. The frozen smiles that never reached their eyes... them crazy eyes  . No, thank you. 

 

I'm not powerless. I'm not weak. I am able to regain control of my life, FYVM. And I think it's pretty apparent I was right about not being powerless since I haven't taken a single pill since May. Two months ago, when I thought booze might be getting on top of me, I quit for two weeks. Totally fine. 

 

My only really vices anymore are smokes and shitty food and I'm taking on cigarettes next (this paycheck I'm getting e-cigs) and then in April, me and the Mrs. are switching back to plant-based eating.

 

Fuck your higher power, NA.

[pandora]

In my area, if you exert your right to not be forced to attend AA or NA meetings, they won't push the subject further.   They truly honestly can't make you, and if you are court-ordered to go, then they can't really do anything about it.   But you have to stay clean. LOL

 

I am not forced to go by any legal order, but I am forced to go by my profession, which is entirely a different thing.   I like the fellowship and have made some great friends.   There is nothing like getting a bunch of former addicts together.   It's a hoot even when we are all sober!   And truly, only former addicts can understand where the addict has been.   I believe that addiction is on a spectrum... some people need meetings and God and complete abstinence to stay sober.  Others can find a more moderate way.   Me, I have found a great group of freethinking friends who know where I've been and don't judge.    That is what it is about to me.   It is about other things for other people.  I am lucky that I have two atheist groups in my city.   I would absolutely hate the program and never go to any meetings if it weren't for that.  I can't stand to hear the Jesus-heads go on and on about how you can't do it until you find God.  Obviously, my home groups aren't so much into the powerlessness and belief that we can have no self-control.   However, I do believe there are some where the cliche "one is too many and a thousand never enough" holds true.  Some people can never touch whatever substance again... or they will eventually go down the same road... jails, institutions, or death.   (We always say that phrase at my meetings with a melodramatic flair to add some humor to it).  

[pandora]

One of the things the 12 step says to its members, is if you leave the program you will relapse. Also there 12 steps are ridged and you have to follow them religiously or you will fail. Then theres one of the steps that says, to take this message to all addicts.

 

To me that sounds fishy.

Well, if as a Christian, you found that you had to accept the whole Bible or nothing at all, maybe you would feel the same way about AA/NA.  I was a more moderate Christian and likewise I do not take the 12 steps as scripture.   I can see the value in the program for what it is worth, and leave the stupid stuff in the rooms with the crazy God-freaks.

[Guest r3alchild]

I have heard that about the 12 step. But when I think about only taking the good and leaving the bad I feel and think I am ignoring everything that disputes its claim to be the only way I can recover as an addict.

 

Did you know theres a rumor that there is a hidden 13 step.

[pandora]

LOL Yes, and I've been the target of much attempted 13th stepping when my fiance isn't around...

 

 It isn't the only way to recover as an addict at all, and the people at my meetings don't spout that bullshit.   Each step works to address different issues different people may have.  The cultists view the whole thing as God-given Scripture and sacrosanct... and the Big Book is the Bible.  

 

NA folks tend to be milder in dogmatic approach.  The thing about NA that helped me was learning about my own inner thought patterns and attitudes that led to my drug abuse.   I was a big resentment-holder and I often took way too much way too personally.  I was easily wounded.    My self-pity led me to think I deserved to escape this world, in whatever way I wished damn the consequences.

 

I see the 12 steps in their simplest form as this:  take responsibility for your own actions and always look for ways to improve yourself.  

 

Here's an atheist version, one of many all over the internet:

 

Step 1: Admitted that I need help to stop drinking.

Step 2: Came to believe I can stop drinking with the help of others.(1)

Step 3: Made a decision to trust my own inner wisdom.(2)

Step 4: Took a good look at the unhealthy thoughts and behaviors that got me into this mess.

Step 5: Talked to someone about these thoughts and behaviors.

Step 6: Was ready to accept help to correct my unhealthy thoughts and behaviors.

Step 7: Asked someone for help.

Step 8: Made a list of the people who have been adversely affected by my drinking and became willing to make amends to them.

Step 9: Made amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.(3)

Step 10: Continued to monitor my thoughts and behaviors and found someone to talk to when harmful patterns returned.

Step 11: Sought through meditation and calm contemplation to stay in touch with my own inner wisdom.

Step 12: Tried to help others struggling with addiction and practice these principles in other areas of my life.

[pandora]

Personally, I like this version of step 3: 

 

We each nominated greater powers to remind us there are things bigger than ourselves and not to play god – then we began to let go of self-will.

 

A therapist said this to me once... "I don't know if there is a god, but I know I'm not it."

 

The whole thing is about ego down-sizing... stopping trying to control things that are beyond my control.   It literally drives me insane.

[Guest r3alchild]

That was one of the most creative and insightfull overhaul of the 12 steps I have ever read. Now all you have to do is start a new program based on those steps. And remake the big book to reflect the power of the group rather than the higher fsm.

[pandora]

If the system weren't already saturated with the original, that wouldn't be a bad idea!  Having been going to these damn meetings for a couple years now, I can say that even when I have to go to a God meeting, I am able to "translate" to my own world view and not get too offended.   

 

As to your original post, which I failed to address completely, I do think it is a religion in the sociological sense, and apparently the courts see it the same way.   At least here, they can order you to go, but they can't enforce any punishment if you don't go.   However, you'll have a much harder time getting a reduced sentence if you fight a judge on it without agreeing to some sort of self-help program or counseling.   It is free and easily accessible, so people generally go along with it.   They are the ones keeping the groups alive.  People come and go all the time, usually exactly at the time they don't need papers signed anymore.  

 

AA/NA is a very powerful organization, unfortunately, and the crazies are at the helm.  Someone out here is getting rich off all those dollar per meeting donations dish out (I never contribute, BTW).  AA/NA won't save anyone unless that person is already "ready" to quit on their own.   Some people have to reach rock-bottom before they want to change, others are a little wiser.  

 

Here's a cool "devotional" book that an atheist wrote for people in recovery.    It is good for those even not in recovery.   We are all addicts to something to some extent!  Most of the entries are non-addiction related.

 

http://books.google.com/books/about/Beyond_Belief.html?id=WhGblwEACAAJ

[ContraBardus]

All of the 12 step programs I've seen friends go through have had a "higher power" that forms the basis. One guy had Allah as his god, most of the others had Jesus or came to Jesus after trying to lose weight via the 12 step approach (and a Christian sponsor who used the position to proselytize). The courts and jail system don't have any problem at all with Christianity. The word Penitentiary comes from the word "penitent" or sorry for one's sins, and was based on the work of Christianity to make prisons more humane and geared away from punishment and towards change. Bibles are commonplace in jails, if you want one.

 

12 step programs say that they don't care what your "higher power" is, but many believers actively use the groups as a mission field. That said, the steps do work for some people. Others don't experience any change at all. Of course, the higher power is only their own selves, but that doesn't sell well for some reason.

Actually, if you look at the actual numbers from the limited information that was wrested from the hands of 12 step programs by force over the years. The 'cure' rate is exactly the same as people who simply stop cold turkey on their own. Somewhere around 6%.

 

12 step programs are incredible BS, but people will swear by them if they spend any time away from their drug of choice after attending the program. Despite the fact that the evidence indicates that it was just their own personal willpower and a personal desire to quit that achieved that goal.

 

Of course, 12 step programs don't like this information to get out. They like to take credit and drag more people into the 'faith' through their thinly veiled dogma. I've known several people who have been forced into these programs through work and other friends, and I've seen enough to know that it's heavily suggested that your 'higher power' be named 'Jesus' but you can call it what you want, wink wink nudge nudge, say no more...

 

These programs are incredibly reluctant to release information about their own success rates, which is quite telling considering when such information does leak out that the evidence suggests that the programs are no more effective than simply quitting on your own.

 

It's thinly veiled court sanctioned religious indonctronization that stays just enough outside the lines of brainwashing people into service to the Lawd to stay out of legal trouble. Once again, the majority of Americans turn a blind eye because they don't want to admit America has devolved into being a Christian Nation openly for some strange reason.

 

Most likely because that would make it harder to whine about how the Liberals are persecuting them and trying to destroy God, take away all their 'freedoms', and kill all theh babies.