Veggie-Tales!

[sumluvlifilth]

My son got up this morning and wanted to watch veggie-tales. I told him no. Not only is it not a very good teacher of Christian-theology, but it's "Christian-theology".

Well, he kind of freaked out. See, when I was going to church, I was taking my kids with me. When I stopped because I was working, I was allowing a couple of friends from the church to continue to take them to Sunday school. My husband has still allowed this to go on- probably because it's easier on him when he doesn't have two pre-schoolers to watch for a few hours- sometimes a whole day.

I want to broach the subject of telling these people no, they cannot take our kids to Sunday school, but I'm afraid of their reaction (not just my friends, but my kids and my husband).

My son gave me a lecture this morning about how he needs to know Jesus, and how the Veggie-tales will teach him about him. I told him, no, the Veggie-tales do not teach anything that is true about Jesus. He got upset. I asked him why he sees Jesus as so important, and he said, "I just need to know him mom!"

I didn't want to upset him more, so I dropped it, but told him he still couldn't watch Veggie-tales. We settled on Batman.

That's the other thing; Should I be telling my children what to believe? Is it moral for me to tell them definitively that Jesus isn't our lord and savior, but instead that he simply may or may not have existed as a regular dude?

I'm the one who taught my kids about Jesus in the first damn place, and I feel terrible for it. I can't help but think that I've planted them with a whole host of potential issues later on (just like I had) because I introduced it to them so young and it's become such a large part of their selves.

[centauri]

My son got up this morning and wanted to watch veggie-tales. I told him no. Not only is it not a very good teacher of Christian-theology, but it's "Christian-theology".

Well, he kind of freaked out. See, when I was going to church, I was taking my kids with me. When I stopped because I was working, I was allowing a couple of friends from the church to continue to take them to Sunday school. My husband has still allowed this to go on- probably because it's easier on him when he doesn't have two pre-schoolers to watch for a few hours- sometimes a whole day.

I want to broach the subject of telling these people no, they cannot take our kids to Sunday school, but I'm afraid of their reaction (not just my friends, but my kids and my husband).

From what little I've seen of Veggie Tales, I strikes me as just another tool used by spiritual pushers to make Jesus junkies out of kids.

It's not much different than a street pusher who tries to create as many paying customers as possible.

 

My son gave me a lecture this morning about how he needs to know Jesus, and how the Veggie-tales will teach him about him. I told him, no, the Veggie-tales do not teach anything that is true about Jesus. He got upset. I asked him why he sees Jesus as so important, and he said, "I just need to know him mom!"

Well, there it is.

"I know I need my dose of _______ to feel better".

The child has been turned into a junkie.

 

I didn't want to upset him more, so I dropped it, but told him he still couldn't watch Veggie-tales. We settled on Batman.

That's the other thing; Should I be telling my children what to believe? Is it moral for me to tell them definitively that Jesus isn't our lord and savior, but instead that he simply may or may not have existed as a regular dude?

It depends on how much propaganda has already been stuffed into their head.

If they start telling you things are facts, reverse the parent-child role and ask them "why"?

The child is simply parroting back his acquired beliefs, the baggage given to him by others.

Critical thinking is a pretty good skill to have, regardless of age.

 

I'm the one who taught my kids about Jesus in the first damn place, and I feel terrible for it. I can't help but think that I've planted them with a whole host of potential issues later on (just like I had) because I introduced it to them so young and it's become such a large part of their selves.

Parents are allowed to change their minds and make "mistakes".

Jesus is like Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny.

Parents will often go along with these tales until at some point, they just don't work anymore for the child.

Don't beat yourself up, but don't pretend either.

Questioning acquired beliefs is healthy and it's part of the learning process.

You can't stop the child from believing, but you can question their reasons.

[PaulQ]

My son has a few Veggie Tales tapes, bought for him by my nutty in-laws.

 

I've let him watch it, but I also let him watch other types of programming as well. He understands that it's all "Make Believe" anyway.

 

He doesn't like Veggie Tales all that much. I think if I made it forbidden, he would only want to watch it more. By letting him watch it and ridiculing it at the same time, he's more like, "Why would I watch that crap?" It really is crap.

[hereticzero]

When I was a fundy, I never let my kid watch Veggie Tales. The purple dinosaur was all I could handle then.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I kind of know what you mean. My 3 year old daughter goes to Sunday school with my mother in law. I live with them and I enjoy the quiet Sunday mornings to sleep in. Its a very liberal United Methodist church so its mostly just daycare with a Jesusy craft (like cross shaped stickers on construction paper). She sees a picture of Jesus and doesn't recognize him - Jesus is a baby to her. So I don't feel that there is any harm in her going for a little longer. I get some christian movies from my grandparents and she watched one (it was really bad) before I could discretely dispose of it.

 

I'd say if your kids are getting worried about not knowing Jesus that its time to stop sending them to Sunday school. Replace that time with a different fun activity they really enjoy. Get rid of the veggie tales movies and they will watch other things (like batman). If they are preschool, I'm sure they will quickly be distracted from Jesus and this won't impact them for long. My daughter has a lot of mythology books and fairy tale books. Don't need to teach them about how christianity is wrong just put it in the context of these things. They want to learn about Jesus, teach them about Zeus .

[OpheliaGinger]

Even as a believer I hated Veggie Tales--too superficial.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Wow I'm a little surprised you'd let your son be taken to church to be taught whatever they feel like.

 

Anyway, kids can be clever. You might be able to point out some simple logicals flaws.

 

Who is Jesus?

 

"god blah blah blah"

 

How do you know?

 

"bible blah blah blah"

 

Who wrote the bible? Not god, humans.

Is the bible unique? No, there are other religions with holy texts.

Has God ever appeared? No, there is no documented existence.

Are you perfect? Is your sunday school teacher perfect? It is possible for someone to make a mistake?

 

Just keep forcing him to explain his beliefs, and give him a few objections to think about. Might help develop critical thinking. Kids will feel like they 'just know' but if you stay calm and don't go down to their level they will lose confidence. He is likely feels he needs to 'belong' to the church group.

 

Read Parenting beyond belief for guidance on teaching freethinking children.

 

Luckily he's young. Just stay calm and keep forcing him to think about things and not blindly parrot them.

[Dagan]

I don't really have a problem with Veggie Tales. They hardly ever talk about Jesus. In fact, I can't remember a single episode that did, and I've seen them all.

 

Yes, they quote bible verses, but they are, in general, lessons in morality which are sometimes quite funny and clever.

 

And my kids get a regular dose of other things like "playing outside," "doing arts and crafts" and "jumping like superman off the couch on to daddy's crotch when he's looking the other way and not expecting it."

 

If you're looking for good kids TV shows that teach logical and critical thinking, I highly recommend "Sid the Science Kid," "SuperWHY" and "Peep and the Big Wide World." My four-year-old and two-year-old love those shows and watch them a lot more than VeggieTales.

[blue_eyes]

I don't have kids, but I wish that when I WAS a kid my parents would have taught me to question. I grew up just learning to take things as they were given to me. I love the suggestions of those who have encouraged you to question him when he says things such as he needs jesus.

 

And as far as santa claus, easter bunny and tooth fairy...I have never understood why parents teach these things to their kids knowing that they're not real.

[ContraBardus]

The simplest answer is to find something else for them to watch. Experiment with different new shows until you find something that interests them.

 

It can be a pain I know, but giving in and letting them watch sometimes, but other times making them watch something different 'because I don't want to see it again' can force them into watching something new.

 

There was a period when I was a kid where I watched Star Wars on a daily basis. I did this for a very long time, and my parents grew sick of Episode IV.

 

They didn't cut me off though. Their original plan was to let me watch it until I got sick of it, but that didn't work out. Rather than make me go cold turkey they let me watch it once or twice a week, and made me watch something else the rest of the time. Eventually, I found other movies and shows I liked and I stopped watching the movie regularly on my own. I'll still watch Star Wars on occasion to this very day. Maybe once every couple of years or so.

 

Anyway, the point is that children's loyalty to a particular brand or show is brittle. Exposing them to new things eventually leads to them finding new 'favorites' and the old interest simply fades.

 

Just find something else for the child to watch. Anime can work wonders. Just be careful and make sure you know what you're buying is age appropriate. There are ratings on the cases that will let you know.

 

If they're into shows with music and cute stories, buy the Anmaniacs season sets. The Pinky and the Brain stuff is great as well.

 

Disney is another option. Not just the movies either, though they are great for kids. Darkwing Duck, Ducktales, Tailspin, Chip and Dale's Rescue Rangers, and Goof Troop all have season sets out. Pixar is another great option from Disney.

 

Get them into something else, and quietly put the Vegitales DVDs out of sight. For children of the age those DVDs are made for out of sight is out of mind after a short time.

 

The best way to deal with it is to give them better options. It's the least painful way to pull the thorn out and while weening a child off of a 'favorite' will lead to a bit of resistance initially. It usually doesn't last once the show starts.

 

The grandparents might be a problem, but most of what I suggested also contains positive moral messages that don't go against [and can even be seen as supporting] Christian beliefs. Pointing that out can curb the any resistance and leave them with nothing to complain about.

 

I can see where something like Batman might be a problem for the Grandparents. It's rather violent. The same can be said for a lot of anime geared towards older children as well. However, the shows produced for younger children can be just as good as the Disney stuff. [Hamtaro is a good example. It's about cute little hamsters.]

 

Though, I highly recommend Animaniacs as the anti-Vegitales. It's sure to be a lot less annoying for you personally, and has enough humor and music to draw young kids in, as well as characters that are easy to relate to and understand. [it also has a lot of jokes they won't get but you probably will, but they won't notice.]

 

Let this lie, and pretty soon your kids will be telling you that -you- need Jesus. That can be trying and annoying at the same time. Refusal to accept their brainwashed beliefs can upset them and lead to some emotionally difficult incidents. It can't be fun to see your own children afraid and worried about you because they think you're going to make God angry and go to Hell when you die. It bothers me when my parents pull that stuff with me, and I can't imagine it's any better to have your children do something like that to you.

 

Distraction, distraction, distraction. It's the best way to deal with a problem like this. If the child doesn't see the show, and it's not sitting around in plain sight to remind them it's there they'll forget about it. Kids are impulsive, and what's on hand that they can see is what will catch their attention first. Refusing to allow them to see it will only make it more appealing.

 

It's the same thing with prepubescent children and porn. If you leave a dirty magazine around, they might pick it up and flip through it, but if left on their own they'll quickly lose interest and ignore it.

 

However, if you make a big deal out of it, take it away, and tell them they aren't allowed to see it, it suddenly becomes much more interesting to them. They want to look at it and will take any opportunity to do so if they think they can get away with it.

 

If it comes down to psychological warfare you have the advantage.

 

If they want to see it showing no interest yourself and making a few comments about what you think of it can go a long way. Calling it stupid, baby stuff, and suggesting that grown ups and big kids wouldn't like something like that can do a lot towards a child's opinion of something like that. It's best to not relate it directly at them. For example, asking 'why would you watch something so stupid?' won't work as well as 'This is so dumb, they're just saying the obvious. It's not for big kids, but babies.'

 

Be psychological. Don't ridicule the child for watching it, but rather comment on the show itself and it's simple nature. Then, distract them with something 'better' and make praising comments. Not so much as to disrupt the show, but make it sound better.

 

Parents should be salesmen. Sell your kids on the products you want to promote, and downplay the competition. Don't force them, out think them. You've got the high ground so learn to use it.

 

That's my two cents anyway.

[sumluvlifilth]

The simplest answer is to find something else for them to watch. Experiment with different new shows until you find something that interests them.

 

It can be a pain I know, but giving in and letting them watch sometimes, but other times making them watch something different 'because I don't want to see it again' can force them into watching something new.

 

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing. Batman is his favorite thing to watch, so I'm letting him go with that. The thing that I'm worried about is the whole "I need to know more about Jesus" thing. But thank you for the advice. You're right, not making a big deal about it will probably help him to lose interest in it sooner.

[sumluvlifilth]

Wow I'm a little surprised you'd let your son be taken to church to be taught whatever they feel like.

 

 

Yeah, I know. I feel really bad about it. What makes it worse is that I once was a Sunday school teacher, so I know exactly the kind of crap they're shoving into their little heads.

Anyway, thanks for the book suggestion; I'll check it out.

[Neon Genesis]

So if God had just let Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit, they wouldn't have ate it and they'd still be in the garden?

[ContraBardus]

No problem. I don't have kids, but I was that sort of kid, and so was my sister. [Rainbow Brite, Strawberry Shortcake, and My Little Pony...ugh. ]

 

Christian programing when I was a kid isn't what it is today. I pretty much had Superbook and Davey and Goliath, or similarly crappy shows so that sort of programming never clicked with me.

 

We didn't have DVDs when I was young. I witnessed the birth of home video and it was pretty much geared towards the adult market. They didn't really put out children's programming until I was older, well, aside from the odd Sesame Street video and the occasional Disney tape. Otherwise, I would have been torturing my parents with He-man and Voltron. In my day, Christian programing was low budget and simply painful to watch even for children.

 

I can't recommend Animaniacs as the Anti-Veggitales enough. It's a great way to distract kids from shows like that. It's all the stuff kids like about that show less the Christian teachings and morality lessons. [it's actually a running gag in the show that there isn't really a lesson involved. 'The Wheel of Morality' often closes out episodes.] There's a lot of great music, and it's much less annoying for adults to watch over and over as some of the humor and references have adults in mind. Most kids today wouldn't know who the Marx Brothers or Jerry Lewis are for example. It also takes jabs at movies like Aliens and other pop culture that most children wouldn't really be aware of. It has enough Looney Tunes style humor and kid safe crudeness. [i.E. One episode has a character belching 'Blue Danube' after drinking an entire bottle of soda and then finishes the 'concert' by bowing and repeatedly saying 'Excuse me'.] They won't really notice they're not getting some of it.

 

My step sister had a similar problem. She wasn't concerned with the religious or moral messages, but was just entirely sick of the show and couldn't get her kids to stop watching it everyday. She and her husband are believers as well and my mother and her mother both kept giving her Veggitales DVDs. It was driving them up the wall putting up with it. I gifted her with the complete series in three boxed sets and her kids won't watch the moral CGI show anymore. She and her husband are not in the slightest bit upset about it.

 

It's funny, because my mother has a shelf full of Veggitales DVDs collecting dust at her house as well. I got the same sets for her, and the grandchildren insist on watching those instead when they come over now.

 

Here's a couple of scenes to show what I mean...

 

 

[lunaticheathen]

OMG! Contra, I LOVE the Animaniacs!!! What an awesome suggestion. It truly never gets old!

I don't have kids, but I can't see myself sending them off to sunday school for any reason. I get that some here were christians when they had kids, but...ew.

Don't force anything, but there are lots of good suggestions here to work with. And I second the Animaniacs DVD.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Gotta love it

[ContraBardus]

Yeah. Animaniacs, despite the gag of not having a 'lesson' is surprisingly educational.

 

Also, for those who don't know and haven't seen this show yet for some odd reason, each episode is composed of two or three five minute shorts, and usually a couple of one to two minute skits involving different characters. One is usually the Warner Brothers [and sister] characters in these videos. The shorts are actually very similar to Looney Tunes, in fact you could say that's exactly what they are. It's about as close to modern day Looney Tunes as you can get.

 

The intro gives a rundown of the normal cast of characters who show up in the shorts that make up the episodes. The mice are an absolute riot, and ended up with their own show. [Also available on DVD. ]

 

 

and just to use up the allotted video space, another of the more educational segments [it's a little outdated now, but still]...

 

 

It can do a lot to make parents look good if a child watches this show as regularly as many watch something like Veggitales and learn to rattle off the names of the countries, the states and capitols [and be able to point out where the are on a map no less], the U.S.Presidents, the parts of the brain, the scale of the Universe, and how to say 'Hello' in every major language in the world, as well as assorted other useful trivia just by learning a few of the songs in a favorite cartoon show.

 

I mean, a kid like that must be a genius after all. Heh.

[lunaticheathen]

Ahhhh, the memories.

[ContraBardus]

One more for good measure, just because...the mice...listen to the mice...obey the mice...

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li5nMsXg1Lk

 

Incidentally, the guy who does the voice of The Brain won an Emmy for it. He totally deserved it too.

[Overcame Faith]

sumluvlifilth:

 

Please pardon my intrusion into your personal life, but you posted this and asked for opinions. Here are my observations and opinions based on those observations. I hope you will take them in the way they are intended. I intend them as a way to help you.

 

What I see in this post and the topic you posted entitled, "Possessed," is confusion which is having an undesirable impact on your children. The reason your son is asking to see Veggie Tales and saying he needs to learn about jesus is because you are sending him to church. Based on your earlier post entitled "Possessed," I believe this church is pentecostal and you were well aware of the kinds of things they teach. But even if it wasn't a pentecostal church, you are familiar with christian churches because you have a history in them. Undoubtedly, it was someone in the church that you allowed your son to attend who told him that he needs to learn about jesus and probably told him that when he gets home to watch Veggie Tales. So when your son said he had to learn about jesus and wanted to watch Veggie Tales, he was trying to do what he thought you wanted him to do. You allowed him to go to church and so he thought he had your blessing, indeed in his young mind he may have thought he had your mandate, to learn what they taught him. But you confused him when you told him that "... the Veggie-tales do not teach anything that is true about Jesus" and then wouldn't let him watch the program. Your actions would have confuse anyone, but most especially a small child.

 

Only you and your husband can remove this confusion from your childrens' lives. Both of you need to provide them with a consistent message. Don't allow them to go to church and then act in opposition to what they learned there because they will continue to be confused about what message they are to take seriously. Either let them go to church and allow them to watch Veggie Tales as they are instructed there, or don't allow them to go to church and throw away the Veggie Tales DVDs. It's tough on little ones when they are being pulled in different directions. They look to you and to their father for guidance and direction in their lives. You and your husband need to present a consistent message to your children so they know how to act at home.

 

Best of luck to you and your family. I know that raising children is not easy, but it is still the best job on earth!

[sumluvlifilth]

So if God had just let Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit, they wouldn't have ate it and they'd still be in the garden?

I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But if I am firm with my policy on not letting them watch it (they don't watch it on a regular basis anyway) but don't make it out to be such a big deal, they're less likely to try and watch it anyway (Huh, I sound like a mom trying to keep her kids from porn don't I?). I'm still trying to figure out the best way to discuss this with my son. I haven't discussed religion with him since we stopped going to church. Maybe I'm over-thinking this.

[sumluvlifilth]

sumluvlifilth:

 

Please pardon my intrusion into your personal life, but you posted this and asked for opinions. Here are my observations and opinions based on those observations. I hope you will take them in the way they are intended. I intend them as a way to help you.

 

What I see in this post and the topic you posted entitled, "Possessed," is confusion which is having an undesirable impact on your children. The reason your son is asking to see Veggie Tales and saying he needs to learn about jesus is because you are sending him to church. Based on your earlier post entitled "Possessed," I believe this church is pentecostal and you were well aware of the kinds of things they teach. But even if it wasn't a pentecostal church, you are familiar with christian churches because you have a history in them. Undoubtedly, it was someone in the church that you allowed your son to attend who told him that he needs to learn about jesus and probably told him that when he gets home to watch Veggie Tales. So when your son said he had to learn about jesus and wanted to watch Veggie Tales, he was trying to do what he thought you wanted him to do. You allowed him to go to church and so he thought he had your blessing, indeed in his young mind he may have thought he had your mandate, to learn what they taught him. But you confused him when you told him that "... the Veggie-tales do not teach anything that is true about Jesus" and then wouldn't let him watch the program. Your actions would have confuse anyone, but most especially a small child.

 

Only you and your husband can remove this confusion from your childrens' lives. Both of you need to provide them with a consistent message. Don't allow them to go to church and then act in opposition to what they learned there because they will continue to be confused about what message they are to take seriously. Either let them go to church and allow them to watch Veggie Tales as they are instructed there, or don't allow them to go to church and throw away the Veggie Tales DVDs. It's tough on little ones when they are being pulled in different directions. They look to you and to their father for guidance and direction in their lives. You and your husband need to present a consistent message to your children so they know how to act at home.

 

Best of luck to you and your family. I know that raising children is not easy, but it is still the best job on earth!

I completely agree. This morning's episode has really opened my eyes to the contradictions I've subjected him to. I've already discussed it with my husband, and we'll be telling our friends that our children can no longer attend sunday school with them. I kept justifying it by saying that they're little and they won't be learning that whole fear of hell thing yet, but it's a stupid justification. I was really doing it because it was easier, that's all.

Anyway, thank you for the advice. And to everyone else: Thanks for the advice and the animaniacs clips! I love that show and so do my kids

[ContraBardus]

It can be difficult to bring up at the age you're talking about.

 

On the one hand, it's good to be honest and explain that you don't think that Christianity is true or that Jesus was God.

 

On the other hand, that could cause problems if he continues to go to church and blurts out what he was told at home there. Not just for the child either, as it often leads to 'concern' from members of the congregation and unwanted visits or calls from them.

 

Children at that age are easily confused and may take your assertions as other people lying or being stupid [which is debatable].

 

I personally don't think that we should have to hide our beliefs, but you're sending him into the 'Lion's Den' so to speak by sending him to services. They're going to do what they can to convince him that he needs Jesus and that the Lord is the most important thing of all in his life. Even if it means going against you. It's what they do, that's the entire point of congregations and the purpose of Sunday School. Things like Veggitales are supplementary materials to that process.

 

It's a difficult subject, because you're dealing with what boils down to a conflict of authority there.

 

It's not so easy to explain that not every adult is right, and that people have different beliefs to young children. It can also be turned around and the other side can convince him that you are not right and need to be corrected.

 

They are pros at this. Churches literally give training in how to recruit new members. They know how to speak to children and what approach to take. Love bombing mixed with fear mongering in the form of [usually] indirect threats about the fate of those who do not follow the faith.

 

If there's no one in your home in the faith who can force your hand, I'd say that getting your child out is your best option. It's your child. You have a right to say no, whether it's a polite decline, or a forceful refusal.

 

Not confusing the issue is the best option. Though, you shouldn't try and shelter him from the beliefs of others either. That can be a fine line to walk, especially with younger children.

 

Edit: You ninjaed me. I say good call.

[PaulQ]

And as far as santa claus, easter bunny and tooth fairy...I have never understood why parents teach these things to their kids knowing that they're not real.

 

I know why I taught my kid about these things. It was so that, when he learns the truth about them, he will be equally as critical when it comes to religion. As far as I'm concerned, Santa Claus is the best friend an atheist parent can have in teaching their kids about critical thinking.

[OpheliaGinger]

I grew up on Ren and Stempy.