Impossibilities

[Mythra]

When you were entrenched in religion, how many of you spent time thinking about the wonderful miracles in the bible, and wondered why God suspended them after Jesus? Surely if God wanted all people to come to repentence and salvation, the continuous demonstration of bona fide miracles would have been helpful to His cause.

 

Of course, the explanation that miracles ceased after Jesus' time is an unsatisfying answer that can only resolve things in the minds of the unquestioning religious masses. Those who's faith has formed an impenetrable wall between them and reason.

 

The real answer is that miracles were never suspended. Life has always followed natural laws. Always. The impossibilities in the bible never happened. Period.

 

I'm not talking about improbabilities. I'm speaking of things which cannot happen. Irreversibly dead things (from human beings to dandelions) do not re-animate. Ever. Never have, never will. Anyone with an inkling of rational thought knows this. People do not magically fly into the sky. Never have, never will. The earth cannot suddenly cease to spin and then magically start up again.

 

It's silly thinking about it actually. Sillier still that grown up men and women lay their grown up minds on the shelf and cling to the claim that these things actually happened.

 

I tend to follow the teaching of Saul-Paul of Tarsus (or whoever actually wrote it) in this regard:

 

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

 

The bible is a book for naive, gullible minds.

[Mad_Gerbil]

When you were entrenched in religion, how many of you spent time thinking about the wonderful miracles in the bible, and wondered why God suspended them after Jesus? Surely if God wanted all people to come to repentence and salvation, the continuous demonstration of bona fide miracles would have been helpful to His cause.

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

From the Old Testament right on thru to the New Testament the Bible is not only a record of miracles, but a record of miracles that people denied even after witnessing them. Now obviously you don't take the Bible as credible and I respect that; however, it is clear that from the Biblical perspective that the ability of humans to deny empirical demonstrations of God's power is virtually unlimited. Given that, there is little point in having magic shows as the cornerstone of the Christian faith.

 

Don't the skeptics here see this in every day life?

 

How clear and obvious is evolution to you? Don't you believe that the evidence for naturalistic evolution simply permeates everything? Despite the overwhelming evidence there are lots of people who don't believe evolution is the truth. It isn't only the testimony of Scripture that something as obvious as a miracle doesn't move the unbeliever, it is evidenced today by people's denial of the fact of evolution.

 

I think the question "Why doesn't God do more magic tricks?" isn't really that good of a question. I think the more insightful question would be "Given humanity's ability to deny the obvious at every turn what would be the point of any miracles whatsoever?".

 

The ability of the human mind to deny repeated demonstrations of any sort is extraordinary.

[Grandpa Harley]

Not exactly a good argument, but one can expect no more from someone who believes that sort of thing...

 

Any one taking bets on how long it takes for the rodent to use even more circular logic?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Not exactly a good argument, but one can expect no more from someone who believes that sort of thing...

 

Any one taking bets on how long it takes for the rodent to use even more circular logic?

 

Circular argument?

My only assertion is that people are going to believe whatever they want to believe, despite the evidence.

I should think such an assertion would be quite safe here.

I'll offer myself as Exhibit A.

[Grandpa Harley]

So, why the belief in the bible? Why is it more correct than any other holy book before or since?

 

You'd already done one implied loop since the whole Bible correctness-God thing is an Oborobous deal where the whole thing becomes a long, lazy loop of special pleading, and dependent story telling.

[Grandpa Harley]

and as Exhibit A... self reference is circular

[Mythra]

I think the question "Why doesn't God do more magic tricks?" isn't really that good of a question. I think the more insightful question would be "Given humanity's ability to deny the obvious at every turn what would be the point of any miracles whatsoever?".

 

So, let me get this straight. You see Jesus' walking on water, raising of Lazarus, and his resurrection as magic tricks.

 

Why do them at all then?

 

Bottom line, they never happened. Except in a literary sense.

 

Christians roll their eyes and scoff at the reported miracles of Pythagoras, Appollonius, or even Joseph Smith. They know they never actually happened.

 

Those same eyes gloss over and robotically claim allegiance to the miracles written about in the stories compiled in the bible.

[Mad_Gerbil]

and as Exhibit A... self reference is circular

 

Well pOOp, this isn't any fun.

 

Its just a continuation of a line of thought that some infidel spawned in my sometime ago.

I began to ask myself if miracles would really make that much difference.

I compare that with the ability of people to deny the empirically obvious and the answer for me becomes an obvious "No".

Obviously that isn't true for all individuals.

[white_raven23]

Now obviously you don't take the Bible as credible and I respect that; however, it is clear that from the Biblical perspective that the ability of humans to deny empirical demonstrations of God's power is virtually unlimited.

 

Ah yes... what wonderful evidence. So you are telling us that within a story, story characters disbelieved events happening within the story as part of the story? Wow. That's great. A story that emulates people acting as people do. Why....gee....that must make the story something more than a story then.....it must make it a "historical record"!!

 

Holy shit! That means the political denial of the return of Voldemort by Minister of Magic Cornelius Fudge...seeing as it's another example of human frailty and denial within a story...holy crap! Harry Potter must be real then! Wow!!

 

And isn't it amazing that within the Bible story God condescended to such magic tricks to coerce the populace? How silly. Such a good thing that "there is little point in having magic shows as the cornerstone of the Christian faith." Especially when the christian faith itself hinges on the belief a guy rose from the dead after three days.

 

Or perhaps you believe the Jesus character was in a coma and his resurrection was by interpretation of medically ignorant people? Yay! Then the cornerstone of christianity is a revived coma patient!

 

How do you talk out both sides of your mouth like that? To be a christian, you have to believe in the resurrection of the Jesus character. A miracle. Yet you claim that magic shows are not the cornerstone of the christian faith. You associate miracles with magic shows. So you don't believe in magic shows....but you are a christian....so you have to believe in the Jesus "miracle".

 

Doesn't this belief opposition within the same cranium give you a headache? It must, unless you cherry-pick your miracles.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Christians roll their eyes and scoff at the reported miracles of Pythagoras, Appollonius, or even Joseph Smith. They know they never actually happened.

 

Those same eyes gloss over and robotically claim allegiance to the miracles written about in the stories compiled in the bible.

 

I don't roll my eyes at the reported miracles of other religions.

Maybe something did happen, maybe it didn't.

I wasn't there so I've no way of knowing for sure.

 

Do you know for sure?

Your OP sounded like maybe you did know for sure.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Holy shit! That means the political denial of the return of Voldemort by Minister of Magic Cornelius Fudge...seeing as it's another example of human frailty and denial within a story...holy crap! Harry Potter must be real then! Wow!!

 

It wasn't my claim that the believeable aspects of the story made the entire story true.

If you read the rest of the post, instead of skimming it for material to mock, you'll see that I further back up my claim that people have an uncanny ability to deny evidence by citing evolution. I took pains to back up my assertion by appealing to your own world view.

 

If you'd like to join us in the discussion about the extraordinary ability of humanity to deny the obvious, feel free.

 

[Grandpa Harley]

Who's OP?

 

and no, there's no way of knowing for sure, however, the burden of likely hood rests where?

[Grandpa Harley]

Holy shit! That means the political denial of the return of Voldemort by Minister of Magic Cornelius Fudge...seeing as it's another example of human frailty and denial within a story...holy crap! Harry Potter must be real then! Wow!!

 

It wasn't my claim that the believeable aspects of the story made the entire story true.

If you read the rest of the post, instead of skimming it for material to mock, you'll see that I further back up my claim that people have an uncanny ability to deny evidence by citing evolution. I took pains to back up my assertion by appealing to your own world view.

 

If you'd like to join us in the discussion about the extraordinary ability of humanity to deny the obvious, feel free.

 

 

So how old is the earth and why do hold the position you do on the bible story?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Who's OP?

 

and no, there's no way of knowing for sure, however, the burden of likely hood rests where?

 

The burden of proof rests squarely on the shoulders of the one making the truth claim.

My truth claim is that humanity is incredibly adept at denying the empirical.

 

1: I made one literary reference. (Biblical)

2: I made one reference to what you witness on a daily basis here.

3: I offered myself as Exhibit A (although circular, it's a damn good looking circular argument)

 

I guess we could keep talking about nonesense like "Why doesn't God do more miracles?".

If you want me to field that one we could all join hands and join in a collective hallucination wherein I throw out a bunch of hogwash and pretend that I'm so knowledgeable about God's motivations that I'm capable of giving you a definitive answer. You've all seen that shtick before - maybe you guys are just really into reruns?

 

As for me, I'd rather make a collective effort at learning by considering different facets of the question.

[Mythra]

Do you know for sure?Your OP sounded like maybe you did know for sure.

 

Yes. I do know for sure. That is my whole point.

 

Things that are impossible are impossible.

 

They never happened. Because they are not possible.

 

Of course, in this day and age, miracles happen all the time. Someone gets better after an illness. Or survives a car crash. Or gets a job.

These are the mundane everyday fortunes that christians today have to resort to for their "miracle" testimonies.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Things that are impossible are impossible.

 

It's pretty tough to argue with that reasoning.

[Mythra]

It's pretty tough to argue with that reasoning.

 

Well of course. No need for a long, philosophical discourse.

 

Things that cannot happen, do not happen. And never have happened. Because they cannot.

 

simple.

[white_raven23]

If you'd like to join us in the discussion about the extraordinary ability of humanity to deny the obvious, feel free.

 

 

Join us? Us?

 

I'm sorry...but Mythra is the OP and the thread creator....and his topic was the reason we don't see "miracles" as depicted in the bible, is because the miracles decribed were impossible.

 

The only way his original post references the human ability to deny the obvious is in the sense that people believe the bible despite the events depicted being completely impossible.

 

YOU described the bible as a "record". Not a story....but a "record". So I can choose to address your implication of the "factual" nature of the book all I like. You are not the thread police. And I don't hear Mythra complaining at all.

 

Nor do you address the duality I addressed in your comparison of miracles to magic tricks. Did you perhaps forget that at least one of those "magic tricks" had to be believed in order to hold the belief system you claim to hold?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Join us? Us?

 

I'm sorry...but Mythra is the OP and the thread creator....and his topic was the reason we don't see "miracles" as depicted in the bible, is because the miracles decribed were impossible.

 

You know, you are quite right to point this out.

It is Mythra's thread - I was hoping to take it in a direction that intersted me and that was wrong.

I'll start a new thread.

 

Thanks for your candor.

 

-Meh Gerbil

[Grandpa Harley]

As you said... we're no fun.

[Ouroboros]

The ability of the human mind to deny repeated demonstrations of any sort is extraordinary.

What was good for Thomas would be good for me, or was he a lesser believer than I was? I used to believe for 30 years without any miracles, and Paul he had to have a flash of light during his seizure, and the apostles had to see miracles for 3 years+, so was I a better believer than them? And now, God can't do it to bring me back?

 

Are you really saying that the Church was built on miracle-hungry-doubters that even after seeing the miracles they wouldn't believe... and yet they started churches? Wait... they did start churches out of belief, doesn't it mean that the miracles did work after all? So if someone is an extreme skeptic, miracles can sometimes make them believers, and how does you know or God know if I would be convinced by a miracle or not? I guess God knows that I'm a hardcore skeptic now. He should know, since he made me that way.

 

But then again, the people that see miracles day out and day in usually are uneducated, low income, and desperate people that could believe anything you would throw at them, and that is God's answer? Give unbelievable miracles to those who don't need it, and don't give it to those who need it? Weird God you have. He's full of internat conflicts and turmoil. No wonder his followers' brains are such a mess...

[Mad_Gerbil]

The ability of the human mind to deny repeated demonstrations of any sort is extraordinary.

What was good for Thomas would be good for me, or was he a lesser believer than I was? I used to believe for 30 years without any miracles, and Paul he had to have a flash of light during his seizure, and the apostles had to see miracles for 3 years+, so was I a better believer than them? And now, God can't do it to bring me back?

 

Are you really saying that the Church was built on miracle-hungry-doubters that even after seeing the miracles they wouldn't believe... and yet they started churches? Wait... they did start churches out of belief, doesn't it mean that the miracles did work after all? So if someone is an extreme skeptic, miracles can sometimes make them believers, and how does you know or God know if I would be convinced by a miracle or not? I guess God knows that I'm a hardcore skeptic now. He should know, since he made me that way.

 

But then again, the people that see miracles day out and day in usually are uneducated, low income, and desperate people that could believe anything you would throw at them, and that is God's answer? Give unbelievable miracles to those who don't need it, and don't give it to those who need it? Weird God you have. He's full of internat conflicts and turmoil. No wonder his followers' brains are such a mess...

 

Hans,

You bring good material to the table.

Please feel free to contribute in the thread I started.

I don't want to derail Mythra's thread any further.

 

-Mad Gerbil

[Ouroboros]

Hans,

You bring good material to the table.

Please feel free to contribute in the thread I started.

I don't want to derail Mythra's thread any further.

 

-Mad Gerbil

And so I did.

 

You've been away for a while? Felt lonely and needed some apostates to argue with?

[Amanda]

<snip>

I tend to follow the teaching of Saul-Paul of Tarsus (or whoever actually wrote it) in this regard:

 

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

 

The bible is a book for naive, gullible minds.

 

Mythra, is it? Or do the naive and gullible interpret it that way? I can't believe how much I believed of it before coming here, and I thought I was a critical thinker. You are the one who opened my eyes to the tremendous influence of other mythologies interjected, however I think that ancient projection has not stopped, and additionally there is the more recent continual spin on these stories. Watching a documentary on the painter Raphael the other day, it said he had a commitment in his work to bring the church up to the highest level in the land. I've seen that another painter also wanted to dramatize these stories in such a way that created the highest perception of divinity. Debating HanSolo in the past, I saw where even the book asked when people were going to realize that those Jewish stories in the OT were just fables. (Titus 1:14) I'm curious to know if it is the book, or is it the hijackers who have caused the havoc?

[R. S. Martin]

Mythra, thank you for raising this question. It allows me to think through some major issues I spent much time thinking about and never had anyone to talk to because the questions themselves were taboo. Well, I'm not sure if I thought about them consciously because thinking about taboo topics would have been taboo. But sometimes there are tennis balls just beneath the surface.

 

When you were entrenched in religion, how many of you spent time thinking about the wonderful miracles in the bible, and wondered why God suspended them after Jesus?

 

This in and of itself raises a major item. 1. A child obligated to raise her siblings under the iron rule of her parents could use so many miracles if only God would see fit to perform them. Why can't he do it now if he could back then? 2. On the other hand, does God even exist? How can we know for sure? In order to perform miracles he has to exist. It's best to just believe. 3. If I oblige God and believe in him, why won't he oblige me and just perform a few miracles and make life a bit easier? How can he be so cruel as to suspend miracles now? 4. On the other hand, if there are no miracles now, were there really any miracles ever? But it's not okay to think this way....And I'm quite sure I never allowed any of this to become conscious because I tried very hard to be a good Christian girl.

 

Surely if God wanted all people to come to repentence and salvation, the continuous demonstration of bona fide miracles would have been helpful to His cause.

 

Of course, the explanation that miracles ceased after Jesus' time is an unsatisfying answer that can only resolve things in the minds of the unquestioning religious masses. Those who's faith has formed an impenetrable wall between them and reason.

 

Their faith has formed an impenetrable wall between their precious selves and me. My questions don't matter, don't count. They hate me because I want to be honest and understand the things I am supposed to belief. It is so unfair to be punished for being unable to believe things that don't make sense. I am punished if I am impatient with my sister who has difficulty reading but I am hated for having difficulty understanding the religious things. No one has patience with my difficulties. When I complain that this is unfair I am punished for complaining.

 

That was long ago when I was about twelve years old. Now I'm all grown up. I've done much research and I have concluded that there are no answers for my questions. I have resolved that I will no longer lie about sacred things like God. Since there is no evidence for God's existence I will no longer profess to believe in God. For this I am severely punished.

 

I guess that is why they built such an impenetrable wall between themselves and me; they hoped they could keep me from thinking about these things and that I would just believe what they said I should if they didn't encourage my questions. Now that they see that this didn't work, they have cut me off. They cannot risk seeing the Light of Truth for themselves. They do profess to have the Truth.

 

I have never seen a link between miracles and repentance. I thought the miracles were meant to prove that Jesus was God's Son, the very Christ. I thought the miracles of the OT were simply performed to help God's People out of their desperate need of the moment. In thinking about it now, they seem a great deal like the magic in the secular fairy tales I read as a child.

 

The real answer is that miracles were never suspended. Life has always followed natural laws. Always. The impossibilities in the bible never happened. Period.

 

You know, it's really therapeutic to hear someone say this out loud. Or type it in black and white. Just see the ghosts scurry into the shadows.

 

I'm not talking about improbabilities. I'm speaking of things which cannot happen. Irreversibly dead things (from human beings to dandelions) do not re-animate. Ever. Never have, never will.

 

Even the most religious people know this when it comes to their own lives. I grew up on the farm where life and death of animals and plants was an everyday occurance. Now-a-days barns are built better but when I was a child our barn got pretty cold in winter. Dad would somtimes bring a half-frozen new-born baby animal into the house to unthaw. Baby pigs or lambs sometimes revived on our kitchen floor near the woodstove or in the open oven. I think he even brought in a calf on one occasion. The animal would be on an empty feedbag with some straw--never mind the smell. There was money invested in this smelly itsy-bitsy thingy on the floor.

 

He would rub it to stimulate circulation. There was nothing to indicate whether there was life or not. All he could do was nurture it and wait to see what would happen. If, after a long time, it began stirring to life, we children might think a miracle had happened like at Jesus' resurrection. But my parents would assure us that such things didn't happen today. If we objected that it was dead when Dad brought it in, Mom would explain, that "it never was dead--it just appeared to be dead." I seem to faintly remember that this actually happened. So I learned about life and death.

 

Anyone with an inkling of rational thought knows this. People do not magically fly into the sky. Never have, never will. The earth cannot suddenly cease to spin and then magically start up again.

 

It's silly thinking about it actually. Sillier still that grown up men and women lay their grown up minds on the shelf and cling to the claim that these things actually happened.

 

The last little while when I still identified as a Christian I went to a church where some fairly highly educated people also attended. One of these was a retired sociology professor. He loved to be part of plays in acting out bible stories. He was really into this stuff. Because of his academic training I assume he understood something of aboriginal or "primitive" religion. He personally had served in an Amazon tribal mission at one point in his life so he pretty much had to know something in this line.

 

I was really into anthropology of religion at that point. I never took roles in any of the plays. I had not grown up with this sort of thing and it bordered on blasphemy in my opinion. However, I watched him--and everyone else--with the eyes of an anthropologist. Watching this retired sociology professor at a modern Mennonite Church perform as a chief priest condemning Jesus was, for me, a real-life lesson in anthropology of religion.

 

These people were the "real thing"--they were exactly like the Pacific Islanders I had watched in a movie my anthropology prof had shown the class. They believed that what they were performing actually was real, that it had happened much like they were telling the story, and that they had benefitted from it in a real, tangible way--exactly like the Pacific Islanders believed about their religious ceremonies that they re-enacted.

 

The Christians and the Aboriginals all believed with equal fervency and with equal legitimacy in their respective religious stories. They were equally unbelievable and equally impossible. Thanks again for giving me a venue in which to discuss this topic.