Different Perspective

[Guest end3]

As I think I am able to evaluate my moral status relative to time, I feel, not measured, but feel, my moral development is in decline over the last year or so....i.e. cussing a bit more, more immoral speech among those that don't need to hear such, etc.... I also find it easier to justify my interests and feelings rather than those of the whole. I can acknowledge an adventure of the mind, but don't know if it has gained me much other than a newly hightened hate for the people I disliked before, only now I can justify it. So, do you feel more loving toward society as a whole after deconversion? I am not leaning towards deconversion being something desirable......what I am trying to say is I am personally experiencing no moral gains worthy of making me a better human with a more humanist perspective.

[OpheliaGinger]

My view on society has not changed since my deconversion, but I no longer think that most people are going to be damned.

[Dhampir]

Why is cussing immoral?

[Robbobrob]

As I think I am able to evaluate my moral status relative to time, I feel, not measured, but feel, my moral development is in decline over the last year or so....i.e. cussing a bit more, more immoral speech among those that don't need to hear such, etc.... I also find it easier to justify my interests and feelings rather than those of the whole. I can acknowledge an adventure of the mind, but don't know if it has gained me much other than a newly hightened hate for the people I disliked before, only now I can justify it. So, do you feel more loving toward society as a whole after deconversion? I am not leaning towards deconversion being something desirable......what I am trying to say is I am personally experiencing no moral gains worthy of making me a better human with a more humanist perspective.

 

Moral gains? What does that have to do with anything?

 

Morality is your code of conduct when dealing with others....you need to cultivate that from within....just changing philosophical hats is not going to produce it. You need to WORK AT IT.

 

Humanist prespective puts that burden squarely on your shoulders, as opposed to God/Devil for what you do good or bad. You have no one to blame for your life and how you treat others than yourself.

[Guest end3]

As I think I am able to evaluate my moral status relative to time, I feel, not measured, but feel, my moral development is in decline over the last year or so....i.e. cussing a bit more, more immoral speech among those that don't need to hear such, etc.... I also find it easier to justify my interests and feelings rather than those of the whole. I can acknowledge an adventure of the mind, but don't know if it has gained me much other than a newly hightened hate for the people I disliked before, only now I can justify it. So, do you feel more loving toward society as a whole after deconversion? I am not leaning towards deconversion being something desirable......what I am trying to say is I am personally experiencing no moral gains worthy of making me a better human with a more humanist perspective.

 

Moral gains? What does that have to do with anything?

 

Morality is your code of conduct when dealing with others....you need to cultivate that from within....just changing philosophical hats is not going to produce it. You need to WORK AT IT.

 

Humanist prespective puts that burden squarely on your shoulders, as opposed to God/Devil for what you do good or bad. You have no one to blame for your life and how you treat others than yourself.

 

Good post Rob,

 

I recognize your point, but I, as a self-directed human, don't seem to be directing myself to a moral end. Perhaps it has everything to do with a reminder of some sort....church every Sunday, a periodic reading of something.

[Deva]

So, do you feel more loving toward society as a whole after deconversion? I am not leaning towards deconversion being something desirable......what I am trying to say is I am personally experiencing no moral gains worthy of making me a better human with a more humanist perspective.

 

Why should we feel more loving toward society? Do you think society is moral in this country? Its mostly immoral from what I see. Or, do you mean more loving toward human beings?

 

End, you are being too hard on yourself. A common aftereffect of being Christian. Its not up to me to say that for you deconversion would be desirable. You alone can judge whether or not you are more human or not.

[BlueGiant]

When I left I was finally free to admit something to myself: I am amoral, i.e. without morals.

 

A bit of explanation is in order: I see morals as a code of conduct that originates outside oneself, whereas ethics are a code imposed from within, sort of self-actualized. Moreover, morals are a part of how the world should work, as opposed to how it does (law) or how I work within it (ethics).

 

It occurred to me that should and do are two very separate things, and I tend to prefer to work in the later. In a way I think I have become a better person, because I have chosen the code of conduct I live by, my ethics, on my own and they come from within me, not from a societal construct.

 

Why do you see your behavior as being immoral (or unethical)? Is it coming from you? Or are you being told that it is bad, and believing it?

[ShackledNoMore]

I think that I am "more moral" ONLY in the sense that I am no longer obliged to prescribe to certain assumptions which are harmful, and that's really more a matter of my own well being (and to a degree, the way in which I may advocate others' well being) than it is morality (although it IS more moral to be a better advocate for others' well being).

 

I think of the second class status of gays and women, the support of the war effort, their opposition to potentially beneficial stem cell research, and other matters of most current day evangelicals, the protege of the sort of church I was in in the 70s, and I have to say that I personally think that their stance is less moral, but back then, I never REALLY subscribed to such beliefs that women were subservient to men, gays were unworthy, etc. I skirted those sorts of issues through a combination of mental gymnastics and not really confronting those sorts of questions at the time.

[Neon Genesis]

Didn't you say in an older thread before that you would kill children if God told you to and would rather kill your children than let an atheist raise them? Yeah, you were always a "moral" xtian End3.

[Amethyst]

I personally define morals as whether or not someone is harmed. Does swearing harm anyone? No, but for some reasons Christians fear it. Granted, it's rude behavior and uncalled for in many social situations, but unless you are using swearing to hurt someone's feelings, it's no more immoral than swatting a fly. It's simply one of many ways humans relieve stress. Stubbing one's toe, for instance, creates stress. As a response, most people swear. I don't see how this is any more evil than making a peanut butter sandwich for lunch.

 

If you feel the need to revise your language, try using alternative words to swearing. I have an uncle who says "Oh sugar," for example. My German teacher in high school used to say "Oh Schnitzel" (as in Wiener Schnitzel). And she used to have up a sign that said "Schnitzel happens," it was quite humorous.

 

Or learn to swear in foreign languages if you're afraid you're going to offend someone and you know that person doesn't speak them.

[ShackledNoMore]

Or learn to swear in foreign languages if you're afraid you're going to offend someone and you know that person doesn't speak them.

Once in college, I was having lunch in the cafeteria with a Norwegian friend. He had intimated some Norwegian swear word to me, and I was blithely blurting it out--it was just a funny sound to me. Poor guy was completely appalled and embarrassed for fear that there could be anybody within earshot that spoke Norwegian.

[Ouroboros]

If you feel the need to revise your language, try using alternative words to swearing. I have an uncle who says "Oh sugar," for example. My German teacher in high school used to say "Oh Schnitzel" (as in Wiener Schnitzel). And she used to have up a sign that said "Schnitzel happens," it was quite humorous.

NO WAY! What a coincident. Me and my friend used that in High School. Just for fun. And we also used Dunkel Grün (dark green). And it was our swearwords instead of the regular ones. But the Wiener Schnitzel was used quite often. Hey, maybe I should change my name to that? Mr Dunkel Grün. Got some ring to it.

[The-Captain]

I've gone through varying degrees of apathy, misanthropy, and altruistic good will, before and after my deconversion. So I don't think my moral development, as you put it, was really contingent on my religion or lack there of.

 

I don't know what to say End buddy, its a horrible thing when you feel yourself getting cold and hardened towards others. Guess the only thing to do is try not to go that way. Like Rob said you have to work at it! Its a daily fight to give people the benefit of the doubt, to keep from becoming too cynical to have a little hope. Not that I'm recommending naivete, reason should always dictate our compassion and an accurate understanding of the world can make it easier to empathize with others and know how best to help.

 

Hang in there, and don't give up on being good.

 

P.S.- Swearing ain't a sin. Just in how you direct it I suppose.

[Ouroboros]

I recognize your point, but I, as a self-directed human, don't seem to be directing myself to a moral end. Perhaps it has everything to do with a reminder of some sort....church every Sunday, a periodic reading of something.

It's very possible, that some people have to have religion to stay good, while there are people like us who don't need religion to be good. Since I feel the position of being able to be good on your own, by your own means, and without reinforcement or threats, is a supreme position, I can only say: it sucks to be you.

[Guest end3]

I recognize your point, but I, as a self-directed human, don't seem to be directing myself to a moral end. Perhaps it has everything to do with a reminder of some sort....church every Sunday, a periodic reading of something.

It's very possible, that some people have to have religion to stay good, while there are people like us who don't need religion to be good. Since I feel the position of being able to be good on your own, by your own means, and without reinforcement or threats, is a supreme position, I can only say: it sucks to be you.

 

 

You have no grace friend...

[Ouroboros]

... So, do you feel more loving toward society as a whole after deconversion?

Actually, I had no change in that area. I don't love society more or less than before, and I suspect my fear for society to break down because of evil people is the same too, except I believe it's a different group and for different reasons now.

 

I am not leaning towards deconversion being something desirable......what I am trying to say is I am personally experiencing no moral gains worthy of making me a better human with a more humanist perspective.

That could be true. De-conversion might not be a thing for you at all. You probably need someone threatening you, and whipping you to obedience, to be moral.

 

Think about this End,

 

Kids are playing on the playground. One of them is roughhousing and taking the toys from the other children, and the mom sees it and shouts to him to stop. He stops because he's afraid of mom, and he's been exposed. He's doing a "moral" act by giving the toys back, because his mom told him to.

 

Now, one of the other children does not roughhouse or steal the other kids toys. His mom doesn't look, because she doesn't have to. And the reason is that he knows (by his own reasoning) that there would be violence and a breakdown of structure (turbulence and no peace to play), if he started to steal and fight with the others.

 

Which one have a higher moral sense?

 

And then, think about that most Christians are like the first child. They act moral, only because the Bible and God tell them to. They don't know what real morality or acting correctly really is. They just do what they're told. While people you find in the non-religious groups must follow their own reasoning, and when they act moral, they do it because they know it benefits everyone.

 

And it's unfortunate that it seems from your description of yourself, that you are the first kind of child, the one who has to be told and reminded of what is right, instead of knowing what is right or wrong by your own intellect.

[Ouroboros]

You have no grace friend...

Nope. Because you need to hear the truth, undivided and unchanged. If you don't get it, it's your loss, not mine. Sorry.

[Legion]

End do you really think that you will ever completely purge yourself of ego? Would it be healthy if you did?

[Vigile]

Or learn to swear in foreign languages if you're afraid you're going to offend someone and you know that person doesn't speak them.

Once in college, I was having lunch in the cafeteria with a Norwegian friend. He had intimated some Norwegian swear word to me, and I was blithely blurting it out--it was just a funny sound to me. Poor guy was completely appalled and embarrassed for fear that there could be anybody within earshot that spoke Norwegian.

 

Yeah, I had the same experience with the Italians. They taught me porco Dio, which means God is a pig. It's their worst swear word. I thought it was funny so I used it liberally much to the consternation of my friends who taught it to me. It made their ears hurt while it made my funny bone tickle.

 

I wonder how vafanculo Dio (fuck yourself God) would play out?

 

Here's another one of my own making Blet Bozhe! (fuck god! in Russian)

[Guest end3]

Let's talk truth with END3....kind of like "deep thoughts with Jack Hamby"

 

Grace would put the interests of others before yourself, but since most of you people are so devoid of grace and live for the physical truth, here goes.

 

1) Neon, I never, in my entire life have continually seen an example of a person, regardless of what is explained to them, that does not comprehend the intended meaning..... (of everything). Entering a discussion with you is like making fun of a retarded person. I actually have felt sympathy for you because it really seems as though God gives you nothing. Perhaps you will be in Heaven, because He came to find the lost.

Oh, and BTW, don't bother rearranging my statement into 15 fucked up ways to ask stupid questions!!! Stop now!!!

 

2) White Raven, it would be a nice turn in your life, and for everyone, if you were as pretty on the inside an you are on the out. I hope you don't end up as some childs grandmother....

 

3) Vigile, there are no words to describe your inadaquecies. Good luck in hell.

 

4) Hans, your attempted control of your environment / self is extremely limited and a waste of time....i.e. if you toilet broke today, and you could not go to the store for another, you would be hard pressed to build another...let alone create life....other than that, you seem to be a pretty decent person.

 

5) Hats off to Gramps, Alice, Ms. Deva, LR, Doc.

 

Is this the person I should like to be everyday...it's truthful, it's real. I am my own person. ????

[Ouroboros]

4) Hans, your attempted control of your environment / self is extremely limited and a waste of time....i.e. if you toilet broke today, and you could not go to the store for another, you would be hard pressed to build another...let alone create life....other than that, you seem to be a pretty decent person.

Eh? And? You mean, do I need people around me if I need help? Sure.

 

Understand this though, Grace is also to care for a person. To care for a person sometimes means that you have to tell them how things are, without sugarcoating. If I truly cared for you, I would be trying my best to tell you what I think is the truth and without hiding it. So what do you think I'm doing? Do you want me to soften it up for you, and treat you delicately, or do you want me to treat you as a mature grown-up? Your choice. Maybe you can't handle the truth...

 

Is this the person I should like to be everyday...it's truthful, it's real. I am my own person. ????

Maybe you're an alien... it would explain a lot... (just kidding!)

[Guest end3]

Maybe you can't handle the truth...

 

Maybe you nor I hold the complete truth...

[Ouroboros]

Maybe you can't handle the truth...

 

Maybe you nor I hold the complete truth...

If that is the truth, then you are holding the truth (at least about that).

[chefranden]

As I think I am able to evaluate my moral status relative to time, I feel, not measured, but feel, my moral development is in decline over the last year or so....i.e. cussing a bit more, more immoral speech among those that don't need to hear such, etc.... I also find it easier to justify my interests and feelings rather than those of the whole. I can acknowledge an adventure of the mind, but don't know if it has gained me much other than a newly hightened hate for the people I disliked before, only now I can justify it. So, do you feel more loving toward society as a whole after deconversion? I am not leaning towards deconversion being something desirable......what I am trying to say is I am personally experiencing no moral gains worthy of making me a better human with a more humanist perspective.

 

End, my friend, what you are experiencing is the natural absence of God or gods. It all depends on you -- morals included. That is there are neither fruits nor gifts of the spirit to help you. If it helps, as much as it is possible to know a person on an internet forum, I find you to be an adequately moral person. I would let you babysit my kids and even tell them bible stories if you like. Of course my kids are 26 and 30 now, but you get what I mean.

[Auracle]

Or learn to swear in foreign languages if you're afraid you're going to offend someone and you know that person doesn't speak them.

Once in college, I was having lunch in the cafeteria with a Norwegian friend. He had intimated some Norwegian swear word to me, and I was blithely blurting it out--it was just a funny sound to me. Poor guy was completely appalled and embarrassed for fear that there could be anybody within earshot that spoke Norwegian.

 

Yeah, I had the same experience with the Italians. They taught me porco Dio, which means God is a pig. It's their worst swear word. I thought it was funny so I used it liberally much to the consternation of my friends who taught it to me. It made their ears hurt while it made my funny bone tickle.

 

I wonder how vafanculo Dio (fuck yourself God) would play out?

 

Here's another one of my own making Blet Bozhe! (fuck god! in Russian)

 

How about "God is a dick" in Italian? hehe..