Prochristian--A Challenge, Prove Christianity

[prochristian]

I was shown, how almost every detail I can recall from christian, in one or more amount is found in tons of other religions and histories.

is that a reason to leave it? that is called verification.

try writing something like

http://www.investigate islam.com/x_muslim.htm

that would console the ex-christians

[prochristian]

The two props that got kicked out from under my traditional, "orthodox" Christian faith, which caused it to collapse:

 

1. After struggling with my sexuality for years and feeling so incredibly guilty and shameful about it, I realized that practically all Christians are as "hypocritical" as I was--which led me to the realization that, in a sense, none of us is hypocritical. Human sexuality is the way it is, and you can't deny it, even if you believe something else to be true. A lot of Christians are still suffering because they genuinely believe human nature is, or at least can be, something other than what it is. I feel for them. Others are true hypocrites, trying to repress their "flocks," while at the same time secretly living a natural sex life--and even using modern methods to escape the consequences of their sex lives. (I'm thinking especially of anti-choice Christians who have abortions themselves when they don't want to bring a child to term.) When I realized that what traditional Christianity teaches about sex is wrong and that so much hypocrisy exists in the church, I accepted myself and my sexuality. Then I got to work on crafting a spiritual framework which accepts real human sexuality.

 

2. After point #1 above, I was just a really liberal Christian. Then I heard about Higher Criticism and other modern approaches to the Bible. I suddenly realized I had been reading the Bible through a pair of spectacles which I didn't realize were even perched on my nose. When those "spectacles" fell off, I couldn't take the Bible seriously any more.

 

you wrote 'feeling so incredibly guilty and shameful about it,' yet as a christian you were taught that 'the debt is paid' it even says so in the how to save a budhist by emphasizing no more guilt.

you wrote 'trying to repress their "flocks," while at the same time secretly living a natural sex life'

if you mean a catholic priest catholics encourage marraige as a required sacrament which includes sex.

if you mean noncathilic then the leader marries not repress.

you wrote 'I heard about Higher Criticism' yet this is so different than

the testimony of http://www.investigate islam.com/x_muslim.htm

maybe writing something like that will console the ex-christians but this is so weak

[Guest Valk0010]

For those that don't know, prochristian has made his debut in this thread

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/38295-i-am-no-longer-a-believer-because/page__pid__583463__st__40#entry583463

 

 

He seems to think forum rules, are some sort of arguement, so I figured I would point him in the direction where arguing is allowed, by christians.

 

Welp

 

Prove Christianity in anyway you like.

[Guest Net Eng]

I was shown, how almost every detail I can recall from christian, in one or more amount is found in tons of other religions and histories.

is that a reason to leave it? that is called verification.

try writing something like

http://www.investigate islam.com/x_muslim.htm

that would console the ex-christians

 

Here's the above link in usable format (in English): www.investigateislam.com

 

Quite frankly I find this site hilarious. This is like a pro-Thor site trying to disprove that Zeus exists.

[florduh]

I guess Christianity is sort of a step up from the abyss of Islam. At least currently, Christians aren't as murderous and repressive.

 

Still, choosing between horse shit and dog shit doesn't make for much of a menu.

[par4dcourse]

From the site:

 

For sure we don't hate Muslims. As Christians the Lord Christ has ordered us to love everyone even the ones who hate us. In the same time we have a duty to fight Satan and expose his lies and Islam is one of the biggest ,fattest lies Satan ever made.

 

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle

The site is really funny. Like a bunch of puffed-up 3rd graders about to make war on the "enemy."

[buffettphan]

I'm showing my age here, but every time I hear one of those "my god's better than your god" statements, I can't help but think of the old Ken-L Ration jingle:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSZ9zma-wYI

 

[Mriana]

I was shown, how almost every detail I can recall from christian, in one or more amount is found in tons of other religions and histories.

is that a reason to leave it? that is called verification.

 

Yes it is a reason to leave. I just goes to show that Xianity is rewritten myth. Now why a person would buy into mythology, I have no clue. Also, how can one stay if they can't believe it anymore?

[prochristian]

The two props that got kicked out from under my traditional, "orthodox" Christian faith, which caused it to collapse:

 

1. After struggling with my sexuality for years and feeling so incredibly guilty and shameful about it, I realized that practically all Christians are as "hypocritical" as I was--which led me to the realization that, in a sense, none of us is hypocritical. Human sexuality is the way it is, and you can't deny it, even if you believe something else to be true. A lot of Christians are still suffering because they genuinely believe human nature is, or at least can be, something other than what it is. I feel for them. Others are true hypocrites, trying to repress their "flocks," while at the same time secretly living a natural sex life--and even using modern methods to escape the consequences of their sex lives. (I'm thinking especially of anti-choice Christians who have abortions themselves when they don't want to bring a child to term.) When I realized that what traditional Christianity teaches about sex is wrong and that so much hypocrisy exists in the church, I accepted myself and my sexuality. Then I got to work on crafting a spiritual framework which accepts real human sexuality.

 

2. After point #1 above, I was just a really liberal Christian. Then I heard about Higher Criticism and other modern approaches to the Bible. I suddenly realized I had been reading the Bible through a pair of spectacles which I didn't realize were even perched on my nose. When those "spectacles" fell off, I couldn't take the Bible seriously any more.

 

you wrote 'feeling so incredibly guilty and shameful about it,' yet as a christian you were taught that 'the debt is paid' it even says so in the how to save a budhist by emphasizing no more guilt.

you wrote 'trying to repress their "flocks," while at the same time secretly living a natural sex life'

if you mean a catholic priest catholics encourage marraige as a required sacrament which includes sex.

if you mean noncathilic then the leader marries not repress.

you wrote 'I heard about Higher Criticism' yet this is so different than

the testimony of http://www.investigate islam.com/x_muslim.htm

maybe writing something like that will console the ex-christians but this is so weak

 

reply

the profile pic I recieved is cute!

[prochristian]

For those that don't know, prochristian has made his debut in this thread

http://www.ex-christ..._40#entry583463

 

 

He seems to think forum rules, are some sort of arguement, so I figured I would point him in the direction where arguing is allowed, by christians.

 

Welp

 

Prove Christianity in anyway you like.

reply to 'Prove Christianity in anyway you like.'

 

a. I am not here to prove.

 

b. I am here to see if those who left christianity had strong arguments... or not

and if not to ask them to add stronger arguments. but it seems my posts were too complex.

 

for exmple I bet noone here even heard of the bombardier beetle yet?

could that have evolved in phases? the athiest response is 'it MUST have!'

so again that is not the point

 

c. the point is to see why people leave and I see they leave because they 'think the bible is like cinderella' that is so lame

 

d. IF the purpose of this forum is to be supportive of x-x, then someone should offer strong arguments.

but saying 'jesus did not exist because the text of josephus MUST have been corrupted by additions' is simply weak.

[prochristian]

I was shown, how almost every detail I can recall from christian, in one or more amount is found in tons of other religions and histories.

is that a reason to leave it? that is called verification.

 

Yes it is a reason to leave. I just goes to show that Xianity is rewritten myth. Now why a person would buy into mythology, I have no clue. Also, how can one stay if they can't believe it anymore?

Dear 'happy heretical infidel'

would you leave other verified claims like which ships carried the settlers to the americas?

after all you did not see that ship?

if you were a judge and the witnesses had 'different' versions would you say both must be false witnesses and ignore the entire testimony as if there were no witnesses at all?

[Ouroboros]

for exmple I bet noone here even heard of the bombardier beetle yet?

could that have evolved in phases? the athiest response is 'it MUST have!'

so again that is not the point

The evolutionary aspects of the bombardier beetle: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html

 

Challenge back to you: explain the deformed gene that causes C-deficiency in humans and chimpanzees within the context of design theory. (Background: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#mol_vestiges)

 

d. IF the purpose of this forum is to be supportive of x-x, then someone should offer strong arguments.

??? Why?

 

Support is what support is, not reasons to why someone need the support, or why they left.

 

Does a hospital have to have the culprit of the arson case to treat a burn victim?

 

but saying 'jesus did not exist because the text of josephus MUST have been corrupted by additions' is simply weak.

Agree.

 

How about that God never speaks, never shows up, or that the teachings of the Bible doesn't work?

 

And why is one God more plausible than another God? What are your belief about Allah or Zeus? Why don't they exist?

[Shyone]

For those that don't know, prochristian has made his debut in this thread

http://www.ex-christ..._40#entry583463

 

 

He seems to think forum rules, are some sort of arguement, so I figured I would point him in the direction where arguing is allowed, by christians.

 

Welp

 

Prove Christianity in anyway you like.

reply to 'Prove Christianity in anyway you like.'

 

a. I am not here to prove.

 

b. I am here to see if those who left christianity had strong arguments... or not

and if not to ask them to add stronger arguments. but it seems my posts were too complex.

 

for exmple I bet noone here even heard of the bombardier beetle yet?

could that have evolved in phases? the athiest response is 'it MUST have!'

so again that is not the point

 

c. the point is to see why people leave and I see they leave because they 'think the bible is like cinderella' that is so lame

 

d. IF the purpose of this forum is to be supportive of x-x, then someone should offer strong arguments.

but saying 'jesus did not exist because the text of josephus MUST have been corrupted by additions' is simply weak.

First, the beetle.

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html

 

And here's a shorter and simplified version of the first article:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB310.html

 

Don't you get it? It's not about this beetle or that enzyme or some other feature of anatomy. All life is evolved from some earlier life after the earth was cool enough to sustain the first chemical reactions that involved self-reproducing hydrocarbons. We aren't ex-christians because of beetles or even evolution specifically (although the fact of evolution and the attempt to "cover up the fossils" by creationists is a hoot!).

 

In fact, for each it's different. Most could care less about Josephus, Tacitus or Suetonius. I find that stuff interesting, but it had nothing to do with deconversion.

 

Perhaps you should focus on the testimonial section. Read only. comment here. Tell us why our reasons are incomplete and why christianity is true.

[prochristian]

I'm showing my age here, but every time I hear one of those "my god's better than your god" statements, I can't help but think of the old Ken-L Ration jingle:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSZ9zma-wYI

 

 

I am not cynical when I say it is an amusing comparison but i am not using it to debate muslims since this site is not islam. I did notice that!

the investigate islam site is an example of strong arguments.

is there any such argument against christianity and if not is anyone going to offer one? noone here has yet supplied such an rgument!

[Mriana]

Dear 'happy heretical infidel'

would you leave other verified claims like which ships carried the settlers to the americas?

after all you did not see that ship?

if you were a judge and the witnesses had 'different' versions would you say both must be false witnesses and ignore the entire testimony as if there were no witnesses at all?

 

There is no need to leave such claims about the settlers to the Americas, because there is historical evidence for them- plenty of historical evidence. I happen to be related to the pilgrims and to the first Prescotts. All of which is far better documented in history than anything in your story book. There is NO historical evidence for what is in the Bile. The gospels are NOT eyewitness accounts either, so I don't have a clue what you are talking about concerning a judge and different accounts.

 

You may enjoy reading this: http://www.americanhumanist.org/who_we_are/about_humanism/Some_Reasons_Why_Humanists_Reject_the_Bible

[prochristian]

From the site:

 

For sure we don't hate Muslims. As Christians the Lord Christ has ordered us to love everyone even the ones who hate us. In the same time we have a duty to fight Satan and expose his lies and Islam is one of the biggest ,fattest lies Satan ever made.

 

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle

The site is really funny. Like a bunch of puffed-up 3rd graders about to make war on the "enemy."

I liked your placebo quote... because often placebos work!

 

[prochristian]

for exmple I bet noone here even heard of the bombardier beetle yet?

could that have evolved in phases? the athiest response is 'it MUST have!'

so again that is not the point

The evolutionary aspects of the bombardier beetle: http://www.talkorigi...bombardier.html

 

Challenge back to you: explain the deformed gene that causes C-deficiency in humans and chimpanzees within the context of design theory. (Background: http://www.talkorigi...l#mol_vestiges)

 

d. IF the purpose of this forum is to be supportive of x-x, then someone should offer strong arguments.

??? Why?

 

Support is what support is, not reasons to why someone need the support, or why they left.

 

Does a hospital have to have the culprit of the arson case to treat a burn victim?

 

but saying 'jesus did not exist because the text of josephus MUST have been corrupted by additions' is simply weak.

Agree.

 

How about that God never speaks, never shows up, or that the teachings of the Bible doesn't work?

 

And why is one God more plausible than another God? What are your belief about Allah or Zeus? Why don't they exist?

reply

thanx for the site

it says 'seriously challenges the concept of design'

the site focusses on 'design'

if however step 15 was last as the site claims then the beetle would have trouble aiming and get eaten before the fifteenth mutation.

 

 

to your challenge back 'design' is not the issue. 'only design' would be exclusive but bad mutations are possible [almost all mutations are bad] and not excluded by claiming design in the improvements.

 

last:

about why? why should there be a strong argument because this site is for people who left xianity and have doubts and seeing a strong argument like 'a woman is half the value of the man' will make them feel better for not being part of the evil. but a lame argument does not console does it?

nuf for one day see you all next week.

[prochristian]

Dear 'happy heretical infidel'

would you leave other verified claims like which ships carried the settlers to the americas?

after all you did not see that ship?

if you were a judge and the witnesses had 'different' versions would you say both must be false witnesses and ignore the entire testimony as if there were no witnesses at all?

 

There is no need to leave such claims about the settlers to the Americas, because there is historical evidence for them- plenty of historical evidence. I happen to be related to the pilgrims and to the first Prescotts. All of which is far better documented in history than anything in your story book. There is NO historical evidence for what is in the Bile. The gospels are NOT eyewitness accounts either, so I don't have a clue what you are talking about concerning a judge and different accounts.

 

You may enjoy reading this: http://www.americanh...eject_the_Bible

re[ly

thanx i will reply next week

[bdp]

 

it seems my posts were too complex.

 

 

[bdp]

 

about why? why should there be a strong argument because this site is for people who left xianity and have doubts and seeing a strong argument like 'a woman is half the value of the man' will make them feel better for not being part of the evil.

 

Would you ask your psychiatrist to translate this into English please?

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Ok so first off, you are coming off as a complete asshole. I don't know if you know that or care, but you should know.

 

Of course our experiences and reasons for leaving are not impressive to you. If you had come across a reason you found good enough for leaving you would have left! Yet to Discount the experiences, knowledge and reasons of other people as "lame" is extremely condescending and insulting.

 

 

The christian concept of god does not make sense, their concept of reality does not make sense, their concept of morality does not make sense, their book does not make sense. I guess it does to you because safely within the worldview the circular logic seems sound. But if you want to know why we left, the fact that it makes no sense sums it up well.

[florduh]

I am here to see if those who left christianity had strong arguments... or not

and if not to ask them to add stronger arguments. but it seems my posts were too complex.

You don't need any arguments at all to not be a Christian. The Christians need an argument to get and keep you in their religion.

 

Religions make extraordinary claims and so must provide evidence that their claims are true. None of them do.

 

If you claim flying monkeys exist it is up to you to prove it. Neither I nor anyone else can prove that things don't exist. I know there is no Santa Claus, but I can't actually prove it beyond the fact that Santa's magical nature is beyond any known reality and defies the laws of physics. You may claim that Jehovah, Allah, Jesus, Lucifer, reincarnation, crystal power, ghosts, demons and angels are for real, but you're wasting time for both of us if you have no proof for these extraordinary claims.

[Ouroboros]

reply

thanx for the site

it says 'seriously challenges the concept of design'

the site focusses on 'design'

By showing how it could evolve.

 

if however step 15 was last as the site claims then the beetle would have trouble aiming and get eaten before the fifteenth mutation.

 

Your lack of understanding evolution is showing.

 

to your challenge back 'design' is not the issue. 'only design' would be exclusive but bad mutations are possible [almost all mutations are bad] and not excluded by claiming design in the improvements.

 

What are the chances that two separate mutations (bad or otherwise) are exactly identical, in two different species? Enormous. Only explanation: the species are related.

 

Still, you didn't answer the challenge. I gave you an article that responded to your challenge, but you haven't explained the shared gene mutation between humans and chimpanzees.

 

last:

about why? why should there be a strong argument because this site is for people who left xianity and have doubts and seeing a strong argument like 'a woman is half the value of the man' will make them feel better for not being part of the evil. but a lame argument does not console does it?

nuf for one day see you all next week.

??? Not sure what you're getting at.

[Ouroboros]

 

about why? why should there be a strong argument because this site is for people who left xianity and have doubts and seeing a strong argument like 'a woman is half the value of the man' will make them feel better for not being part of the evil.

 

Would you ask your psychiatrist to translate this into English please?

He's a bit confusing.

[Mriana]

Dear 'happy heretical infidel'

would you leave other verified claims like which ships carried the settlers to the americas?

after all you did not see that ship?

if you were a judge and the witnesses had 'different' versions would you say both must be false witnesses and ignore the entire testimony as if there were no witnesses at all?

 

There is no need to leave such claims about the settlers to the Americas, because there is historical evidence for them- plenty of historical evidence. I happen to be related to the pilgrims and to the first Prescotts. All of which is far better documented in history than anything in your story book. There is NO historical evidence for what is in the Bile. The gospels are NOT eyewitness accounts either, so I don't have a clue what you are talking about concerning a judge and different accounts.

 

You may enjoy reading this: http://www.americanh...eject_the_Bible

re[ly

thanx i will reply next week

 

Next week? So you haven't done any study on this or you have to go ask your preacher for a canned answer?