Taking The Plunge

[noob]

Hello. I’ve been slowly easing into the site for a few weeks and finally decided it was time to take the plunge. First, the name – I wanted something short and somewhat detached from me and who I am. Since I have only recently allowed myself to consciously admit that I do not believe the bible, I thought “noob” was appropriate. I realize that “newbie” may have been more appropriate since I don’t (or at least I hope I don’t) really fit the definition of a noob as it is defined in the Urban Dictionary. At least I’ll try not to be an overly-confident, boorish, ignorant bastard! I just liked the way it looked.

 

Unlike a lot of people who give their testimony, I do not feel angry and I do not feel as if I have been harmed by religion and those who practice it. I do feel somewhat anxious and more than a little scared about what it will mean to me, to my family, and to my religious friends when I finally get brave enough to admit that I don’t believe.

 

Religion has been an on/off thing throughout my life. As a child, my mother (never my father) would take us to church sporadically. In my early years she took us to a Baptist church where I would sit on the front pew and become spell bound by the preacher. At age eight I felt compelled to answer the invitation and I was baptized. After moving to a different state, we were introduced to the Church of Christ and at age twelve I believed what I was being taught. And, since only members of the Church of Christ were going to be saved, according to those teachings, I went forward to be baptized again. Even at that young age, I found myself very, very sorrowful because there were so many nice people that did not know what I knew, and I believed they were doomed to an eternity in hell. I attended church pretty regularly from that time until I got married at age 19 ½.

 

I married a man who had been raised Catholic and we could not agree on anything having to do with religion and not wanting to make waves, I simply did not attend church for almost the entire 19 ½ years we were married. During that time, my nephew came to live with me and during his teen years he read a lot and studied world religions. We had a lot of discussions and I found myself asking questions and beginning to let myself doubt some of what I had been taught.

 

Just before my marriage ended, I went back to the Church of Christ. After hearing that in order to be saved you needed to understand the gospel when you were baptized, I thought maybe I had not fully understood when I was 8, and then 12; so once again, at age 40 I heeded the call and was baptized. I’m either incredibly dense or extremely persistent! Or… possibly both.

 

Since that time I have been a regular church-goer, sometimes attending three times a week. And, there were times in my life when I really, really believed and felt comforted by the teachings of the bible. But, more often than not, I have not let myself study too much or think too deeply about what I was being taught. Maybe I was just being lazy, but I think I did not want to learn too much. Emotionally, I so wanted to believe, but intellectually, I kept thinking, “Huh?” But oddly enough, I had never let myself clearly and consciously ask if there was any possibility that the bible was not true.

 

Earlier this year, an atheist friend of mine sent me a link to the Zeitgeist movie. My reactions to it were varied. First I felt like I had been punched in the stomach. For the first time, my filter failed and my conscious mind recognized that there was a very real possibility that I had been delusional for most of my life. I was also pretty pissed off at my friend for sending me the link. I wanted to believe. My religion was familiar and comfortable and I wanted it to be true.

 

Since that time, my filter has become less and less powerful and I find myself wondering how I could possibly want to believe in a god that would create me and then subject me to an eternity of suffering if I didn’t cross all of the t’s and dot all of the i’s in precisely the right way.

 

The more I read, the less I want to believe. But as my belief fades I find myself torn by my desire to go back to my comfortable, familiar, dependent existence versus my excitement over the realization that my life and my future is created entirely by me and is not determined by my relationship with a supernatural being.

 

Even though I have not introduced myself until now, I have already benefited greatly from the site, and I look forward to taking on a more interactive role. I’ll try not to be so wordy in future posts!

[florduh]

Welcome, noob!

 

That "Zeitgeist" movie wasn't entirely factual (IIRC) but it can start the inner dialog. There are so many resources available to those of us who value free thought, I'm sure you will have plenty to chew on if you delve any deeper. This site (as you've already observed) can be helpful with both support and factual information. Don't forget to thank that friend for showing you the value of critical thinking.

 

I'm glad you're choosing rationality. It will serve you well.

[pitchu]

Welcome to the forums, noob, and congratulations on dropping your "filter" -- even though it can be disconcerting at first.

 

And don't be the least concerned about being wordy. Sometimes I think we should have a "Wordier Than Thou" contest among the members here!

[MathGeek]

Beautiful anti-testimony. I hope this site serves you well. It has done wonders for me.

[Hineni]

Welcome, noob!

 

I enjoyed reading your testimony. Don't worry bout being "wordy". It's hard to get some things out in just a couple of sentences or paragraphs.

 

Hineni

[trekkie]

But as my belief fades I find myself torn by my desire to go back to my comfortable, familiar, dependent existence versus my excitement over the realization that my life and my future is created entirely by me and is not determined by my relationship with a supernatural being.

 

Thanks for sharing your testimony, Noob. I think you've nailed the struggle that many of us face in our deconversion process -- the "safety" (even if it is imagined) of the nest versus learning to fly on our own. The overall aim of Christianity, it seems to me, is to keep us "childlike", children dependant upon authority figures to tell us what to believe, how to live, and how to stay protected from life's harm (and, of course, "eternal" harm).

 

But many of us desire to grow up. This is, I believe, as it should be. There is something inside us that wants to be independant, to chart our own course, to risk the thrills (and dangers) of real life, to learn how to fly. Yes, it is scary. But the only things that don't grow are dead. And that is no way to live.

 

It's hard to grow up. We do it in fits and starts. Some days it is two steps forward and three steps back. I myself sometimes long for the "childlike faith" in God and Jesus that I once had, for the times that I either had no questions or all the answers I was given seemed to work. But the questions kept haunting me. And the closer I looked at the answers, the less sense they made. I've discovered, for me, I can never "go home" again. So home has to be where my heart is, and it is no longer in the Christian faith.

 

Keep learning to fly.

 

bill

[noob]

Thank you for the welcome. I really appreciate the warm, thoughtful responses. I started writing this follow-up post this morning before I read Trekkie’s response. Oddly enough, after reading it, I feel as if he answered a question that I had not yet asked. Now that I have the introduction out of the way, I will get to the real dilemma.

 

I guess you can tell from my testimony that I am being pretty wishy washy about this change in my thinking. What I didn’t share is that I am still going to church every Sunday, primarily because my mother, my sisters, and several good friends expect me to be there. This is extremely uncomfortable, and I keep fighting the urge to turn to my sister during the service and blurt out that I am having difficulty believing what is being said. However, I do think that I would be able to be honest and stop attending if it were not for… my mother.

 

Whoa. She is not going to take this lying down. And she is a master manipulator. In fact, I’m wondering if she has the ability to read my mind, because she has already started pressuring me. She has always told me that my father’s salvation lies in my hands. (After all, I am his favorite daughter!) Just yesterday, after church, she said to me, “I need to talk to you about your dad.” Holy shit! How can I be the one to convince him that he needs to turn to Jesus and be baptized?

 

Obviously, this is going to force my hand sooner rather than later. But I’m not sure that I am strong enough to withstand the pressure. I’ve always been a major people pleaser and trust me, this is not going to please mom! It seems absurd to worry so much about parental approval at my age, but I’ve always been the “good girl”, the favorite child, the one who did not cause any problems or induce anxiety.

 

I don’t know what I was hoping. I guess I thought time would solve the problem. Some day, mom won’t be around and I’ll be free to express my beliefs and live my life without fear of hurting her. And of course, there is still the issue of my dad and his “salvation.” Hmmm… what if????

 

Talk about anxiety inducing! This is entirely too painful to deal with. Prior to reading all of the responses to my earlier post, I was thinking perhaps I should just reinforce my filter, step back into my comfortable role (which would of course entail hoping that someday I would be able to reach my atheist friends and bring them around to my way of thinking!), and keep doing what I have always done. Since you don’t know me, you don’t realize that I am laughing at myself. Emotionally and childishly I simply want to return to my delusion. Intellectually, it can’t be.

 

I realize I have to work through this on my own. But I’m positive that many of you have been down this path already. So, in the spirit of the site, I am looking for support and suggestions. (And, I guess we can forget the promise to not be so wordy!!!)

[pitchu]

Sounds to me like you're simmering in a stew of many issues, noob. My recommendation, even though these things are obviously all linked together to some degree, is to separate them out from one another and figure out how to deal with each item individually.

 

Issues: 1) Continuing to attend church. 2) Telling or not telling this or that person about your current outlook. 3) Accepting or rejecting that it's your responsibility to be in charge of your father's "salvation." 4) Dealing with Mom's manipulations. 5) Deciding what it means to be The Good Girl, then deciding whether or not that description truly represents you and whether you want it to continue or you want to challenge it.

 

I, too, suffer from stew-simmering, and too rarely take my own advice, given here. I guess that's because it just "feels like home" to be circling in that swirl of issues, and it feels alien to do otherwise.

[noob]

Thank you, pitchu! You made me laugh. You may simmer in your own stew, but you are pretty good at picking the veggies out of someone else's stew! You've given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate it. It did not seem so messy when I typed it. It's amazing what we look like through someone else's eyes.

[trekkie]

(And, I guess we can forget the promise to not be so wordy!!!)

 

Don't worry about the "wordiness," Noob. Some of us have very few others to talk about concerning this life-change and it is helpful, even therapeutic, to express ourselves here. In most of my own posts, I'm usually preaching to myself. I find it helpful to try to get what is in my heart down on paper (or on the internet like this). It helps me process.

 

I'm sure you know, having read here for a while, that the varieties of opinion are one of the strengths of this forum. Unlike Christianity which has a "formula" for conversion (Roman's Road, 4 Spiritual Laws, Sinner's Prayer, church membership), deconverting doesn't have a series of steps to follow. There are some writings here about phases that many people go through in deconversion, but we appreciate the freedom that we have in not having someone dictate to us exactly how it must be done. The individual and his/her journey is respected.

 

For me, in a nutshell, I am still married to a believing wife. I "came out" with her about losing my faith about 2 years ago. She loves me and doesn't force me to go to church with her. I do occasionally go but I feel like such a fifth wheel that it isn't even funny. I find myself sitting there thinking, "Do these people really believe this stuff?" Then I remember that I did. And, at the same time, I had alot of nagging doubts/questions. And I wonder how many people are there in church just because they are expected to be or because they are coerced/manipulated by others?

 

Perhaps like you, I have retreated back into the Christian paradigm occasionally. When you are raised in that culture, it is not just about beliefs. It's about family, friendships, social context, values, and an entire way of looking at life. But since about 8 years ago, I've had this "shard of reality" sticking in my brain that simply won't let me return to Christianity with my head or my heart. For me, it is kinda like believing in Santa Claus -- it's a wonderful part of my past, there is sentimentality there, it can conjure up childlike emotions, but there is no reality.

 

So, in my opinion, Christians believe in a heavenly Santa Claus. Many of them live their entire lives in this belief and they are genuinely good people for it. After all, if Santa doesn't come through for them, it is simply attributed to them not being good little boys and girls.

 

Of course, how you "come out" with your family is a very personal choice. Only you know you and them. There is no formula for making it easy. For me and my wife, we actually cried through it. My faith simply "died" and I had to (and still continue to) let it go. But I was careful NOT to judge my wife or her journey, despite whatever I may think about Christianity. She is a good and loving woman, and very understanding. It is easy for the believer to feel personally attacked when their beliefs are criticized. After all, they are "believers."

 

One thing that helped me, though I don't know if it will help you, is to ask what the purpose of faith or Christianity is. Some Christians believe that the purpose for faith and Christianity is to get a seat in heaven (or to escape hell). If this is the ONLY view, it is hard to build a bridge with such Christians. After all, they think you are choosing hell. But if they believe that the ultimate goal of faith is to become better people -- to become more caring, loving, gracious, more humane -- then they may be open to the notion that you are endeavoring to find YOUR OWN PATH to that end. Many humanists are more humane than Christians. So it is possible that you can build a bridge with your family through a common goal IF they believe that the goal of faith is to develop what they would call "Christian character." It can be done without being a Christian.

 

My thoughts are with you, Noob. You are most certainly NOT alone with struggling with how to share your desire to fly with a family who feels it best to keep you in the nest. There are many posts here on this subject. It is great that you are struggling with it, although it is not easy, for it shows how much you love your family and don't want to hurt them. But good parents should give their children wings, not continually clip their feathers. Hopefully, your parents will hear your heart.

 

bill

[R. S. Martin]

Yeah, I'm glad you forgot your promise about not being wordy. I like to know the details that flesh out the story. It makes for better understanding, esp. if they are presented in a well-organized way like you do. I don't know if you have read Looking4Answer's thread My Story: Baptist Pastor, Missionary, and Now... Possibly it will help, but I don't know.

 

It's a very long thread but a common story so I'll summarize. Like quite a number of other former pastors on here he came to realize that he was preaching a lie and he couldn't do it anymore so he deconverted and refused to continue preaching or attend church. What is somewhat unusual is what he says in Posts 284 and 289. It seems his wife accused him of something that got him arrested and, according to what the senior pastor told him after he was in jail, it seems the charges were brought forward only because he deconverted.

 

I could tell a similar story of my own life except no actual jail or law of the land were involved. However, ecclesiastical law (church rule) was imposed in a most inhumane manner, both formal and informal, so that I am seeking to find protection from the abuse of my family. Like you, I'm a middle-aged adult and should not have to submit to this kind of family pressure but some people respect or acknowledge no boundaries.

 

For me, the peace of a clear conscience, of being true to my self, is worth all the pain and trial and more. I would never go back. I confess that it is a relief that my mother passed away. She had power over me emotionally like no other human can ever have. She was the emotional manipulator supreme. Sounds like your mother is the same.

 

In case you're interested, there are a number of members here at exC who have severe family issues due to their deconversion. Some are alienated from parents, some from children, some from spouse, some from siblings. The list goes on. You will have to make your own decisions for what you want for your own life. When primary human relationships are involved the decisions can be extremely difficult. I don't think anyone here will presume to tell you what to do in such a personal situation.

 

I wish you the wisdom to know what decision is right for you and the strength to carry through with it, whatever you decide.

 

~Ruby

[noob]

Thank you, Ruby. You too have given me lots to think about. Actually, a lot more than I can absorb during my lunch hour - and I do need to get back to work! I did read the Looking4Answers thread. That thread along with many of the others made me realize that even though I am struggling with this change, I am certain that I will not encounter the challenges that many others seem to face. Once I've overcome my struggle within myself, I think I'll be able to deal with my friends and family - in spite of my desire to please everyone. I look forward to giving your repsonse another thorough reading when I have more time.

[Raul]

I do not feel angry and I do not feel as if I have been harmed by religion and those who practice it

Hey,me too! First it gave me consolation and now,when I know it better it gives me a laugh.

 

"Religion - religion, at best - at BEST - is like a lift in your shoe. If you need it for a while, and it makes you walk straight and feel better - fine. But you don't need it forever, or you can become permanently disabled."

(George Carlin)

[Raul]

I’ve always been a major people pleaser and trust me, this is not going to please mom! It seems absurd to worry so much about parental approval at my age, but I’ve always been the “good girl”, the favorite child, the one who did not cause any problems or induce anxiety.

You do understand,exactly how silly this is,right? "It's not going to please mom,OMG!" What's your age again?

[noob]

Of course I understand exactly how silly it is!!! It is absolutely ridiculous. But, don’t forget, I’ve lived my entire life trying to keep the peace, not make waves, and win approval from anyone and everyone. And being this way my entire life is a long, long time. Yes, I’m too old (way too old) to be so concerned about my mother’s opinion. However, I don’t want to hurt her. This is a woman who cries – no shit – cries when I miss church for one week. Manipulative? Hell, yes!

 

As I said earlier to pitchu, it is helpful to take a look at yourself through someone else’s eyes. And, right now, I’m having a healthy laugh. But… I still have a lot of work to do before I am ready to tackle mom. I think you would have to experience it to fully understand.

[R. S. Martin]

Noob, I'm beginning to see what a negative thing it can be if one actually succeeds in pleasing one's parents. I tried so hard to please my mother but always to no avail. It was hell. Finally I learned to live for myself as opposed to living for the approval of others, or public opinion. This was long before I deconverted; it was a survival strategy. I realized that living for the approval of others or public opinion was nothing short of prideful. Yup, it was pride. Nothing else but pride. I wanted to hear people praise me. Pride was sin, right? Well, I decided that had to go.

 

The other side of that coin was that gossip is wrong. Public opinion is carried via gossip. As Paul says in Phil. 4:8 (I think is the reference), my paraphrase, "If there be any virture, any thing of good report, etc. think on these things." This told me to stop thinking about all the bad things people did, to stop talking about these things, to stop passing on such rumors and to stop taking pleasure in them. The upside of not gossiping about others was that I did not have to live up to my own judgments of others. I absolutely despise people who gossip about others and then turn around and do the same "bad deed" themselves. That had set a very high--almost impossible--standard for myself and just doing away with it removed a lot of unnecessary stress from my life.

 

Over the years I read about self-confidence, which was the concept I had stumbled on without realizing it. As I learned more about it, and became a happier person in who I was without the praise of others, I realized what a pitiful person my mother was. I felt so sad for her and went out of my way to help her learn what I had learned.

 

Putting on a martyr tone of "Am I really as weird as all that" combined with an attitude of "You can't even begin to understand what all I've been through and what all I've learned in my life of trial and trouble," she informed me that she knew all of that stuff. She would not go to a counselor, though she admitted she might have problems that could benefit from counseling. At last I concluded that I had to let her go to live her own life as she saw fit and I had to live my life as I saw fit. Neither of us agreed with how the other lived her life, and after my deconversion (which took place about half a year before she passed away) I had very little contact with the family because of their seriously abusive treatment of me.

 

The way things were handled around her death and funeral are another story. I have since then had to find substitute family for myself in order to go on living. My plan is to make it legal for end of life issues. Though I have not yet gotten around to the details I did talk to the people I want involved and they agreed. That was so helpful and a major burden was lifted.

 

I have no idea if you find any ideas in any of this but I share it in case it is helpful for someone lurking or otherwise. There IS life beyond religion--even beyond family.

[RevOxley_501]

thanks for posting this noob, good luck with your mom...and good luck with your further journey out of the crutch. Zeitgeist, even though none of the information in it was new to me, nor was it all factual---really hit me in the stomach...i dont know what made it so powerful to watch but it was like a ton of bricks...and it was HARD from there...its a very emotionally trying thing, to lose god.

 

keep your chin up

[florduh]

Ruby, I thought that was an astounding insight into the people-pleaser personality.

 

I always watch your posts just for gems like this.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks florduh. Not sure what part you found so helpful but I'm glad you liked it. I liked trekkie's post a lot. Thanks trekkie for sharing about your personal journey and insights.

[florduh]

"I realized that living for the approval of others or public opinion was nothing short of prideful. Yup, it was pride. Nothing else but pride. I wanted to hear people praise me."

 

 

That part in particular, Ruby. Maybe it's obvious to everyone else, but I had never looked at it that way.

[noob]

Again, I want to say thank you to everyone for the warmth and support. There is a lot of wisdom in your responses and a lot to digest.

 

Ruby, I had to smile when I read your last response yesterday. I always felt that my people pleasing personality was more fear based than pride based. When I looked closely at why I avoided conflict and why I put everyone’s needs above mine, I thought that I was simply afraid that if I did not do so, I would be abandoned. My experience taught me that if you made someone mad, they left you. If you asked for help or had needs, you were too much trouble and you would be abandoned. Like Florduh, I had never considered pride a factor. But… opening my mind a little bit and thinking about why I work so hard to please others, I think that pride does come into play. I certainly like to be the center of attention (!!!) and I’ve always enjoyed the recognition that comes with being a good girl, an over-achiever, a caretaker, blah, blah, blah…

 

I am a self help addict and I am constantly reading and seeking answers in an effort to fix myself. I’ve read about self-confidence, boundaries, codependency, addictions, OCD, PTSD, and on and on and on… Obviously, I felt that I was seriously lacking in some way.

 

For me the good news is that as I get older and hopefully just a little wiser, I recognize that I have value. Not because others say so, not because I am a child of any god, but just because… as a human being, I have value.

 

As far as my multitude of issues (my stew, as pitchu so colorfully put it) I’ll just have to tackle them one at a time. I’ve never been good with endings. I tend to cling to people, jobs, situations, and beliefs way, way beyond the sane and healthy ending point.

 

The good news is, in spite of my aversion to conflict and my dread of causing my friends and family any pain, I sincerely believe that I will be pressured, but not rejected. I would be extremely surprised if my family ceased to love me based on my disbelief of the bible.

 

I meant to get back to this last night, but once I got a chance to log in I got wrapped up in another thread and stayed up way too late! Thanks again.

[florduh]

Nice new avatar, noob!

[noob]

Nice new avatar, noob!

 

Thank you, florduh!

 

I was just thinking about coming back to this thread and admitting that I should have called it, "Testing the water with my little toe" instead of "Taking the Plunge." After reading many of these posts, I've realized that I am really avoiding "coming out" so I decided to test the waters last weekend. While having a pedicure, I decided to tell my nail tech that I didn't believe anymore. She was raised in the church that I attended so we have had many conversations in the past about religion. So... she's using a dremel tool with a sandpaper attachment to sand down my feet, I tell her I no longer believe, and she stares at me with her mouth open and keeps sanding my toe until it bleeds! After we addressed my bleeding toe, she had a million questions and I did my best to explain that I was actually thinking now and not just accepting something that I had been raised to believe. She told me that I should not be listening to anyone who does not believe in god since eventually everyone will come around. It was obvious to me she could not really hear what I was saying. She was just watching my lips move. Anyway, it was a tiny start and in time I will become more comfortable with this strange new territory.

 

I've actually had two other interesting conversations that I will share later. Neither of those resulted in wounds!

[Snafutopia]

{{Noob}} oh wow, my heart just aches for you and for everyone else who has gone through this. And whoever said your issues with your Mom are silly just doesn't have a clue what it's like. My birth mother is and always has been a master manipulator too -- the guilt, omg the guilt, it is a weapon, and so many times it's come close to killing whatever spirit I might possess. Nobody can understand unless they have that same kind of relationship with their own mother.

 

We all have to take our own time and find our own way through this mess of life. Be patient with yourself. And be careful. It's crippling, the fear of rejection and abandonment. It haunts some of us all our lives, from earliest childhood, and even when reality proves our fear unfounded, it never really totally goes away.

 

I really love how Pitchu showed how there are several distinct issues, and recommended dealing with each issue individually! That's something that never occurred to me and I think it would help a lot to learn how to put that into practice.

 

{{hugs to you all}}

[Snafutopia]

By the way -- I'll soon be 54 years old, my birth mother is almost 90 years old, and still, on the extremely rare occasions I visit her, it's like stepping back in time, not just emotionally but physically also -- it's weird and terrifying and I have no idea how to not feel what I feel.