The Many And Varied Gates Of Hell

[Open_Minded]

Hello Freeday....

 

You never answered my question. Yes... I know - it was a bit of a side topic in the thread on evolution. So... I'm starting a new thread especially dedicated to the many and varied gates of Hell.

 

Please let me know which one you will fry in because you do not literally believe the correct innerrant sacred book?

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=189060

 

yes i believe in a hell. the term hades actually derived from "Gehenna." This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. that is our depiction of hell. Jesus said that it is a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and a place apart from God in darkness. The bible makes clear who will go there and who will not.

 

Freeday ….

 

So… you believe in a literal hell, which literal hell?

 

The Christian one?

Christianity. Bible, Revelation 21.8

 

As for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolators, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.

 

The Islam Hell?

Islam. Qur'an 78.21-30

 

Hell will lurk in ambush

to receive home the arrogant,

who will linger there for ages.

They will taste nothing cool in it nor any drink

except hot bathwater and slops,

a fitting compensation

since they have never expected any reckoning

and have wittingly rejected

Our signs.

Everything We have calculated in writing

.

"So taste! Yet We shall only increase torment for you!"

 

The Buddhist Hell?

Buddhism. Lotus Sutra 3

 

After their lifetime's end

They will enter the Avici hell,

For a complete kalpa;

Reborn at each kalpa's end,

They thus go on revolving

Unto innumerable kalpas;

When they come out of hell,

They will degrade into animals,

Such as dogs or jackals,

With lean-cheeked forms,

Blue-black with scabs and sores,

The sport of men;

Moreover by men

Hated and scorned,

Ever suffering hunger and thirst,

Bones and flesh withered up.

Alive, beaten with thorns,

Dead, with shards and stones;

By cutting themselves off from the Buddha seed,

They receive such recompense

.

 

And another description of Buddhist Hell

Buddhism. Sutta Nipata 672-76

 

Then the man of unwholesome deeds boils in water infested with worms. He cannot stay still--the boiling pots, round and smooth like bowls, have no surfaces which he can get hold of. Then he is in the jungle of sword blades, limbs mangled and hacked, the tongue hauled by hooks, the body beaten and slashed. Then he is in Vetarani, a watery state difficult to get through, with its two streams that cut like razors. The poor beings fall into it, living out their unwholesome deeds of the past. Gnawed by hungry jackals, ravens and black dogs, and speckled vultures and crows, the sufferers groan. Such a state is experienced by the man of unwholesome deeds. It is a state of absolute suffering. So a sensible person in this world is as energetic and mindful as he can be.

 

Or… maybe your partial to the Hindu version of Hell…

Hinduism. Garuda Purana 3.49-71

Some of the sinful are cut with saws, like firewood, and others, thrown flat on the ground, are chopped into pieces with axes. Some, their bodies half buried in a pit, are pierced in the head with arrows. Others, fixed in the middle of a press, are squeezed like sugarcane. Some are surrounded close with blazing charcoal, enwrapped with torches, and smelted like a lump of ore. Some are plunged into heated butter, and others into heated oil, and like a cake thrown into the frying pan they are turned about. Some are thrown in the path of huge maddened elephants, and some with hands and feet bound are placed head downwards. Some are thrown into wells; some are hurled from heights; others, plunged into pits full of worms, are eaten away by them....

 

And now here's the tricky question … which hell will you fry in for not believing the absolute truth from the correct innerant scripture?

[Guest JP]

OM, you are the least Christian Christian I ever met. LOL.

[willybilly30]

I didn't know buddhism and hinduism had a hell I thought they believed in reincarnation. who goes to them hells? Damn with all these hells you better be sure you pick the right one but with all four of them choices your likely too choose one that offends the other so you'll go to hell anyway. If their is a hell we are all going including you freeday.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

I didn't know buddhism and hinduism had a hell I thought they believed in reincarnation. who goes to them hells? Damn with all these hells you better be sure you pick the right one but with all four of them choices your likely too choose one that offends the other so you'll go to hell anyway. If their is a hell we are all going including you freeday.

 

 

My understanding was that it was certain variants of buddhist that had a hell;

other variants did not. But I'm not as up on buddhism as maybe I ought to be.

Maybe one of the buddhists on the board could clarify. But you're point is

taken, freeday will be going to a hell, too.

[Open_Minded]

OM, you are the least Christian Christian I ever met. LOL.

 

Well.... thanks .... I think.

 

Seriously though, where is Freeday? .... I checked his activity and he was active AFTER I started this thread. So.... what's the deal? I mean, I know I'm a heretic and all, but he talks to all of you.

 

So.... why isn't he answering, me?

 

My understanding was that it was certain variants of buddhist that had a hell; other variants did not.

 

Just as there are variants of Christianity who do not believe in a literal hell, and there are variants that do. All the major world religions have some form of hell, and every major world religion has its literalists.

 

And all the rest of us have to live the literalists, no matter what religion they come from.

 

Anyway ... back to the topic at hand... where are you Freeday.... I'm waiting.

[nick5]

you should send him a pm

[Checkmate]

OM, you are the least Christian Christian I ever met. LOL.

 

Well.... thanks .... I think.

 

Seriously though, where is Freeday? .... I checked his activity and he was active AFTER I started this thread. So.... what's the deal? I mean, I know I'm a heretic and all, but he talks to all of you.

 

So.... why isn't he answering, me?

.................

Maybe for the same reason our new visitors avoid my posts? They have no answers, so cowardice is the better part of valor. They conveniently don't see what we've written. (Do what Nick5 says. Send Freeday a PM and make SURE he/she gets the challenge/message.)

 

O_M, you and I are two sides of the same coin. We leave very little (if any) wiggle room in our arguments for any opponent to slip through, and equivocators HATE that!

 

(I think this is why I like you so much. In spite of the fact that you are one of those people. )

[JeffXL]

OM-- that post kicks ass!

 

Dammit, I'll have to blow the dust off my religion books, but as I recall Hinduism & Buddhism do have hells, they're not eternal. Just nearly so. You can get enlightened and move up the ranks to Nirvana from the lowest depths.

 

That's what I vaguely remember.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

 

Just as there are variants of Christianity who do not believe in a literal hell, and there are variants that do. All the major world religions have some form of hell, and every major world religion has its literalists.

 

And all the rest of us have to live the literalists, no matter what religion they come from.

 

Anyway ... back to the topic at hand... where are you Freeday.... I'm waiting.

 

 

You clearly know too much about his religion. He thinks the rest of

us are easy marks ignorant of it and can be preached into his

way of thinking.

[Open_Minded]

O_M, you and I are two sides of the same coin. We leave very little (if any) wiggle room in our arguments for any opponent to slip through, and equivocators HATE that!

 

Thanks Mr. Grinch... we are two sides of the same coin aren't we. I think that's why you've made me laugh from the get-go.

 

OM-- that post kicks ass!

 

Dammit, I'll have to blow the dust off my religion books, but as I recall Hinduism & Buddhism do have hells, they're not eternal. Just nearly so. You can get enlightened and move up the ranks to Nirvana from the lowest depths.

 

Thanks Jeff... fill us in on what you learn in your religion books. If Freeday isn't going to participate - maybe we can learn something ourselves.

 

He thinks the rest of us are easy marks ignorant of it and can be preached into his

way of thinking.

 

You all are a lot of things, but "easy marks" and "Ignorant" are not among them:)

 

Thanks everyone. I'll PM Freeday in the morning - if he doesn't respond tonight.

 

Meanwhile - if you see him around the board, do me a big favor and bump this thread to the top and then remind Freeday he has a question to answer.

 

Thanks again.

[freeday]

OM, you are the least Christian Christian I ever met. LOL.

 

Well.... thanks .... I think.

 

Seriously though, where is Freeday? .... I checked his activity and he was active AFTER I started this thread. So.... what's the deal? I mean, I know I'm a heretic and all, but he talks to all of you.

 

So.... why isn't he answering, me?

 

My understanding was that it was certain variants of buddhist that had a hell; other variants did not.

 

Just as there are variants of Christianity who do not believe in a literal hell, and there are variants that do. All the major world religions have some form of hell, and every major world religion has its literalists.

 

And all the rest of us have to live the literalists, no matter what religion they come from.

 

Anyway ... back to the topic at hand... where are you Freeday.... I'm waiting.

 

i am sorry i missed it i spent a lot of time on the "what is Time to God" post i made, and also the lengthy disscussion about probability. i am working tonight, will look at it in the morning when i get off.

[Open_Minded]

i am sorry i missed it i spent a lot of time on the "what is Time to God" post i made, and also the lengthy disscussion about probability. i am working tonight, will look at it in the morning when i get off.

 

Thanks Freeday... I look forward to your response.

[Mythra]

Good topic, OM. Jesus-worshippers may not have the free ticket to paradise that they are so proud to proclaim.

 

Here are a few more descriptions of what awaits those who don't acknowledge Allah and his one true prophet; Mohammed:

 

 

Koran 22:19-22:23

Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'

 

Koran 18:28-30

For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.

 

 

Hmm. It appears that Pascal's wager is more like the wheel of fortune (round and round she goes - where she stops nobody knows.....) than the flip of a coin.

[julian]

I didn't know buddhism and hinduism had a hell I thought they believed in reincarnation. who goes to them hells? Damn with all these hells you better be sure you pick the right one but with all four of them choices your likely too choose one that offends the other so you'll go to hell anyway. If their is a hell we are all going including you freeday.

 

Like a lot of things, Hinduism has a "hell", but in a completely different way that you couldn't honestly call it a "hell". Basically, reincarnation happens to everyone unless you become totally enlightened and transcend physical form. However, between lives a lot of a person's karma plays out, so the soul experiences a bunch of emotions and other such things according to what they did prior. In other words, the individual creates what they experience through both their actions and their present spiritual, moral and mental state. In this way, a terrible person will find themselves subject to the insanity they had a part in during life at this time. This is obviously temporary, and the individual will be reincarnated again.

 

So a person experiences consequences for their actions and mindset in a relatively brief period between physical lives. That's a basic explanation.

 

Also, there was a Hindu thinker who taught, IIRC, eternal damnation, but he was clearly influenced by Islam and Christianity. Furthermore, not only was he around very recently (17th or 18th century), but he was very minor and had little to no lasting impact on the Hindu philosophy. In all (and IMO), he is remembered because he was an anomoly and not because he did anything significant.

[willybilly30]

So the verses posted are like a metaphorical way of explaining karma?

[Open_Minded]

So the verses posted are like a metaphorical way of explaining karma?

 

Willy.... I can't speak for the Hindu tradition. But... there are many, many, many Christians who view the concept of "hell" as metaphorical. Most Christians I know view hell this way. I go to a mainstream Lutheran church, and I can honestly say that most people at my church view hell as metaphorical (something we bring upon ourselves during our lives on earth).

 

Many think of hell as a "state of separation from God". But, if one thinks of God as infinite ONENESS LOVE, WISDOM, etc... then "hell" is a METAPHORICAL state of separation from this infinite Oneness, Love, Wisdom, etc.. It is metaphorical, because if God is infinite ONENESS, LOVE, COMPASSION, WISDOM - in reality it is not possible to be physically separated from INFINITE ONENESS

 

Infinite implies IN ALL - THROUGH ALL - BEYOND ALL. We speak of Christ as the Alpha and Omega - the Beginning and the End - so how can there be physical separation from the Alpha and Omega?

 

But.... I still await Freeday's response.... which of the many gates of hell will he enter?

[♦ ficino ♦]

When I was being indoctrinated in Hinduistic beliefs and Vedanta as a kid, I was taught that evildoers go to places of punishment between incarnations in order to work out their evil karma, or some of it. This doesn't exclude their being reincarnated later.

[freeday]

i am sorry i missed it i spent a lot of time on the "what is Time to God" post i made, and also the lengthy disscussion about probability. i am working tonight, will look at it in the morning when i get off.

 

Thanks Freeday... I look forward to your response.

 

it is obvious to which hell i believe in. although i appriciate you posting what other religions believed too. the best description of hell i have ever seen was on the movie of "event horizon." if you watched it then you know what i mean, if you haven't seen it, i would suggest watching it for halloween one year.

 

now onto the question at hand, but first i would like to be very forthcoming and honnest with you. you are asking me a question, knowing full well i can not give you a clear cut answer. i feel sure the only reason you are asking me this, is to make me look incompitent. (which my typing skills probably do anyway)

 

i understand that my beginning on this site was a little harsh, but you must understand that you were brought into the middle of a debate me and my buddy have been having for a long time now. i would never grab a megaphone and start screaming to people i don't know "turn or burn." i ussally befriend people first, establish a trust and then probe there thoughts on religion. so i can understand your hostility towards me. with that being said i hope you and a couple of the others (nick) can tone down the hostility towards me.

 

i once asked my buddy who is in seminary the same question too. and did not get a clear cut answer, i actually don't remember what he said. but i would like to rephrase it to a little more broader sense. when it comes to Gods judgement, will he judge you on ignorance? (not knowing because you have never been told). in the KJV of the bible the word Mercy is written 149 times. psalms 36:5 "thy mercy, o lord, is in the heavens." his mercy is very exalted: to the very heavens, as hish as the highest object of which man can conceive. The idea is not that the mercy of God is manifested in heaven; nor that it has its origin in heaven, but that it is of the most exalted nature. It is as high as men can conceive. now onto righteousness which is written 128 times. "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains" psalms 36:6. mountains are stable, steadfast, immovable, and thoroughly dependable. God can always be depended on to do the thing that is right. these two words describe God very well, with that said i trust his righteous and mercifull judgement.

 

i want you to know how hard that was to answer for you, i sat here for 2 hours contemplating and praying on how to give you an answer. just so you know, i do not have a degree in theology, i am your ordinary joe christian. i have been up for close to 19 hours now, if there are type-o's i appologize. good night.

[Checkmate]

i am sorry i missed it i spent a lot of time on the "what is Time to God" post i made, and also the lengthy disscussion about probability. i am working tonight, will look at it in the morning when i get off.

 

Thanks Freeday... I look forward to your response.

 

..........knowing full well i can not give you a clear cut answer..............

 

.......i once asked my buddy who is in seminary the same question too. and did not get a clear cut answer,...........

 

......i want you to know how hard that was to answer for you, i sat here for 2 hours contemplating and praying on how to give you an answer. just so you know, i do not have a degree in theology, i am your ordinary joe christian. i have been up for close to 19 hours now, if there are type-o's i appologize. good night.

You have GOT to be kidding me?!? "Can't give a clear cut answer"??? The question was, "Which hell do you believe in?" You're a "Christian" aren't you, freeday? Doesn't that kind of limit and outline WHICH hell you believe in? Why do you require a degree in theology? It's right THERE in your Bible®! Written so CHILDREN can understand it, right? Just have some nads and read it and believe it!!!

 

Good fucking grief, Charlie Brown! I am SO fucking tired of Christians who refuse to answer a simple question BECAUSE it paints them into a corner they KNOW they don't want to be in.

 

Freeday, just ADMIT that your literalist understanding of the Bible causes you pain! ADMIT IT! The idea of your "loving god" behaving NO DIFFERENTLY than the Muslim's Allah is offensive to you. ADMIT IT!

 

It was "hard to answer" because you were seeking some spiritual escape hatch to dodge the issue and you found that there was none.

 

Fuck!

[julian]

So the verses posted are like a metaphorical way of explaining karma?

 

Yes, in a way. At the very most, it is describing what a soul temporarily undergoes if it has been the doer of bad things in past lives. In addition, I do think the passage could quite easily be metaphorical, but even if it isn't, the "hell" it depicts is both temporary and very clearly unlike the Abrahamic hell for many reasons (for example, it isn't a place, it's a temporary state of being brought on by one's actions and morality).

[Antlerman]

now onto righteousness which is written 128 times. "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains" psalms 36:6. mountains are stable, steadfast, immovable, and thoroughly dependable. God can always be depended on to do the thing that is right. these two words describe God very well, with that said i trust his righteous and mercifull judgement.

I will give you a more serious response later, but had to run with this 'cause it struck me as humorous.

 

I hope the stable, steadfast, immovable, and thoroughly dependable mountains do not include:

 

* Mount Pinatubo

* Mount Vesuvius

* Mount St Helens

 

 

Additionally, non-volcanic mountain ranges can be unstable, dropping mudslides, avalanches, flood waters, etc. The only thing dependable about them is their inherent danger!!

 

This is not a good analogy for God, unless you mean for people to distrust him. Then again, many understand that Jehovah's origins were as a volcano god, and in this sense the psalmist may mean that God's righteosness is like a destuctive volcano?

 

 

[Open_Minded]

it is obvious to which hell i believe in. although i appriciate you posting what other religions believed too. .....

 

now onto the question at hand, but first i would like to be very forthcoming and honnest with you. you are asking me a question, knowing full well i can not give you a clear cut answer. i feel sure the only reason you are asking me this, is to make me look incompitent. (which my typing skills probably do anyway)

 

First things first - Yes .... I did ask you … which hell will you fry in for not believing the absolute truth from the correct innerant scripture? .... "knowing full well" that you could not give a clear cut answer.

 

But.. NO I did not do it to make you look incompitent. I did it to MAKE YOU THINK. And obviously - if you felt the need to sit for 2 hours contemplating and praying on how to give me an answer - then I accomplished my mission. You thought about the theology that you've been taught. You didn't accept it wholesale.

 

Believe it - or not - Freeday I feel compassion for you. I cannot imagine the pain one must feel if one believes in a literal hell. It must be terribly painful to think that people you love will fry in hell for eternity. So, no - I am not angry with you. I don't resent you. It is not my goal to make you look, or feel incompitent. It is my goal to give you cause for THINKING THROUGH THAT WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT. If the side effect of that is internal pain and questioning - that is actually a good thing. It means you are searching for deeper answers than the ones which have been spoonfed to you by a literalist culture.

 

So ... with compassion and sincerity .... I mean it when I say, "Congratulations - the two hours you spent contemplating and praying about this questions were two hours well spent".

 

i would never grab a megaphone and start screaming to people i don't know "turn or burn." i ussally befriend people first, establish a trust and then probe there thoughts on religion. so i can understand your hostility towards me. with that being said i hope you and a couple of the others (nick) can tone down the hostility towards me.

 

As I said, Freeday, there is no hostility on my part. When I bold questions and put them in red - I am trying to get your attention - that is all. Don't ignore the tough questions in life - take them head on Freeday and you will grow.

 

i once asked my buddy who is in seminary the same question too. and did not get a clear cut answer, i actually don't remember what he said. but i would like to rephrase it to a little more broader sense. when it comes to Gods judgement, will he judge you on ignorance? (not knowing because you have never been told). in the KJV of the bible the word Mercy is written 149 times. psalms 36:5 "thy mercy, o lord, is in the heavens." his mercy is very exalted: to the very heavens, as hish as the highest object of which man can conceive. The idea is not that the mercy of God is manifested in heaven; nor that it has its origin in heaven, but that it is of the most exalted nature. It is as high as men can conceive. now onto righteousness which is written 128 times. "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains" psalms 36:6. mountains are stable, steadfast, immovable, and thoroughly dependable. God can always be depended on to do the thing that is right. these two words describe God very well, with that said i trust his righteous and mercifull judgement.

 

With all due respect Freeday, your seminary buddy's response sounds like a lot of theological BS to me. I'm Christian - and I consider it BS.

 

Let's get right down to nuts and bolts shall we?

 

The original question was … which hell will you fry in for not believing the absolute truth from the correct innerant scripture?

 

Now - let's look at things from another perspective. How do you know the Christian scriptures are the TRUE scriptures? How do you know that the scriptures of Islam aren't really the TRUE and authoritave word of God - they say they are. Actually - for that matter - how do you know the Hindu Scriptures or the sacred literature of the Buddhist tradition aren't the ONLY TRUE AND AUTHORITATIVE WORD OF GOD?

 

If any one of those major world religions has a corner on the truth, then your goose is cooked Freeday. You will fry in their hell. And you know this. You know how totally irrational this all is.

 

You know wars have been fought over these very issues. You were alive and saw the twin towers crumble into dust taking 1000s of lives with them - all because some literalist extremists from the Islam tradition decided it was their moral duty to kill the infidels.

 

And knowing all this - you are still clinging to a literalist view of Christianity. Still clinging to something so destructive - that you must deal with the internal pain of believing that people you love will go to hell.

 

You know what Freeday - you don't have to choose a hell. You're already in a metaphorical hell - and I do feel compassion for that. Whether you believe it or not, I do.

 

just so you know, i do not have a degree in theology, i am your ordinary joe christian. i have been up for close to 19 hours now, if there are type-o's i appologize. good night.

 

Just so you know, I don't have a degree in theology, either. One does not need a theology degree to think for oneself, Freeday.

 

 

One other thing ... Mr. Grinch and I agree on a lot of things. He comes across more hard-hitting than I do.

 

But with the following I'm in total agreement:

 

Freeday, just ADMIT that your literalist understanding of the Bible causes you pain! ADMIT IT! The idea of your "loving god" behaving NO DIFFERENTLY than the Muslim's Allah is offensive to you. ADMIT IT!

 

It was "hard to answer" because you were seeking some spiritual escape hatch to dodge the issue and you found that there was none.

 

Freeday... just think ... as painful as it is - if you truly want to be "Free" than THINK.

 

How is the picture of God you've been taught any different than the picture of Allah that the 9/11 highjacker's had? How - in the end - both understandings of God would fry people in hell - how can you reconcile that with an INFINITE GOD OF LOVE?

[willybilly30]

So the verses posted are like a metaphorical way of explaining karma?

 

Willy.... I can't speak for the Hindu tradition. But... there are many, many, many Christians who view the concept of "hell" as metaphorical. Most Christians I know view hell this way. I go to a mainstream Lutheran church, and I can honestly say that most people at my church view hell as metaphorical (something we bring upon ourselves during our lives on earth).

 

Many think of hell as a "state of separation from God". But, if one thinks of God as infinite ONENESS LOVE, WISDOM, etc... then "hell" is a METAPHORICAL state of separation from this infinite Oneness, Love, Wisdom, etc.. It is metaphorical, because if God is infinite ONENESS, LOVE, COMPASSION, WISDOM - in reality it is not possible to be physically separated from INFINITE ONENESS

 

Infinite implies IN ALL - THROUGH ALL - BEYOND ALL. We speak of Christ as the Alpha and Omega - the Beginning and the End - so how can there be physical separation from the Alpha and Omega?

 

But.... I still await Freeday's response.... which of the many gates of hell will he enter?

So if it is impossible to be seperate from god why bother with religion? If everyone is one with god then to me that makes preachers, churches and things like that unnessesary.

[Checkmate]

...........

One other thing ... Mr. Grinch and I agree on a lot of things. He comes across more hard-hitting than I do.

Oh stop it, you! You're making me blush.

 

Y'know something? If people like freeday and Amy Marie would simply take a few pages from YOU, Open_Minded, and become a more balanced/reasonable Christian, then people like ME would have little to complain about. They don't HAVE to become apostates, atheists or agnostics, like the rest of us. Just stop being fundy loons. It's FUNDAMENTALISM and LITERALISM that is the problem, and not any specific religion/myth.

[willybilly30]

So the verses posted are like a metaphorical way of explaining karma?

 

Yes, in a way. At the very most, it is describing what a soul temporarily undergoes if it has been the doer of bad things in past lives. In addition, I do think the passage could quite easily be metaphorical, but even if it isn't, the "hell" it depicts is both temporary and very clearly unlike the Abrahamic hell for many reasons (for example, it isn't a place, it's a temporary state of being brought on by one's actions and morality).

Atleast its temporary and sounds more like a learning experiance. That makes more sense than abrahamic hell were you burn forever with no second chance or anything.