Is Suicide Ever Ok?

[Mike D]

I think in general many people (maybe most people), believe suicide is never ok.  Aside from religious arguments (it's a sin), there's the point of view that it's selfish, cowardly, things will get better, blah, blah, blah.

 

I do think people who have others dependent on them for their livelihood (ie kids, spouse/partner), have a lot to think about before taking their own life, because it will have a severe negative impact on those people's lives.  However, that alone isn't a reason to live.

 

I think if someone wants to take their own life, and it's a rational decision, it's ok.

 

Some people just really aren't meant for this world.

[mymistake]

I would say no for the young and healthy.  Depression can be treated.  However I'm okay with allowing terminal patients to die with dignity, especially if they are in pain or have lost much of their body function.    

[Mike D]

I would say no for the young and healthy.  Depression can be treated. 

 

So here's another question:  If it's not ok for some people, would you intervene if you thought someone was going to, or would you let that be their own choice?

[SilentLoner]

Yes.

[SilentLoner]

I would say no for the young and healthy.  Depression can be treated.  However I'm okay with allowing terminal patients to die with dignity, especially if they are in pain or have lost much of their body function.    

 

There have been some cases of lifelong, chronic depression that treatment can't seem to fix. 

[FlowerDemon]

You can't really say suicide is ok or not ok. It just is. It's a dark part of reality that is scary and devastating, and it's one of the worst ways you could lose a loved one. It scars everyone who knew the person for the rest of their life. Nothing is ever the same after you lose someone to suicide. If you lost someone to old age or cancer, it would be a bit easier to accept it since his time had come...but with suicide, the person chose his own time to leave this world. And then it leaves you thinking "well what could have i done to help him? i feel so shitty that he killed himself, i should have been more there for him and more supportive, and offering help."

 

I will say suicide is definitely not an option worth taking

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Also, it would be good to consider the cost of disposal of your body and any cleanup. If you die in the house, there can be a professional hazmat charge to clean the place after any police investigation. Cremation and burial are not exactly cheap either, and funeral homes can chat people up in cost during their grief.

 

Then there is the emotional fallout for others, especially if they aren't expecting it.

 

Some in the news recently decided to "spare" their family the financial and emotional hardship by killing them first. That's the worst idea in the world.

[miamia]

Well, I would say in the grand scheme of things, it matters about as much as anything else. I don't know if its "right" or "wrong". I love to learn but I hate having to come to conclusions. I think I it's important to understand the difference between depression, and suicide urges. It's also kind of interesting to look at the function that suicide has played in different cultures from history, to modern day.

• Some people who may or may not have depression have the occasional compulsive urge to kill themselves. These urges generally last about 15 minutes. What people are trying to accomplish by talking someone off a ledge is not to convince them they want to live, but stall them long enough for this compulsion to pass. My gut feeling is that this kind of urge to kill yourself is a glitch in the way your brain works, because many of these people don't actually want to kill themselves and don't feel miserable for the majority of their waking moments.
• Some people are extremely miserable throughout their day to day lives, because of terminal illness, constant pain, discomfort, etc; things that can't be gotten over or fixed. While I'm not comfortable with the idea of helping these people die, I'm also uncomfortable with the idea of forcing them to live, if death is truly their only option for respite from the kind of misery a healthy person can't even begin to fathom. However, if euthanasia was legal, there is a chance it would be abused, like anything else.
• Some experience emotional suffering, sometimes caused by a faulty brain(which yes, is sometimes impossible to fix,so it would fall into the misery category above) , sometimes caused by social pressures, that drives them to suicide over a period of time, or they have intermittent urges like stated above. Common in young people and compounded by youths temporarily hampered reasoning ability. Preventable in many cases.

Then there is ritual suicide,also very common, which is the hardest one to wrap my head around. 

• Ancient Japan survived and thrived despite the high acceptance of ritual suicide in their culture. As grisly as it was, it served a prominent function in the mechanism of a social structure that could certainly be considered successful even by modern standards. After all, they are still here. Their suicide rate is still astronomical.Again I'm not defending suicide, or condemning it, just stating the facts. This just goes to show that it probably is not detrimental to society as a whole.
• In one tribe I watched a documentary on (and please excuse me because regrettably I can't remember their peoples' name), suicide by ingesting poison is a very accepted part of mourning a loved one.

Idk.  Some more interesting facts on suicide: http://facts.randomhistory.com/2009/07/15_suicide.html   

SO I guess my answer is maybe in certain cases it's ok. but what does ok really mean in relation to everything else?

 

[Mike D]

Nothing is ever the same after you lose someone to suicide. If you lost someone to old age or cancer, it would be a bit easier to accept it since his time had come...but with suicide, the person chose his own time to leave this world. And then it leaves you thinking "well what could have i done to help him? i feel so shitty that he killed himself, i should have been more there for him and more supportive, and offering help."

 

I actually lost my uncle to suicide... he was a fireman and left a wife and two kids behind.     Although I didn't see him very often, he was cool and I really liked him.

 

When I was told about it, I didn't really feel anything.   The word "goodbye" entered my mind, and that was about it. 

 

Nobody knows why he took his own life, but I think I know.  

 

To some people life isn't a gift, it's a curse.

[Mike D]

SO I guess my answer is maybe in certain cases it's ok. but what does ok really mean in relation to everything else?

 

I think what I meant by asking if suicide is ok or not, is that I started seeing a psychologist about six months ago.

 

In one of my sessions he told me that if he ever thought I was an immediate suicide risk, he would call 911 and attempt to have me put on a 5150 hold and detained against my will for 72 hours.

 

This really put me off, because if I don't want to continue living, what right does someone else have to keep me from doing it?

[miamia]

Well, burnedout, If you believe it is always murder to help someone commit suicide, there are some things to consider.There ARE cases where the suicidal individual in question has no ability to make the choice autonomously. That's mostly where assisted suicide even comes up. My brother in law is a nurse that works with the elderly, and he knows of some that are being kept alive,with a feeding tube at the behest of their family, against their wishes, because their consent no longer belongs to them. They are too weak to do anything about it, except express their discomfort, and their desire to end it. Since they are already considered crazy,  their opinion on the matter is brushed aside. If they were left alone to their own devices, which is what they want, they would die from self starvation. Feeding tubes are used to prevent this from happening.This is considered acceptable because they are crazy, and it's no longer considered their decision. Some would consider not forcing a CRAZY person to eat, helping them die. I say at that point, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Other elderly persons who are still quite cognitive wish to end it before this even becomes an issue, but are too weak to do it themselves.They don't want to go through the discomfort of self starvation, and don't wish to die a long, slow, undignified death, where their rights are stripped away, and it's no longer up to them. If these still cognitive people DO decide to refuse food in an effort to end it, surprise surprise, not their choice anymore, because they must be crazy if they are starving themselves. Is forcing someone to live when they want to die torturing them? Obviously this is not the way it ALWAYS goes, but these intricacies are really the question here I think. My BIL is a Christian, but after seeing this happen up close on a regular basis even he believes it should be the choice of the individual. 2 pills,(I guess is the proposed method)  and they get to say goodbye on their own terms, without the stress and pain, without their family either having to make those decisions, or forcing an unwilling recipient to accept them.They get to be remembered as a whole person. For them to have this option, someone has to manufacture it. 

 

so whether or not suicide is sometimes the most comfortable option for a self aware individual who is in pain and going nowhere, it is generally viewed in our society as being pathological 100% of the time. Does this stem from old religious programming in our culture? Is it always pathological? 

 

I don't think it is. However, then you have to consider, what does the existence, or unavailability of such options impact. It is indeed a double edged sword. The person that makes this option possible is also responsible for whatever terrible things stem from it, as is the person that makes it impossible. It's all so complex!

 

 

 

 

 

[miamia]

Mike D, this is the gist of what I have gathered, according to my stepmom, and several other professionals. If you call, you more than likely are experiencing the compulsive type of urge to commit suicide, which is why you are calling. part of you knows that there is hope, and that you really don't want to do it, that it's just a glitch.  If you have come to the solid unshakable conclusion that you want to commit suicide, due to personal reasons,  you are probably not going to be calling anybody. These hotlines are to help people that don't actually want to die. because those are the only people they can help. They aren't to take away peoples rights or something. I'm not trying to say that there isn't hope for those who do it because they are horribly miserable, and don't have these obsessive compulsions, but the best thing you can do in that situation is be a good friend, and help them enjoy their life, not run it.

[miamia]

oh sorry i read that wrong. If HE ever thought you were an immediate risk

[miamia]

Idk how I would feel about that. ar you required to go?

[miamia]

Ok burnedout It seems I'm on the same page as you then. Just wanted clarification

[Daffodil]

This is a tough one. I was pseudo-suicidal as a teenager. I never made plans, but I fantasized about it a lot. I don't have any statistics to support this idea, but I believe a very large percentage of adolescents struggle with this. It's such a difficult time of development with all the changes the body and mind are going through with hormones and all and the hyper-emphasis on "fitting in", I really think it's amazing how any of us get through that period intact! I would fight tooth and nail to keep any young person from killing themselves, hoping that once they get past that difficult period and achieve some maturity they can see things differently.

 

I came out of it and started adulthood thinking everything was fine with me. However, a series of "life issues" - some negative, some just typical struggles - came together and took me down. It became clear that I had likely always had at least a low-level depression and that it just took the right circumstances to make it surface (not to mention there is also a family history of it, so probably a genetic component as well). There have been times the psychic pain (it really is a physical pain that you feel, though hard to explain to someone who has never experienced it) was so intense I couldn't see any way it could ever get better. It was only my children that kept me from ending it. I share this because with the right medication (took a while to get it right) my depression got much much better, I have a great life with my loved ones and I'm so thankful I got help and didn't end it.

 

I voted the second one because apart from terminal illness or chronic pain that cannot be relieved, there is a chance that medication can help and should be tried. The person may think they have a right to choose how their life ends, but with mental illness, the mind is "sick" and therefore can't be entirely trusted to be working right. If, on the other hand, every possible medication has been tried and there is no relief, then it falls under the chronic pain category and should be allowed.

[Mike D]

Idk how I would feel about that. ar you required to go?

 

I am not required to go to a psychologist.  I started going on my own because I wanted to know what was wrong with me.  But part of that involved talking about suicide and I wanted to be honest about it, not play games.  So I wanted to know how I talk about it without him taking some sort of action against me.

[miamia]

 I think it's kind of counter intuitive that he would tell you at all, I mean at the risk of you being less honest with him. Although if you were there specifically because you have suicidal thoughts and you WANT help I mean he's kind of obligated to help if that's what they are there for. They are always required to report if they believe someone is an immediate danger to themselves or others though. If you just talk about it I don't think that he will make a call. From what I understand  if you say something very immediate, like, "I feel like everything is hopeless, whats the point? I mean why am I even here today?" or hint that you don't know what you may do when you leave the session, this is a hint to the therapist that you are actively feeling this way, and they might call. However if you are candidly discussing things like, "I have had a lot of suicidal thoughts lately, I have been feeling really down, reasons I feel thin way, etc" or your own opinions regarding the ethics of suicide, where you are obviously not in the middle of the depths of absolute despair, they probably wont call. They have to weigh the risk. If they call when it isn't necessary, they may break the trust you have with them and undo a lot of progress you have achieved, and if they don't call when it is necessary, they fail someone who was asking for their help. SO basically they have to use their discretion, and all therapists are different. If you don't trust him, I would find another therapist. You should be able to openly discuss this kind of thing with them. Out of curiosity what do you think is wrong with you?

[VacuumFlux]

Yes, I do think that suicide is morally ok. I also think that most of the time it's a really stupid thing to do.

 

I'm very much on individual rights on this one. Even after a close friend of mine killed himself for what I consider a bad reason. I wish he hadn't done it, I'm kinda pissed at him for... for not trusting in the love of his friends and family enough, and feel guilty for never having had the right words to help him when he expressed frustration with the aspect of his life that he claimed as the reason on the note. It was a few years ago and it still hurts.

 

But... I wouldn't wish for anyone to live through the pain of wanting to die. I've been there. I had some plans, but they were ridiculous, and some part of me wanted to live enough that I avoided making a practical plan. (Back before I knew someone who had a missing person in their family, I thought it would be easier on everyone if I just disappeared. So I was trying to work corpse disposal into it.) Because eventually things would change, and I might still be miserable but I'd stop wanting to die. If that chemical change wasn't guaranteed to happen, if I was going to be stuck in the darkness forever? Hell yes, I would have ended things to make it stop. And having been in that much pain myself, I say it's just as selfish for the loved ones to demand the suffering person continue to live to make them feel better. To me, that's just as evil as forcing old people to live off a machine in misery when they'd rather it all just end.

 

If someone I knew told me they were contemplating suicide, I'd help them get counseling, connect them with resources to get meds, therapy, whatever they need to get better. I'd encourage them NOT to go through with it, tell them that it's an illness that can be treated. But... if this is a repeated thing, and they've had treatment for years and it's not helping? I'd tell them I'd much rather they live, that I will help them as much as I am able to get to a point where life is worth living... but if in the end they decide it's not worth it, I'll do my best to respect that decision. With my friend, part of why I felt so angry with him afterwards is that he never saw a shrink, never told his friends or family that it was that bad. We found out after that he'd talked a priest about it. But he never tried to get real help.

[Jedah]

http://www.people.com/article/brittany-maynard-died-terminal-brain-cancer

 

Suicide sucks, but I can't blame this woman for killing herself. DWD should be legal everywhere.

[miamia]

how do I give positive reputation points or can I not do that

[Ravenstar]

It's a hard subject. My husband committed suicide when my daughter was very, very young. No explanation - though he had attempted it before, years before he met me, and he had both mental health and addiction problems which he was fighting... I think he just got tired of fighting - and the stress of a new family just made it harder.. but who knows.. he left no note or explanation.. that, was selfish. He also left me with all the financial mess, as we were fixing up a house, on mostly credit.  ugh

 

It was the single hardest and most painful thing I ever experienced (and I've had some rough patches, including a stillborn at 28 weeks), and that deep grief (and self-blame) lasted a long, long time - it was over a year before I could even function properly. And the anger... starting a home and family with me and then just checking out?... and now my daughter has to go through life without having the sense that her father loved her... which I know he did, but she's 16 now - and she's angry too. I don't blame her... though after all this time I've come to accept that somehow he just could not cope with reality - that he was in pain.

 

It's the people left behind who get that pain to carry.. sorry, but that's the truth.

 

On the other hand I'm very supportive of personal autonomy, and historically suicide has been an accepted form of saving face, avoiding a worse fate (ie: prisoner of war or something, torture) retaining family honour, lightening the burden for the tribe...etc... ideologically, I believe that ultimately it is every adult person of sound mind's right to do what they wish with their life and body, as long as those rights don't infringe on others (taking the family with you isn't an option). The question, ultimately, is - what obligations do we have to our loved ones?

 

I think every kind of treatment must be wholeheartedly attempted before one makes such a final decision. I don't understand it myself.. even at my worst I still loved life... even in my darkest depression a part of me wanted to see what would come next.. I'm innately curious though.

 

I fully support euthanasia for the terminally ill, with medical assistance if necessary. I respect the rights of those who do not wish to be resuscitated or to live on machines. I could not hold someone to me out of selfishness (except children and teenagers who are clinically insane temporarily anyway.. they have to wait until their brain is matured at 25)  Hard call when it's someone close though.

 

I think that there can be no catchall in this.. it must be on a case by case basis. We don't know what other experience , or what their tolerance levels are. Life changes all the time though, and what may be intolerable at one part, may not be later on... making a decision like that in haste seems very premature - and I think that is one of the dangers of accepting it without some sort of boundaries.

 

As far as professionals go.. they HAVE to report any suspicion of imminent harm to their clients or others.. it's just a legal requirement of law... and not a personal betrayal. They have no choice.

[Mike D]

  If you don't trust him, I would find another therapist. You should be able to openly discuss this kind of thing with them. Out of curiosity what do you think is wrong with you?

 

I actually do trust him, although I pretty much told him that he wasn't going to call anyone if he ever wanted to see me again.   So I think we have an understanding.

 

As for what's wrong with me..... I guess the short of it is that i've always felt like sort of an outsider emotionally.  Like I generally can't relate to anyone on an emotional level, because I don't really experience many emotions.  And when I do bond with someone emotionally which is pretty rare, it's always negative emotions because those are the few that I do feel.  I think because of that I don't really put a high value the same things in life that most people do like relationships, stability, spirituality/religion, community, etc.  My nature is the complete opposite - pretty much my entire life has been spent drifting around and alone.  My therapist thinks I have some kind of attachment personality disorder from not bonding with my parents as a baby/child, and I guess that inhibits normal emotional development.  I guess the one positive side to not experiencing much in the way of emotions is that I am one of the most rational people I know, lol.   Whatever -  it is what it is.  

[miamia]

I'm glad you reached an understanding with him. I hope you discover what you are looking for!

[yunea]

How I view this, it's not a black and white "yes" or "no" question. I think a DNR request done in a lucid state is perfectly acceptable and should in fact be done more, my awesome grandma had that and I'd have hated to see her tube fed when she always was so stubborn and strong.

 

I wanted to kill myself once when I thought I'd destroyed my life trying to do God's will and whatever, and for a moment I was sure I had no hope of building it back (the turning point in my faith). I was wrong, so I'm glad I was stopped.

 

Euthanasia is tricky, I think it takes the lucidity of the patient and possibly that they can decide for themselves when to go. Like in the tv show House, the doc tells a very old, lonely, terminal patient how to up his meds to a lethal stage.

 

What gets really tricky is parents of young children wanting to die. My friend, a mom of two, attempted suicide and ended up with severe brain damage. She's not awfully old either. I could better understand her wanting to go if she was lonely, but I feel very sorry for the kids and can't imagine how much this screws them up. Then again seeing their mom suffer screws them up too.