Jon Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 How can a person like richard wurmbrand survive years in solitary confinment,endure torture,listen to a radiogram for 11 hours a day saying "communism is good,God is dead over and over and over, please tell me how does one endure this torment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 masturbation? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 29 minutes ago, pratt said: masturbation? Funny, but no. I used to be a runner & when you run long distances you learn to put you mind somewhere else. I often played a round of golf in my mind as I ran. POW's did the same thing. You create an alternative reality in your mind & you mentally go there & shut out the reality that you are actually in. It is somewhat amazing how effective this technique is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted April 2, 2017 Author Share Posted April 2, 2017 what tosh,i mean really??? Torture,solitary confinment,starvation,mental abuse:all for ones faith in jesus,and lets be real it was his faith and only that,but he never backed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travi Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Do you have evidence to back up it was "his faith and and only that?" How do we know that the man didn't do as geezer said? Put his mind in a different place? Humans are capable of extraordinary feats of mind and willpower. When survival instinct kicks in, you do what it takes to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted April 2, 2017 Author Share Posted April 2, 2017 when i say "only his faith" I mean he committed no crime. He was imprisoned for believing in jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travi Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Then where were you going with this? You are claiming that it was his faith that imprisoned him, but you asked how he endured the torment. Geezer gave an informed answer, then you jumped to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 2, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted April 2, 2017 Irrespective of how or why, his life is just one data point--one dot on the graph of human belief and endurance. It is anecdotal evidence at best, nowhere near touching genuine proof that your god exists or partakes in the affairs of humanity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted April 2, 2017 Author Share Posted April 2, 2017 How many times do I have to say "all we can do is point to evidences" .I cant prove God, you cant disprove him,and i know the burden is on me. I never come on here shouting the odds,I have already learnt a lot from the "lions den crew" so to speak. And Wurmbrand is one data point. What about morher theresa,terry waite,nate saint,george muller........? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 7 hours ago, Jon said: what tosh,i mean really??? Torture,solitary confinment,starvation,mental abuse:all for ones faith in jesus,and lets be real it was his faith and only that,but he never backed down. Guys most people here know how strong faith is. It's no mystery to why he would have held to it and then a credited his survival to God afterward. His faith isn't what kept him alive. His faith is what kept him Christian. Ask yourself. What was his alternative? What werr his doctrinal beliefs? It may well have been that he truly believed that if he denied God/Christ that he believed he would then suffer eternally. In his mind he knew that what he went through here was only temporary. You can put yourself through a lot of crap if you think there is something worse afterward if you don't and something unimaginably better if you do keep the faith. DB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 2, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted April 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Jon said: How many times do I have to say "all we can do is point to evidences" .I cant prove God, you cant disprove him,and i know the burden is on me. I never come on here shouting the odds,I have already learnt a lot from the "lions den crew" so to speak. And Wurmbrand is one data point. What about morher theresa,terry waite,nate saint,george muller........? I think you are mistaken about who it is you are trying to convince. We all know you're not trying to convince us; I think you know it as well. But perhaps you didn't realize that it is, in fact, yourself you are trying to convince. Think about that for a while before responding to it. Yes, each individual data point adds to the overall "evidence" that you are looking for. But, aren't there just as many data points that support Islam? How many Muslims have suffered, been tortured, even died in the name of Allah? What allowed them to endure? Their faith? That's weird... isn't their faith misplaced in a false god? And if suffering for one's faith is the measure of proof to validate a religion, you should seriously consider converting to Judaism. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 I didn't think to bring that point out redneck professor. I'm glad you did. It didnt occur to me that that might be the angle jon was going at to prove that God was real. That's right Jon. You can't make an arguement for the accuracy or truthfulness of the bible based on someone elses faith. Even pagans and witches have died and been tortured as a result of their faith, most the time at the hand of Christians, who I guess we're spreading the good word and showing gods love. ? DB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Jon said: How many times do I have to say "all we can do is point to evidences" .I cant prove God, you cant disprove him,and i know the burden is on me. I never come on here shouting the odds,I have already learnt a lot from the "lions den crew" so to speak. And Wurmbrand is one data point. What about morher theresa,terry waite,nate saint,george muller........? That "data point" is evidence for Wurmbrand's religious belief/faith, and nothing more. The same is true for the other people you list. Once you lump them together and claim, "See, many people have religious belief/faith, therefore my sky fairy exists', you are simply presenting an argument from popularity fallacy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted April 2, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 2, 2017 It's like the fine tuning argument for the existence of God. Fine tuning doesn't prove God, it only points to the reality we are in confirms to a multitude of constants that were they any different would mean we'd be in a different reality. This doesn't say anything about the actual existence of God. Unless you can establish there is a God, then that there is a direct casual link between God and universal constants all you have is un-based assertions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Jon, all your anecdote proves is that people sometimes have strong faith that allows them to endure horrific situations. It is not evidence for a god. It is evidence only for faith. If anything, the story demonstrates that your alleged god can't be trusted to protect its own, and would rather "test" them for prolonged periods to see if they'll crack, rather than giving them a helping hand when they really need one. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 2, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted April 2, 2017 Jon, If you believe that faith in god gave your data points the strength and courage to endure, what gave the following data points the same strength and courage in what they went through? https://www.gspellchecker.com/2016/02/tortured-for-being-an-atheist-i-interview-waleed-al-husseini/ http://mpc-journal.org/blog/2016/09/02/jailed-and-tortured-for-being-atheist/ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/9/7/1327823/-Brave-atheist-to-be-tortured-imprisoned-in-Saudi-Arabia-Christian-persecution-fetishists-quiet Perhaps the hardcore truth and reality is that neither faith nor god has anything to do with the human capacity for suffering with dignity. Maybe it has more to do with the strength of a person's character, or the hope of a brighter future. Maybe love is all we need. Who knows? One thing is certain, though: the fact that people do suffer in this world does more to discredit the idea of a loving god than it does to support it. Have a nice day, TRP 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 2, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted April 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Jon said: when i say "only his faith" I mean he committed no crime. He was imprisoned for believing in jesus. And others have been and currently are imprisoned and killed for NOT believing in Jesus. What's the point? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 how abour muslims blowing themselves up for their god? bigger and better and truer believer? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted April 3, 2017 Moderator Share Posted April 3, 2017 Essentially people will die for what they believe in. That's they only thing we can conclude with any confidence. And no particular God is associated with all these examples - in fact different Gods, different religions, no religions, no Gods are all factors. The only combining factor is people believed in something strongly enough to die for it. Buddhist monks have set themselves on fire. Unsurprisingly our favourite apologetics website Answers in Genesis has an answer: The others are martyrs, they are x Y and Z, but Christian martyrs are special because they died for Jesus. https://answersingenesis.org/religious-freedom/christian-martyr-different-from-other-faiths/ So like much of the apologetics Christians ignore the main question and simply claim THEIR religion is special.... meanwhile in Saudi Arabia someone is claiming THEIR religion is special, and in Tibet a Buddhist monk... you get the point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Mother Theresa? i highly recommend reading Missionary Position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 "Mother" Teresa (Agnes whatever-the-hell-her-name-was) was a sadistic freak of a person who held power over large sums of money and a large organization, yet allowed people to starve and suffer in horrific conditions because SHE said "it brought them closer to the suffering Christ", but it was in fact so that she could keep up a facade of humble poverty. She was a con artist and a fraud. Jon, I know why you don't want to debate... you want nasty L.B., not smart L.B. - because nasty L.B. can be written off as hostile and bitter. If we actually converse and discuss in a serious, structured way, your whole house of cards comes down. I know so. You are, right now, where I was a couple of years ago - already not believing, but not allowing myself to admit it, and not wanting to shed the comfy little cocoon of Christianity's socio-political and socio-economic bubble. You just keep throwing punches - offering up the lousiest, easiest-to-refute, stupid arguments - and you know that you're on your way out. You just keep asking the myths to save you in the real world, and that just isn't going to happen. These arguments make other bubble-babies go, "ooohh!" and "aahh!" and aren't you so, so clever; all they're doing is trading one bad explanation of bullshit for another. Out here, outside the fake world your religion wants to maintain, that Potemkin Village of inanity - out here, the idiotic ideas you're throwing at us are laughable when they're not so sad. Just give it up already. We're here to welcome you with open arms, and MANY people here have a TON of resources for you when you need to know what's next after you leave the Jebus cult for good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroTom Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Jon I don't have an answer for your question, so I'll answer a question that I'm able to talk about (old college exam trick). My father was a completely devoted Catholic. He was an extremely intelligent engineer who was also interested in philosophy, mysticism and other things. He never explicitly stated it but I'm fairly sure he had intense doubts and conflicts about his beliefs. I was never able to discuss religion with him without it quickly degenerating into an angry, emotional, authoritative tirade. When it was all said and done, his ultimate reason for being steadfast in the faith was this (I admit some guess work here on my part): The saints were tortured and martyred for their faith. We can't simply choose to not believe. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 On 4/2/2017 at 9:41 AM, Travi said: Do you have evidence to back up it was "his faith and and only that?" How do we know that the man didn't do as geezer said? Put his mind in a different place? Humans are capable of extraordinary feats of mind and willpower. When survival instinct kicks in, you do what it takes to survive. Isnt believing in Jesus one way of creating an alternate reality in your head like Geezer said? LoL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travi Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 1 hour ago, midniterider said: Isnt believing in Jesus one way of creating an alternate reality in your head like Geezer said? LoL. Touche. It may well have been his faith in a god that kept him going. My question was, does he have evidence to back up it was his faith and nothing else. Yet, the thread got derailed after that because Jon completely lost me in his next post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 On 4/2/2017 at 9:45 AM, Jon said: when i say "only his faith" I mean he committed no crime. He was imprisoned for believing in jesus. What happens if you don't believe in Jesus? Aren't you tortured in Hell forever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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