Reach Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 One of the things I struggled with as a Christian was the notion that there was no source from which we could read the words of Satan. Apparently following his rebellion, he was found guilty in God's court of law, without legal representation, without the opportunity to present testimony on his behalf and with no possibility of pardon. On top of that, according to the Bible, Hell and the Lake of Fire were created with him in mind for an eternity of torturous punishment. Essentially, 66 books have been written against the devil but he has been denied the opportunity to answer them. I came to the conclusion that according to these books, God is truly responsible for what happened to all of his creation, yet he is made out to be innocent. The devil has been turned into the scapegoat. Life has taught me a few things and one of them is that, He who has authority is responsible. Why would a just God allow the accused no platform from which to speak? No possibility of pardon? No mercy? God cannot be just. If the story were true, does it seem like the devil ever got a fair trial? I think not. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Essentially, 66 books have been written against the devil but he has been denied the opportunity to answer them. I came to the conclusion that according to these books, God is truly responsible for what happened to all of his creation, yet he is made out to be innocent. The devil has been turned into the scapegoat. What say you? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If Satan was a (or the) scapegoat, then would that not make him a type of Jesus? Just having fun here. I couldn't help myself. "Satan: the old gentleman who provides employment for the clergy." ~ Loren's dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 What say you? I say "true". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 I agree completely. I've always wondered how Satan was able to "rebel" in the first place against an omniscient, omnipotent being. Smells like a set-up to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 As a defective product, it would seem the Old Boy has a legal basis for a suit. But does he have standing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Its obvious gawd intended Satan to rebel becuase he knew Satan would before he was ever created by gawd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Reach What a thought provoking statement. While I don’t think any of my xtian friends will be swayed by it; it does add to my summation that the xtian god lacks the concept of justice. Thanks, IBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 I always wondered: if the devil were perfect, before becoming the devil as it were, how then was it even possible to rebel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 It just proves the whole thing is fiction, and fiction with gaping plot holes at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- AUB - Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 The whole rebelion thing was cooked up by the early xtians so as to amalgimate gnostic god-demon concepts with a jewish "adversary". Originaly the angel that we now call satan was a loyal servant of the jewish god, (see book of Job) who's job was to test us with evil created by god so as to make our choice more significant, and noble when we chose go(o)d. The idea of god having an "evil" servant worried certain "god is Love" types, and the gnostics took it to mean god was evil, so they took the balme for evil away from god and put it onto his servant, so instead of obeying god's orders when he did evil he was "rebeling", this contradicts the idea the angels have to will of their own, and also gods omnisience, but it got god/jesus of the hook, but made his look a crap leader, and heaven less than perfect. Stupid idea really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Im_Stupid Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 What say you? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I say we go to Vatican and demand that Judas Iscariot be made a saint. For you see, Judas is also innocent, he's also a "scapegoat". If Judas did not turn over jesus to the authorities he would not be tried, sentenced and put to death. If he did'nt die there will be no resurrection on the third day (or was it the second ). If there is no resurrection, then the christian's faith is for nothing, .... there will be no salvation. Judas should be heralded as a saint, he should get all the credits and not jesus for he (Judas) is the facilitator of the christian's salvation. Christians should thank and worship Judas for if not for him, they will not have their salvation. Ok did my post makes sense or I'm just really ... umm... Stupid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl-777 Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 One of the things I struggled with as a Christian was the notion that there was no source from which we could read the words of Satan. Apparently following his rebellion, he was found guilty in God's court of law, without legal representation, without the opportunity to present testimony on his behalf and with no possibility of pardon. On top of that, according to the Bible, Hell and the Lake of Fire were created with him in mind for an eternity of torturous punishment. Essentially, 66 books have been written against the devil but he has been denied the opportunity to answer them. I came to the conclusion that according to these books, God is truly responsible for what happened to all of his creation, yet he is made out to be innocent. The devil has been turned into the scapegoat. Life has taught me a few things and one of them is that, He who has authority is responsible. Why would a just God allow the accused no platform from which to speak? No possibility of pardon? No mercy? God cannot be just. If the story were true, does it seem like the devil ever got a fair trial? I think not. What say you? Shaitan was Sumerian deity, demonized by the fundies into "Satan". Lucifer is from Roman Mythology, where he was the son of the dawn Goddess, Aurora. Mixing them together, the prelates manufactured bibledevil. In Job, we read about bibledevil being allowed to fuck over Job's friends and family by biblegod. From that, it would seem like bibledevil couldn't really do anything without biblegod's permission. After reading the idiocy in Job and the violent and disgusting bullshit in the pentateuch (e.g. Numbers 31:17/18), etc., it would appear that biblegod is the one we really need to be saved from.... K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 After reading the idiocy in Job and the violent and disgusting bullshit in the pentateuch (e.g. Numbers 31:17/18), etc., it would appear that biblegod is the one we really need to be saved from.... I have a recurring daydream that there really is a creator of sort, but that it is those who overcome the brainwashing of this sort of nonsense that ultimately get to meet 'him'. Of course, I don't believe that either. Maybe a plot for my my first book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MalaInSe Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 I have a recurring daydream that there really is a creator of sort, but that it is those who overcome the brainwashing of this sort of nonsense that ultimately get to meet 'him'. Of course, I don't believe that either. Maybe a plot for my my first book? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's been done. Check out "The Visitor" by Sheri S. Tepper. I highly recommend most of her books ("Grass" wasn't very good though). I don't believe it either, but its certainly more plausible than the current asserted purpose of Jehovah. Ren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 See what lightin' up those nasty desert weeds gets ya? Talking about seeing ghosties and writing stories... Fast foward a could grands of years, author similar scary stories and call yourself "Steven King"... Think in a few thousand years as some poor schmuck finds the last readable bound copy of "The Stand", what is he gonna think? Carlin is right... n, white man's ghosts cease to scare me a long time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luck Mermaid Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 I can't remember if this was History or Discovery or what, but I do remember seeing a religious Christian episode of something and there some religious dude talking about Judas and how he wasn't a bad guy. He turned Jesus over because he thought - okay he's gone too far, if I just push him into the hands of these guys he'll change his tune and his life will be spared... of course that could be completely confused, but the point is that Judas turned Jeeves in not for silver but to try and help him... also according to this religious dude he said that at the time , it was a practice for a second in command to a war leader who was Hebrew to hang himself if his war leader leader got killed in battle. so it wasn't necessarily out of guilty but a stupid sort of solidarity. I wanted toread the bible and I decided to go from front to back, the New Testament is really bugging me and I really only like the Book of John but the old testament is kind of fun. It's obvious OBVIOUS - before getting into all kinds of crap about not questioning God - that god was immature and vengeful and a murderrous fuckhead. He cast Eve and Adam out of the garden of Eden not actually just because they disobeyed him, but so they wouldn't, having eaten the tree of knowledge , eat the tree of life so they would be LIKE HIM and he wouldn't get to be god anymore - likewise, he realized that humans who worked together could do anything they put their minds to and wouldn't need him, so he set up different languages and made people not want to listen or try to communicate with each other. It is very clear from Genesis that God isn't about being 'good'. Also, good point on Satan Reach. Have you read about the Greek ancient paganism? Of course Dionysus influenced Jesus, but there's also Prometheus who basically gave fire to humankind (almost like some sort of light bringer might ;-) ) and told humankind things they needed to know to improve their lives and not be such victim to the Gods or their sport. How did the Gods react? They hooked him up to a giant boulder on a baking mountaintop and got a vulture to peck open his liver for eternity. The personalities that we take, which you could probably find out more about if you read up on Jung and those who explore his work in their own, are played out on a large scale. The father who is kind and rules by fist and commands the kingdom does not ever want his sons to become themselves - or to usurp his power. Good sons aim to please, and this is rewarded. But rebel sons become satans - and if they do manage to usurp their father's power, they often become their father and repeat the cycle. There are idiot sons, too, a few main archetypes and roles we push ourselves into in this setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles1:2 Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 In the bible the little band of true believers, be they Israelites or Christians, required a "Big Bad" to represent whoever was screwing them over at the time - Egyptians, Assyrians, Philistines, Romans. It's easy and somewhat comforting to attribute failure, misery and abhorrent behaviour to a supernatural bad guy. The problem as you define it, Reach, points up the differences between OT interfering vengeful pro-active God/Gods of heaven who acted like other ancient deities with the ripping and the slashing and the palaces and courts in the sky, and NT non-manifesting invisible faith junkie FatherSonSpirit God who fiddles with people's heart/soul/brains directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Reach, While I have never thought along those exactly lines, I did however come to regard the whole concept of Satan as being paradoxal. Satan is alleged to be a perfect being in the sense of having moral innocence and being spiritually perfect. My question is: if we were originally intended to be created in the image and likeness of God and we couldn't have fallen into a state of disgrace without being tempted by Satan, then who tempted Satan to sin in the first place? Was there another Satan? Another evil being of sorts? If Satan was never tempted, then why do we need to be tempted by a Satan figure? What could possibly have caused Satan to deviate from the path of a innocent, angelic being into the evil, loathesome creature Christians believe he is today? What I realized was that God had to tempt Satan. Christians will tell us that God will test us by allowing Satan to do the tempting but there was no "tempter" in Satan's case. God couldn't have merely tested Satan, without some kind of evil source to tempt him. In the final analysis, we have to conclude that God not only tested Satan but also tempted Satan, however directly or indirectly the temptation was. Thus God is the true source of evil. Even if God put all the necessary ingredients in place, God is still guilty of tempting Satan to sin. God is responsible for Satan's temptation. And the Christian faith has this shortcoming: God is held as one who will not tempt us. Bullshit. Even testing is actually a form of temptation. Even if we are tempted to sin directly by Satan we are being indirectly tempted to sin by God through the act of testing us. It doesn't matter, the end result is the same: God tempts people. It doesn't matter if God directly tempts Satan to sin or indirectly tempts us by having a tempter try to lead us astray. The end result is the same any which way you look at it. Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 If ChristianGod is real and if ChristianGod is the creator, then ChristianGod is the source of all things. If ChristianGod is the source of all things, then ChristianGod is the source of evil. (JewishGod admits as much Isaiah 45:7) In order for Satan to be the source of evil, Satan would have to be a creator. If Satan is a creator then Satan is also God. It do make your head spin, don't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Yep...I remember when I was a beginner christian and just accepted all these theories in the bible. Then, the day came, similar to everyone here...where I realized that if God created everything and said it was all good...then where did the evil come to start with? Whomever is the creator of all created evil too then! Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree.......but if God was so good, then why did he put the tree in the garden in the first place? And why did he even let the talking snake into the garden then? And then he blames Adam and Eve for sinning...and casts them OUT of this garden and curses people forever b/c of it? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! It's crazy, isn't it??? Thanks Reach! Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 My problem is that the belief in satan isn't really substantiated in the bible any way. Some interpret certain passages as refering to satan, while others do not. It all boils down to which tradition you were raised with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAm_Lucifer Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 I am glad you started this thread Reach, and yes I agree with you. I believe that I am not at fault here. It was YHWH all along. I was just following orders. You see, most people forget that we angels do not have the luxury of freewill. Therefore, we cannot go around making decisions of our own like humans. I try to tell that to humans all the time but they do not seem to understand. I did not start any rebellion. I couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 I am glad you started this thread Reach, and yes I agree with you. I believe that I am not at fault here. It was YHWH all along. I was just following orders. You see, most people forget that we angels do not have the luxury of freewill. Therefore, we cannot go around making decisions of our own like humans. I try to tell that to humans all the time but they do not seem to understand. I did not start any rebellion. I couldn't.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, I, for one, think you did, and are doing, a fine job of fulfilling your given assignment, Lucifer/Prometheus/Raven! (I've had asshole bosses too, so I can sympathize.) Here's to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAm_Lucifer Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Well, I, for one, think you did, and are doing, a fine job of fulfilling your given assignment, Lucifer/Prometheus/Raven! (I've had asshole bosses too, so I can sympathize.) Here's to you! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Loren. I'm glad you understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted April 9, 2005 Author Share Posted April 9, 2005 I am glad you started this thread Reach, and yes I agree with you. I believe that I am not at fault here. It was YHWH all along. I was just following orders. You see, most people forget that we angels do not have the luxury of freewill. Therefore, we cannot go around making decisions of our own like humans. I try to tell that to humans all the time but they do not seem to understand. I did not start any rebellion. I couldn't. Lucifer, I think you got a really bad rap! If not, then how did an evil force break through to tempt you and lead you aside? What is the source for that evil? How did evil enter into heaven anyway? Wasn't God minding the doors? I cry, Lucifer is Innocent!!! The responses in this thread have been among the most interesting things I've ever read here. I appreciate the input from one and all. Yes, Chef, this makes one's head spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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