The Many And Varied Gates Of Hell

[julian]

"Atleast its temporary and sounds more like a learning experiance. That makes more sense than abrahamic hell were you burn forever with no second chance or anything."

 

True, although I hate to call it "hell" (a lot gets lost in translation from Sanskrit to English). To me, calling it "hell" is like comparing child abuse to a timeout.

[willybilly30]

"Atleast its temporary and sounds more like a learning experiance. That makes more sense than abrahamic hell were you burn forever with no second chance or anything."

 

True, although I hate to call it "hell" (a lot gets lost in translation from Sanskrit to English). To me, calling it "hell" is like comparing child abuse to a timeout.

I have read a few things on hinduism and this thread is the first time I have heard that word being used in hinduism.

[Open_Minded]

Infinite implies IN ALL - THROUGH ALL - BEYOND ALL. We speak of Christ as the Alpha and Omega - the Beginning and the End - so how can there be physical separation from the Alpha and Omega?

 

But.... I still await Freeday's response.... which of the many gates of hell will he enter?

So if it is impossible to be seperate from god why bother with religion? If everyone is one with god then to me that makes preachers, churches and things like that unnessesary.

 

If you mean unnecessary for "salvation" I agree wholeheartedly. My minister would also agree.

 

However, on personal level, my church and the group of people I am close to at church are VERY necessary in my day-to-day life. It is with these people that I can talk freely about myself - much like this board, actually.

 

It is with the group of people at church that I feel I am challenged to grow spiritually.

 

But, Willy, I do agree with you - the concept of needing a religion, church, minister etc... to connect with God is outdated (to say the least).

[julian]

"Atleast its temporary and sounds more like a learning experiance. That makes more sense than abrahamic hell were you burn forever with no second chance or anything."

 

True, although I hate to call it "hell" (a lot gets lost in translation from Sanskrit to English). To me, calling it "hell" is like comparing child abuse to a timeout.

I have read a few things on hinduism and this thread is the first time I have heard that word being used in hinduism.

 

Yeah, it's extremely seldom, if ever, used for exactly the reasons I stated. It's basically an inaccurate term, but it doesn't matter if the explanation comes along with it.

[willybilly30]

Infinite implies IN ALL - THROUGH ALL - BEYOND ALL. We speak of Christ as the Alpha and Omega - the Beginning and the End - so how can there be physical separation from the Alpha and Omega?

 

But.... I still await Freeday's response.... which of the many gates of hell will he enter?

So if it is impossible to be seperate from god why bother with religion? If everyone is one with god then to me that makes preachers, churches and things like that unnessesary.

 

If you mean unnecessary for "salvation" I agree wholeheartedly. My minister would also agree.

 

However, on personal level, my church and the group of people I am close to at church are VERY necessary in my day-to-day life. It is with these people that I can talk freely about myself - much like this board, actually.

 

It is with the group of people at church that I feel I am challenged to grow spiritually.

 

But, Willy, I do agree with you - the concept of needing a religion, church, minister etc... to connect with God is outdated (to say the least).

I'd rather hang with my friends at the park or something not listen to a preacher rant and rave on a pulpit for hours on end. I never did see why some people like that I know I never did.

[freeday]

 

This is not a good analogy for God, unless you mean for people to distrust him. Then again, many understand that Jehovah's origins were as a volcano god, and in this sense the psalmist may mean that God's righteosness is like a destuctive volcano?

 

i used to live in denver, did hiking and what not; the view from the top of the mountain was inspiring to me. i find it a good analogy, but i see your side. even my wife did not care for the mountains.

[freeday]

 

The original question was … which hell will you fry in for not believing the absolute truth from the correct innerant scripture?

 

Now - let's look at things from another perspective. How do you know the Christian scriptures are the TRUE scriptures? How do you know that the scriptures of Islam aren't really the TRUE and authoritave word of God - they say they are. Actually - for that matter - how do you know the Hindu Scriptures or the sacred literature of the Buddhist tradition aren't the ONLY TRUE AND AUTHORITATIVE WORD OF GOD

 

If any one of those major world religions has a corner on the truth, then your goose is cooked Freeday. You will fry in their hell. And you know this. You know how totally irrational this all is.

 

You know wars have been fought over these very issues. You were alive and saw the twin towers crumble into dust taking 1000s of lives with them - all because some literalist extremists from the Islam tradition decided it was their moral duty to kill the infidels.

 

And knowing all this - you are still clinging to a literalist view of Christianity. Still clinging to something so destructive - that you must deal with the internal pain of believing that people you love will go to hell.

 

You know what Freeday - you don't have to choose a hell. You're already in a metaphorical hell - and I do feel compassion for that. Whether you believe it or not, I do.

 

just so you know, i do not have a degree in theology, i am your ordinary joe christian. i have been up for close to 19 hours now, if there are type-o's i appologize. good night.

 

Just so you know, I don't have a degree in theology, either. One does not need a theology degree to think for oneself, Freeday.

 

 

One other thing ... Mr. Grinch and I agree on a lot of things. He comes across more hard-hitting than I do.

 

But with the following I'm in total agreement:

 

Freeday, just ADMIT that your literalist understanding of the Bible causes you pain! ADMIT IT! The idea of your "loving god" behaving NO DIFFERENTLY than the Muslim's Allah is offensive to you. ADMIT IT!

 

It was "hard to answer" because you were seeking some spiritual escape hatch to dodge the issue and you found that there was none.

 

Freeday... just think ... as painful as it is - if you truly want to be "Free" than THINK.

 

How is the picture of God you've been taught any different than the picture of Allah that the 9/11 highjacker's had? How - in the end - both understandings of God would fry people in hell - how can you reconcile that with an INFINITE GOD OF LOVE?

 

you raise some very good questions, unfortunately i have not read up on worldly religions, i mainly focused on american religions. and these questions i have struggled with for years now. i have personall experience with losing loved ones, and not sure of there beliefs. as far as hell, i beleive hell to be a place apart from God. i believe in the God of abraham, so there god must not exist, nor does there hell. me and my athiest (not william, but another) friend had this very discussion.

and this is the conclusion me and him came to.

 

Disclaimer, the following is my own thoughts, not validated through the bible, but my own interpritation, thus it should be taken with a grain of salt. just so i don't mislead anyone.

 

the conclussion we came to is based soley on the assumption that the other major worldly religions believe in one god. our thoughts were if you believed in only one higher power, and lived a moral life, what is the difference wether his name is God, or whatever the names of there god's are. that is just a thought. I can only speculate on this.

 

i am glad we are to the point we can have some good conversations, i will admit you guys have been good for me. you have raised questions that i want to seek answers too. i have been reading like mad crazy.

 

one person posed the question that the bible is based on mythological pagan beliefs. (i have not forgotten about you) this is something i have been researching extensively. also i am halfway through the evolution book in 2 days. without you probing me, i would not be doing this. so i thank you for motivating me to get off my lazy christian butt. i was becoming very complacent.

[Antlerman]

 

This is not a good analogy for God, unless you mean for people to distrust him. Then again, many understand that Jehovah's origins were as a volcano god, and in this sense the psalmist may mean that God's righteosness is like a destuctive volcano?

 

i used to live in denver, did hiking and what not; the view from the top of the mountain was inspiring to me. i find it a good analogy, but i see your side. even my wife did not care for the mountains.

Oh course I was just playing with the analogy. I actually find the moutains very inspiring - from a vantage point of saftey of course

 

One friendly correction for you: They're not "worldly" religions, but rather "world" religions. Worldly means:

 

-characteristic of or devoted to the temporal world; "worldly goods and advancement"

 

-blase: very sophisticated especially because of surfeit; versed in the ways of the world; "the blase traveler refers to the ocean he has crossed as `the pond'"; "the benefits of his worldly wisdom"

 

-temporal: concerned with secular rather than sacred matters; "lords temporal and spiritual"

 

That's not how you meant it, at least I didn't think you did

[freeday]

 

That's not how you meant it, at least I didn't think you did

 

 

thank you for the correction, i will be the first to admit i made C's in english comp

[Open_Minded]

Disclaimer, the following is my own thoughts, not validated through the bible, but my own interpritation, thus it should be taken with a grain of salt. just so i don't mislead anyone.

 

And that is why we've been questioning you so hard, Feeday. All anyone here wants is for you to follow your own thoughts. And no - your own interpretation should NOT be taken with a grain of salt. We have brains - using them is NOT sinful.

 

you raise some very good questions, unfortunately i have not read up on worldly religions, i mainly focused on american religions. and these questions i have struggled with for years now. i have personall experience with losing loved ones, and not sure of there beliefs. as far as hell, i beleive hell to be a place apart from God.

 

I'm going to challenge you some more, Freeday. If God is infinite, eternal Love. If Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the Infinite I AM than how can anyone, or anything be "apart from God". We can FEEL separated from LOVE. We can FEEL separate from infinite love and wisdom and peace - but if it is truly infinite than - nothing, no-one, is in reality separated from God.

 

the conclussion we came to is based soley on the assumption that the other major worldly religions believe in one god. our thoughts were if you believed in only one higher power, and lived a moral life, what is the difference wether his name is God, or whatever the names of there god's are. that is just a thought. I can only speculate on this.

 

Speculating is good - because it's thinking. And as I said, earlier - that's all anyone here asks is that you think through your positions. Do you believe what you believe because that's what you've been taught - or - do you believe what you believe because you've examined the belief in great detail - put it through examination of competing beliefs - and come to the conclusion that the belief has solid grounding?

 

i am glad we are to the point we can have some good conversations, i will admit you guys have been good for me. you have raised questions that i want to seek answers too. i have been reading like mad crazy.

 

I look forward to further conversation Freeday, but now I'm the one who is tired and ready for bed. Catch you tomorrow.

[freeday]

 

I'm going to challenge you some more, Freeday. If God is infinite, eternal Love. If Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the Infinite I AM than how can anyone, or anything be "apart from God". We can FEEL separated from LOVE. We can FEEL separate from infinite love and wisdom and peace - but if it is truly infinite than - nothing, no-one, is in reality separated from God.

 

God allows us free will. Just as in an earthly relationship, we can love someone but we cannot force them to love us back. If we did, what kind of love would that be? It most definitely not be a love worth having. Our sinful desires came into this world because of one man. However, we all make the choice to continue to give into our sinful nature. Satan was given dominion over earth because of the orginal sin of Adam and Eve. However, we make the choice to sin all on our own. God could keep Satan away, but then that would be the same as taking us captive and demanding that we love Him. A just God would never demand that. Because we are all equipped with a spiritual being there is only one other option apart from the one God has freely given. That would be to spend eternity in the kingdom of Satan. Which, sadly, is hell. God's wish is for all of us to love Him and spend eternity with Him. This is the very reason He sent His Son when it was apparent that man was incapable of resisting the temptations of Satan. However, just as we would never force someone to love us, He will not force us to love Him. I hope that this provides you with the answer you seek.

[Ouroboros]

OM, you are the least Christian Christian I ever met. LOL.

I think OM represents the True Christians, the way they started, but other people took it, mistunderstood it and ran. Became politics and control, instead of solemn understanding of our self.

 

 

I post about 50-100 posts, and get one response, all the time. I'm killing you guys with posts. Hehe.

 

Anyway, if Hell is a sure thing, then why wouldn't God make sure the Christians agreed upon how/what it is, and why you would go there? If it is a punishment, then what can one learn from an eternal torture?

 

When my kids do something wrong, a punishment is temporary, so they learn to do right.

 

Is Hell an eternal holding cell, because God is scared we might overthrow his power?

[Open_Minded]

but if it is truly infinite than - nothing, no-one, is in reality separated from God.

God allows us free will. Just as in an earthly relationship, we can love someone but we cannot force them to love us back.

Freeday - this could become a very interesting conversation. So please bear with me.

 

For now - let's assume that your take on freewill is beyond debate. (And this is a big assumption because there are many ways to look at that concept). But for now let's assume God allows us free will.

 

You say...

 

Just as in an earthly relationship, we can love someone but we cannot force them to love us back.

And then you go onto elaborate. When I talk of being outside of God's love I am not talking about our own feelings towards God.

 

Most major world religions connect Ultimate reality with Love, Wisdom, Infinite, Eternal, in all through all and beyond all. Christianity uses some of the following language.

• God is Love
  
• God is omnipresent
  
• God is omnipotent
  
• We live and move and have our being in Christ
  
• Christ is the Alpha and the Omega (beginning and end)
  
• Christ is eternal - infinite WORD made flesh - before Abraham was I AM
  

OK... back to my statement:

 

but if it is truly infinite than - nothing, no-one, is in reality separated from God

 

To me this statement has nothing to do with free will. The beginning and the end exist. Define it how you want but you live within it, you breathe within it, you move within it, you think within it. It can't be helped, separating yourself from the Alpha and Omega is not physically possible.

 

Now... if by extension... the Alpha and Omega is connected with infinite WISDOM, LOVE, etc... then we can no more be separated from infinite LOVE, WISDOM, etc... than we can physically exist beyond the beginning and the end.

 

Now - there are many who do NOT associate LOVE and WISDOM, etc... with ultimate reality. (Many on this board would gladly be willing to debate me on that one statement alone).

 

And you know what, Freeday. I can't prove my beliefs right and theirs wrong. But, in the end - that isn't what my point is about. My point is simple....

 

If YOU believe God is infinite, Love, Wisdom, infinite Mercy, infinite Grace ..... If YOU believe that Christ is the Alpha and the Omega.... then how can anyone - or anything - exist outside of that. It's either infinite, it's either the Alpha and the Omega - or it's not.

 

This has nothing to do with "free will". It has nothing to do with whether we believe we are a part of the Alpha and Omega - the infinite LOVE. It has nothing to do with whether we can prove it - or not.

 

If GOD is all these things - then there can be no existence outside of GOD - NONE.

 

Whether we acknowledge it, accept it, believe it - is moot.

 

Is Hell an eternal holding cell, because God is scared we might overthrow his power?

 

 

HanSolo... that statement is bringing back fond memories of a thread earlier this year. Do you remember when we all went fundi over the Cute Bunny.

 

Well ... follow your thought through on the "holding cell". Maybe it is - but it's a big risk God is taking. Because there will be far more souls in hell then there will be in heaven. Someday there will be enough souls in hell to overtake heaven.

 

And well - if all the souls from ALL the many and varied hells combined efforts they could probably overtake heaven right now. I mean we're thousands of years into this drama - maybe all the hells below are beginning to see possibilities and they're starting to overtake heaven right now.

[Ouroboros]

What was the number we came up with? A couple of hundred thousand saved souls, and 10 billion souls in Hell? Nice ROI God!

 

(ROI=Return of Investment, very important for the investor that buy a $15 stock and expects to get more in return, like 50-100%. But God doesn't see it that way, he puts 10,000,000,000 into the system, and gets 200,000 back. Gawd! That's bad management!!! He needs to be ousted, essentially fired!)

 

 

Here's a thought:

 

The universe will collapse and start over again, like in cycles.

 

God, angels, devil, demons, hell etc, starts over again.

 

In the new universe and the new earth, this time, the demons... that's us! Muahahaha!!!

[Antlerman]

ROI=Return of Investment, very important for the investor that buy a $15 stock and expects to get more in return, like 50-100%. But God doesn't see it that way, he puts 10,000,000,000 into the system, and gets 200,000 back. Gawd! That's bad management!!! He needs to be ousted, essentially fired

This is something that's been in the back of mind all along. Some salvation plan!! Not too damned sucessful. Maybe he needs some divine god consultants to help him on a solid business plan before he embarks on his next creation attempt. Maybe this was his first attempt at it and is really just a junior god? Maybe his father has a more sucessful salvation rate in his universe?

[Ouroboros]

This is something that's been in the back of mind all along. Some salvation plan!! Not too damned sucessful. Maybe he needs some divine god consultants to help him on a solid business plan before he embarks on his next creation attempt. Maybe this was his first attempt at it and is really just a junior god? Maybe his father has a more sucessful salvation rate in his universe?

Maybe we're just the antfarm that he's preparing for his science contest in school...

[Open_Minded]

ROI=Return of Investment, very important for the investor that buy a $15 stock and expects to get more in return, like 50-100%. But God doesn't see it that way, he puts 10,000,000,000 into the system, and gets 200,000 back. Gawd! That's bad management!!! He needs to be ousted, essentially fired

This is something that's been in the back of mind all along. Some salvation plan!! Not too damned sucessful. Maybe he needs some divine god consultants to help him on a solid business plan before he embarks on his next creation attempt. Maybe this was his first attempt at it and is really just a junior god? Maybe his father has a more sucessful salvation rate in his universe?

 

Damn, Antlerman - you may be onto something....

 

Last night I was considering HanSolo's ROI post and thinking that maybe we're not giving Gawd high enough chances for success. I mean - think about it, if all the many and varied hells combine effort to overtake heaven - wouldn't it make sense that all the many and varied gawds would combine forces?

 

Don't we have to factor that into the equation?

 

How many gawds have there been since the dawn of time? Surely there would be enough power between all of them to forestall an overthrow by forces from the many and varied gates of hell?

[Ouroboros]

And both in the Psalms and Jesus confirms that we are gods too. So heck, there's a whole bunch in Hell right now, and plenty more on Earth right now.

 

I like Scott Adam's book God's Debris, since it postulates that we are the fragments of God, and we all combined make up God.

[Open_Minded]

Freeday .... it has been several days since I posted the following. I really am waiting for a resposne.

______________________________________________________________________

 

but if it is truly infinite than - nothing, no-one, is in reality separated from God.

God allows us free will. Just as in an earthly relationship, we can love someone but we cannot force them to love us back.

Freeday - this could become a very interesting conversation. So please bear with me.

 

For now - let's assume that your take on freewill is beyond debate. (And this is a big assumption because there are many ways to look at that concept). But for now let's assume God allows us free will.

 

You say...

 

Just as in an earthly relationship, we can love someone but we cannot force them to love us back.

And then you go onto elaborate. When I talk of being outside of God's love I am not talking about our own feelings towards God.

 

Most major world religions connect Ultimate reality with Love, Wisdom, Infinite, Eternal, in all through all and beyond all. Christianity uses some of the following language.

• God is Love
  
• God is omnipresent
  
• God is omnipotent
  
• We live and move and have our being in Christ
  
• Christ is the Alpha and the Omega (beginning and end)
  
• Christ is eternal - infinite WORD made flesh - before Abraham was I AM
  

OK... back to my statement:

 

but if it is truly infinite than - nothing, no-one, is in reality separated from God

 

To me this statement has nothing to do with free will. The beginning and the end exist. Define it how you want but you live within it, you breathe within it, you move within it, you think within it. It can't be helped, separating yourself from the Alpha and Omega is not physically possible.

 

Now... if by extension... the Alpha and Omega is connected with infinite WISDOM, LOVE, etc... then we can no more be separated from infinite LOVE, WISDOM, etc... than we can physically exist beyond the beginning and the end.

 

Now - there are many who do NOT associate LOVE and WISDOM, etc... with ultimate reality. (Many on this board would gladly be willing to debate me on that one statement alone).

 

And you know what, Freeday. I can't prove my beliefs right and theirs wrong. But, in the end - that isn't what my point is about. My point is simple....

 

If YOU believe God is infinite, Love, Wisdom, infinite Mercy, infinite Grace ..... If YOU believe that Christ is the Alpha and the Omega.... then how can anyone - or anything - exist outside of that. It's either infinite, it's either the Alpha and the Omega - or it's not.

 

This has nothing to do with "free will". It has nothing to do with whether we believe we are a part of the Alpha and Omega - the infinite LOVE. It has nothing to do with whether we can prove it - or not.

 

If GOD is all these things - then there can be no existence outside of GOD - NONE.

 

Whether we acknowledge it, accept it, believe it - is moot.

 

What do you think about the above statement, Freeday?

[Open_Minded]

OK ...

1. Since Freeday is ignoring this thread ... and
   
2. Since this thread is about the many and varied gates of hell ... and
   
3. Since a friend of mine just emailed me something very - well - interesting regarding hell
   

You all have most likely seen this before - but it's worth posting.

 

Email from a friend titled: Hell explained by chemistry student

 

The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the Professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well:

 

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) Or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

 

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law:

 

(Gas cools when it expands and heats when it is Compressed) or some variant.

 

One student, however, wrote the following:

 

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

 

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

 

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:

 

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

 

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the Increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

 

So which is it?

 

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my freshman year that, "It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct......leaving only Heaven, thereby Proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."

 

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A"