Mythra Posted September 24, 2007 Author Share Posted September 24, 2007 On the other hand, if there are no miracles now, were there really any miracles ever? But it's not okay to think this way....And I'm quite sure I never allowed any of this to become conscious because I tried very hard to be a good Christian girl. EXACTLY, RubySera. Thanks for speaking the truth here. This is the same intellectual dishonesty (or at least repressed self-honesty) that all of us practiced when we were in the religion. Take, for instance, the following passage in the book of matthew: At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. HOW MANY of us read that passage and had a still, small voice that whispered - this did not really happen. No way. This event was made up by the writer to sensationalize Jesus' death. And if THIS event was made up, then WHAT ELSE was made up? And then we QUICKLY buried the thought. It must be SATAN trying to put doubt into our mind. The slippery slope to unbelief!!!! NO. STOP. Oh please. Forgive me Jesus for doubting. Forgive me Jesus for thinking this horrid thought. And so went the self-deception and psychological self-induced mind game called religious life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Mythra, Sorry to see your thread so badly derailed. Hopefully more people will respond to your open question. My approach to xtianity was more towards this... At 17 I met people who convinced me that my former understanding of religion was wrong. (Catholicism which I rejected at an early age and pretty much dismissed out of hand.) They convinced me that within xtianity a la Baptist cum Pentecostal varieties was where I would find the well of life, the source, the vine. This is important because this was my fundamental desire and motivation. Xtianity was therfore not an intelectual issue but a moral and spirtual one. In other words, if I lived as Jesus said and worshiped god, then god in turn would nourish my soul and provide me spiritual drink. So you must understand, to cut off my spirituality you had to convince me that god did not nourish the soul or provide spiritual drink. Now... in order for me to swallow all of that I had to swallow the idea that god did miraculous things. In the mind of a 17 yr old, it is not that hard. After all, most miracles in the bible do not directly contradict a vast body of scientific evidence. Newton's laws are still in order if one accepts that Jesus raised the dead by the power of god. The only "obvious" evidence is the fossil record with which I was familiar. At the time, I thought most of the bible was consistant so when I read Genesis, I was able to find enough leeway in word meaning to believe that there was room for interpretation. So you ask Mythra, did I correlate the diminishing "wow factor" of miracles in the Bible as time passes and even to today. Yes, I did but I didn't consider that an overwhelming issue. Over time however, the mental elevation of the emotional born again experience ebbed and flowed and eventually became something that I was required to keep pumping with major effort required in prayer and bible study. As this "well of life" dried up, things like your observation became a repository of questions that I began to use to evaluate the credibility of my original premise. In other words, when I asked myself "Why am I having such a hard time living in the spirit?" and "Is god really the source of life?" or "Could my fundamentalist leaders be fooling themselves and hence me?"... the many collected observations like yours created a constellation of xtians being self-deceived and hence not credible on the issues of Jesus being the eternal well of life. Rather than turn to fossils, I purused the self-help section of my local book store and found more wisdom and common sense could be found there than in the pulpit or the bible. Dale Carnagie (How to Win Friends and Influence People) made far more sense than the ramblings of Paul. It was a very long and hard fought emotional battle. Here is another one Mythra. Why is it that Jesus talks about a lot of moral issues in plain language but everything after Acts (Paul) is a a mess of complicated and circular (faith vs works) reasoning? Mongo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 On the other hand, if there are no miracles now, were there really any miracles ever? But it's not okay to think this way....And I'm quite sure I never allowed any of this to become conscious because I tried very hard to be a good Christian girl. EXACTLY, RubySera. Thanks for speaking the truth here. This is the same intellectual dishonesty (or at least repressed self-honesty) that all of us practiced when we were in the religion. I know. I just had to say it to get it out of my system. It's so good to be allowed to let out the suppressed stuff here on this forum--even the stuff we never knew was a serious problem for us. And I never realized that having to believe the miracles was a serious problem for me. All the same, this opportunity to express feelings about miracles has felt very therapeutic for me. Take, for instance, the following passage in the book of matthew: At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. HOW MANY of us read that passage and had a still, small voice that whispered - this did not really happen. No way. This event was made up by the writer to sensationalize Jesus' death. And if THIS event was made up, then WHAT ELSE was made up? And then we QUICKLY buried the thought. It must be SATAN trying to put doubt into our mind. The slippery slope to unbelief!!!! NO. STOP. Oh please. Forgive me Jesus for doubting. Forgive me Jesus for thinking this horrid thought. And so went the self-deception and psychological self-induced mind game called religious life. If I remember correctly, I asked my mother about this only once. She shrugged me off with an exasperated, "Oh Ruby..." so I knew not to ask again. She taught me that there were many things in the Bible that we cannot understand. I relegated that one to that category. I did wonder about it at times. It's so far "out there" and I don't remember any sermons on it ever. The preachers would just sort of skip over it or not comment much on it if they did include it in the Good Friday-Easter texts. Because my mother had given me that "category" for "impossible" stuff, I never had that particular struggle with that particular passage. I, of course, with my very vivid imagination, imagined all these resurrected folks walking about the city meeting the real live people. I wondered what the real live people thought--what the dead people looked like to them, whether they knew they were looking at dead people, whether the dead people were alive and could talk, what happened to them after, did they just make a round of the city then go back to their graves or did they live a new life? Did the population of the city double? That kind of thing. I would have probably spooked my mother if I had expressed all these questions so I kept them to myself. Somehow or other I figured God took care of things. I was sure they were all safely dead and buried by now. I had larger theological questions to worry about. I see the title of this thread is "Impossibilities." Well, to me it seemed totally impossible that the death and resurrection of Jesus could open heavens gate or in any way benefit human souls, or pay for human sin. It simply made no sense and seemed absolutely and totally impossible from every logical perspective I could dream up (remember my very vivid imagination so my "dreams" were not exactly narrow and limited) or dig up to read about or stimulate in the brains of either Christian pastors, preachers, or missionaries of various denominations, or in non-religious religious studies profs. On top of that, I discovered that humans are inherently good so there is no sin to pay for! There was a point in my life about ten years before I deconverted where I was saying out loud to carefully selected individuals (my sisters closest in age to me) that there had to be something about the Plan of Salvation that was not in the Bible. At that point I still trusted that The Answer existed. But I had read the Bible. I knew the literature. The answer was not there! At the time I could tell that they didn't understand what I was talking about and basically didn't care, but they did allow me to talk and express my ideas. Today I am the deconvert and reject while they are the faithful Christian believers and will be to the day they die (I assume). What I am saying is that there is more about Christianity that I find impossible than just the miracles. But opening the miracles for discussion was therapeutic. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Take, for instance, the following passage in the book of matthew: At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. HOW MANY of us read that passage and had a still, small voice that whispered - this did not really happen. No way. This event was made up by the writer to sensationalize Jesus' death. And if THIS event was made up, then WHAT ELSE was made up? I wish I could raise my hand...but I can't. I was raised thinking this happened and in school when we "analyzed" these events I believed them that much more. These people came back from the grave looking good as new as far as I was concerned (sorry rotting zombie enthusiasts). They went to friends and family just like Lazarus did and were welcomed with opened arms. A wonderful little family reunion. Oh, there was a little apprehension at first, but many strange things happened that day and the newly undead folks had simple explanations "God, via jesus, rose me up and you'll get this too." Visions of killing "fatted calves" and whatever other types of celebrations came to my mind in these peoples homes. It's kind of silly now but the people I trusted said it was true. Why would they lie? Sadly, it seems, they weren't so much lying but doing what I was doing...trusting people. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Well, some of these people would have been dead for centuries. Entire extended dead families would have risen up. At least, when I think about it logically as an adult, and discount decomposition, that is what I come up with. But when we start doing away with the laws of nature all kinds of wierd things can happen..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 I quite liked the George A Romero edge to it all... nothing like a zombie horde to make one believe in God... Interesting to note that Josepheus doesn't mention any of that, and his father worked in the Temple at the time and they lived in Jerusalem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. When you read this closely, it gets even stranger. AT THE MOMENT of Jesus' death, the tombs broke open, and the dead guys sprang forth. Then, AFTER Jesus' resurrection, they went into the city and appeared to many people. Just what were they doing for the two days in between? Maybe they just sat next to their graves scratching their patchy, rotted scalps and wondering WTF just happened?? Looks like the guy that wrote this nonsense down didn't even think it through before slapping it down on paper. How strange that we swallowed this stuff, afraid to actually examine it critically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Well it's obvious that I rationalized as opposed to analyzed the entire thing but it's only my new perspective that allows me to see that. I would more argue I was indoctrinated and then compartmentalized the whole thing (since I am a skeptic at heart). I mean, you don't question that you're breathing air since it's just there, right? So I never questioned the bible. It just was truth and that was that. Questioning its validity, even the silly stuff, has been extremely difficult for me (even though it might appear otherwise...to learn that basically a whole different version of history took place than what I accepted my whole life is really amazing to me...it is like one of those "parallel universe" scifi stories). Oh, and the reason the people stayed in the tombs for a couple of days was that they had to groom themselves. Wouldn't you? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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