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That would help, but it appears the "gods" brought big influence. The big question is, where did they come up with the ideas for all the improvements? This is controversial and some laugh at the idea, but some believe the gods were advanced extraterrestials. And that would tie in with the biblical mention of divine chariots in Ezekiel. And I believe other ancient writings mention what could be interpteted as flying machines. There evidently was a jump in technology in that part of the world (including Egypt) during that time.

They seemed to be obsessed with record keeping. I think most of what hey found was records of business deals. Inventories, etc.

Found this super fun baking video about making possessed cakes out of demons! Looks like a devilishly delicious dessert to try out!

Is that because of the god/human sexual relationships that developed?

More on this please.

I am no expert on human evolution, but part of what I have gleaned from the Sumerian stories and discussion of them, is that this section of the world (cradle of our civilization) seemed to get a boost in their evolution (from these Sumerian gods"??) Irrigation. Sailing. Tools, cities, large structures, etc.

The gods had a heirarchy before getting the slaves. One thing I didn't mention is that I'm not sure these stories were written as religious stories, or as myths. . They were found among the general record keeping of the Sumerians?? And I don't remember any mention of humans worshiping these "gods". The worship part seems to have come about after these writings were done?? (the abrahamic religions came much later) And remember that words and phrases change meaning through the ages. The original meaning of "gods" may have been something like "powerful ones", or "those who control us", etc. Modern humans may have given them the "gods" title?? They had regular farm work. Digging canals for irrigation, erc. And some believe they used them for mining gold. And some probably wanted a servant to bring them their food. As you said, they probably got lazy after getting slaves. Or before??

The perspective that I consider is that all started as small tribes of humans, where the strongest (like chimps, lions, wolves etc.) were the leaders. In Africa and the Indians of America, tribal warfare was just a part of their everyday lives. Many made their livelihood by raiding, stealing, and slaving. The Vikings were a prime example. Many African tribes learned that you didn't have to kill your neighbors to take their land and possessions, all you had to do was kill their chief then capture and enslave them, then sell them to mostly white men to make big profits, then take your neighbor's land and property, much more profitable. In the beginnings religions probably played no part in it, but later on Religions could help justify doing the same heinous deeds as before, then feeling moral about doing them -- such as Jericho of the Bible, the holly wars, Monarchs as gods, messengers of God(s), etc. etc.

Hell, I don't need a mower for that! So true.... Hey wait! SLAVES?? Is that how we got to the hierarchy mindset?? Is that how humans decided slavery was a good idea?? But then the slaves got 'smart'.....hmmmm.....and rebelled!!! So the gods got pissed and decided to wipe them out in a flood....hmmmm. Failed experiment #1? Not too bright for being gods, I'd say. This could explain a lot. Like why we are compelled to 'worship god' in the first place. And why slavery came about (laziness??? ). So if all this is true, it would explain a lot, but there's still more. What manual labor would 'gods' need humans to perform in the first place that they couldn't do themselves (that was apparently so damn hard a god didn't want to do it)? And did they need humans to worship them while they labored for them? Inquiring minds want to know....

The ones who want an attractive, yet docile boyfriend/husband (I'll answer the questions when I get the time haha)

I enjoy mowing the pasture. Going around in circles with no other distractions for 2 or 3 hours is a great time to think. For years I have said that throughout history wealthy and powerful humans have used the "common" people to do their dirty work. But had never really thought much about when and how it all got started. In my mind it seemed powerful people in the long ago simply forced "common" people to do their dirty work, and fight their battles, etc. Later forcing them to pay taxes, etc. Did reigions play a role? If so, when did it start? It didn't seem logical that powerful religions sprung out of belief in rain and sun gods. Yesterday a concept took form while I was mowing, about how this possibly all came about. Keep in mind some of this is "tongue in cheek" (but perhaps some truth)?? I also realize there may be some "disjoints" in the post, but heck, what else is going on these days on the forum?? Looking back at the Sumerian stories of human creation, this fell into place. The area where they lived was between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. As the story goes, the lower Sumerian "gods" were complaining about the manual labor they had to do, so two of the higher gods decided to "create" some beings designed to do the common jobs and hard labor. They wanted servants and slaves. There is some confusion about how this was exactly done, but they made these "humans" to look like themselves (in their image) (sound familiar)??. But they evidently were "dumbed down" and docile. But smart enough to follow directions, which is what the authoritarian Sumerians wanted. It seems to have worked, but for how long did it last? Then the stories say the sons of some of these gods saw the daughters of these humans were attractive and started marrying them. (sound familiar)? After all, what male doesn't want an attractive, yet docile wife?? This may have created a problem. Would mixing "god" brains with docile "human" brains produce some problems?? Including the kids? And if this mixing of dominate and docile, intelligent and simple, went on long enough, wouldn't the majority of "people" eventually become "average" and fight over who was in charge?? How could the powerful ones (gods) stay in control without continually using force?? . WAS A NEW RELIGION EVENTUALLY DEVELOPED?? Convince everyone that they are born incomplete, and incapabe. Convince them they have a "spirit" or "soul" that is tainted. And only ONE GOD can save them by worshipping him and obeying him. Questioning and disobeying is evil. See how he caused all those evil people to be killed in a flood!! He will get you one way or another if you are not loyal. And later something was added. Don't worry about dying. And even if you are in a terrible situation, just HANG IN THERE! If you believe in and will follow GOD, when you die, you will go to a glorious place called Heaven where you will live forever. Or if you don't believe in him, and disobey, you will burn in Hell forever. This, with some brute force behind it worked for ages by keeping people "in their place." In subjection. But, dang it! Democratic ideas came along and began to take hold. People questioned authority and wanted to protect themselves from overwhelming power. But even while this was being fought over over the centuries, powrful people supplying the war machines were making money paid for by common peoples labor and taxes. And common soliders paying with their lives. And much later the rich and powerful found other ways to stay rich and powerful without using force or religion. And in some ways they are stilll our gods. How do they stay in power?? Consider this conversation. (1) You need to keep the masses uneducated. Whatever you do, don't encourage critical thinking. We don't need them seeing the big pictire of life. But do give them job training to do the jobs that make us richer and more powerful. (2) They love instant gratification. They want to "feel good" at all time. Give them gadgets to play with, trivial entertainment, and food and drink, and whatever else that feels good and helps them forget their problems. Keep them busy, so they don't have time to sit around and think. We don't want them contemplating on things. (3) Do what you can to keep them squabbling with each other. Encourage competition---machoism---not cooperation. Remember to promote the religions our ancestors developed that divide them into good and evil. The division and chaos means profits for us. Also, talking about religion, do your best to make that Jesus character look like a sissy. We don't want people caring about each other. Remember, all those policemen also need jobs. And an occasional war is great for our profits ---- well, at least as long as they don't annahiliate the entire population on earth! (4) And that reminds me. Do what you can to keep them having as many kids as possible. We need people, the more the better, to make our stuff, to sell our stuff to, and to fight our wars. And remind them that God hates queers. They don't provide more people for us to use. I could go into how the rich and powerful, including churches, manuplate taxes to their advantage. And the role they play in politics, but that is getting into "No, No" land, so I will leave it at what has already been said. The point is that I believe the rich and powerful "gods" of the Sumerians may have been the beings who started the roll toward Abrahamic religions in the middle east. And sly people (their decendents)?? are still doing what they can to keep those concepts going?? Whoever has been responsible have kept the powerful religions based on fear rolling. Powerful tools for powerful people from the beginning. And some believe this "line" of people are some of the top 1% of the worlds richest people now. Possible?? And I will end with two more questions. (A) Since we don't believe the biblical "God" was the originator of these powerful religions that have helped to control so many through the ages, where did the brains for the huge scheme come from?? (B) Why do so many people today still hang onto authoritarian "pie in the sky" promises? Religious and secular.

When I originally deconverted, it was because I realized I'd been tricked into following a cult. During my belief, I tended to only listen to Christian sources and shut out the others. But when I started questioning, it was like a flood of all the things I'd stored up over the years came rushing through my mind because I'd seen and heard so many things that didn't add up. It still took a good year of praying, fasting, really asking questions, getting no answers, and eventually concluding no one was listening. I wrote out all of the troubling things I'd seen in scripture (god being a complete wank by setting up humanity in the garden, god having body parts, the cosmology of Genesis being messed up, Tower of Babel is tiny compared to skyscrapers but god is fine with those, airplanes go higher yet, spacecraft we built go up above and keep going without hitting a dome that separates us from Heaven, god blessing mass rape and genocide, etc). Even with built-in anxiety since I was small, I was able to overcome fear when I realized I was part of a cult and got angry at being deceived. These days I like to watch videos by Bart Ehrman on YouTube. He covers all kinds of reasons why the stories we have in the Bible are not historically accurate or eyewitness testimonies (they are made up by writers from different groups). Other scholars on YouTube like Dan McClellan and Digital Hammurabi take apart all kinds of claims of believers using actual history and knowledge of ancient languages. I also echo what TheRedneckProfessor wrote, get yourself involved in actual life doing things you enjoy and being with people you like, and you'll get used to not even thinking about the woo claims and ooga-booga fears of the cult. I took dance lessons, voice lessons, and now have a gang of musician friends. I garden, get out in nature, and cook well. Find fun, find humor, and explore your own unique self that has been suppressed.

KrustyKrabPizza: I've read your testimony with interest. Do you have any resources that you have found that might be helpful to others? Perhaps you have specific questions that folk here may be able to respond to? I know people would be pleased to hear from you. Best wishes.

Yes. I was saying we need to get rid of the idea that what Adam and Eve did (called original sin) made all mankind defective and "lost".

You're losing me here. If it's not the sexual act, then I guess I need more clarification. Do you mean eating the fruit, defying God's command?

I think we have a misunderstanding. What you are talking about may have actually been the original sin (it has been called the oldest profession), but the one I was referring to was the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden that resulted in us all being born sinners in Gods sight. We probably should take discussion of the oldest profession to another forum.

Seems to me there has been no visible problems with just treating sex as it is; a biological inevitability. Stop pretending you can stop it and work with it for everyone's benefit. Since twenty years have elapsed in NZ since this law's reasonable implementation, couldn't we say the positive results of treating sex rationally is a GOOD IDEA and benefits society and economies rather than 'original sin' concepts, which clearly do not work? I have not heard of any ill effects from the legalization of prostitution in Nevada either for that matter.

I had to double check, the "Prostitution reform bill" was passed in 2003, so we are just pass 20 years on it being legal. Wasn't long after the Netherlands legalizing it in 2000, becoming the first European country to do so. Personally, I've seen no negative effects. People who used the services before it was legal continued to do so, and those who didn't want to didn't change their minds. It felt like more prostitutes changed to working at gentlemen's clubs or as escorts, and less street walkers. We used to have red light districts (Fort St and upper K Road for those who know Auckland), but both of those cleaned up and are more mixed commercial areas now. There are still brothels and strip clubs, but fewer and less in your face. There is a working girl support service, free health checks and all legal protections. It's all been good from what I can see.

Yes, I know about Nevada. Geez, Weez. I didn't say I wanted to BE a prostitute!

The writing was just there. No significance. NDEs seem to reflect the persons basic beliefs. No religion, no religious message. My wife's "pagan" uncle had one on the operating table and the only thing it did was to cure him of the fear of death.

The state of Nevada has allowed prostitution for decades. Hey, it is the Sodom and Gomorrah of America! You might want to move to Las Vegas.

Here is another very informative book that is not directly related to the subjects you are questioning, but is an overall view of the development of human beings that puts the whole concept of the biblical God and related religions into question. I believe looking at the big picture is a more effective way of putting those individual concepts to rest, than focusing directly on them. The book. SAPIENS, by Yuval Noah Harari

Don't underestimate resources that aren't actually "resources." What I mean is that focusing on other things besides trying to explain all of the inexplicables can often be a profound source of enlightenment and relief. Take up a completely unrelated hobby, or study a new language. Learn to quilt. Maybe just focus on upgrading the house for a bit. If it doesn't help, I'll admit I was wrong; but you'll feel like you've accomplished something.

While Nontheist has given you enough to keep you busy for a long time, I'll toss this one onto the list: A Manual for Creating Atheists, by Peter Boghossian.

I have been on the road for over fifteen years following retirement from Christian ministry. I enjoy reading! (I used to read Strong’s Theology before settling down at night – eek) It’s been a struggle (and in some senses still is a struggle) to sort out my beliefs after so many years a Christian and so much commitment to the church and ministry. I have grown into a full atheist position but still feel that I need to read more of the absurdity of Christianity and its basic beliefs. So you may understand this mixed list of books that have helped me down the years. In no particular order. Godless for God’s sake by David Boulton was a very important starter. The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy really got me thinking! The Age of reason by Thomas Paine. Did Jesus exist (1986 edition) by G A Wells (my present reading, rather difficult) God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens. Who on Earth was Jesus by David Boulton. All that’s wrong with the Bible by Jonah Conner. The End of Faith by Sam Harris. Atheism for Dummies. The Dark Side by Valerie Tarico. Jesus interupted by Bart Ehrman. Goodbye Jesus by Tim Sledge. The Portable Atheist (selected readings by Christopher Hitchens). Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman. Crazy for God by Frank Schaeffer. The world’s sixteen crucified Saviours by Kersey Graves. I'd be interested to know what you find helpful from your own researches.