Lokmer Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Lucifer, I think you got a really bad rap! If not, then how did an evil force break through to tempt you and lead you aside? What is the source for that evil? How did evil enter into heaven anyway? Wasn't God minding the doors? I cry, Lucifer is Innocent!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is a story in the Neil Gaiman anthology "Smoke and Mirrors" that makes this exact point. It's a story about how God sets up Lucifer to rebel so that the universe can be more interesting. I didn't recognize it at the time, but it was another one of those pig pushes along the path to deconversion. Coming to grips with God as the source of evil as well as good didn't seem like a big step at the time, but later on realizing that an impersonal god or even a godless universe explained the situation with evil a lot better than a personal God who creates evil and then grieves over it and fights against it. Although the latter construction is archetypally more interesting, and has a lot of pathos (as, indeed, does Lucifer/Satan), it belongs firmly in the domain of man-created gods. Lucifer is a character that merits sympathy, in any true reading of the story. Even if he WAS the true bad guy, he would still merit sympathy, because his role is one of desolation and lonliness due to a rejection suffered because of his sense of justice and love. And, of course, man-created gods have the advantage of being easy to identify with, and impossible to build coherent doctrines around - particularly holdover gods from eras where there wasn't a pervasive logical framework and people were given to more easily believe in gods that were as unpredictable or irrational as nature itself. -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 I cry, Lucifer is Innocent!!! Reach, There is a movement that has already been started in an effort to help The Devil reclaim his rightful place among the holy everlastingness. CLICK HERE TO HELP CLICK HERE FOR UPDATES ON THE PROGRESS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest riker115 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Yeah I'd have to say that I aggree about lucifer being set up to rebel/fall by God. I can't realy say that I feel sorry for lucifer being punished for eternity since he's been given free reign over the earth in many things. You don't think that lucifer is getting his say even though the bible declares him the prince of the power of the air and even the temporary god of this earth? He has all the worlds attention so I wouldn't say that he was tried and sentanced without a say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAm_Lucifer Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Lucifer, I think you got a really bad rap! If not, then how did an evil force break through to tempt you and lead you aside? What is the source for that evil? How did evil enter into heaven anyway? Wasn't God minding the doors? I cry, Lucifer is Innocent!!! The responses in this thread have been among the most interesting things I've ever read here. I appreciate the input from one and all. Yes, Chef, this makes one's head spin. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You see Reach. God's hand was behind all of this but nor you or I can understand the actions of god because his perfect immortal mind cannot be understood by us sinful, mortal humans. It is all part of the great plan. It's better to just accept it and not worry about it. Just believe, don't ask questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAm_Lucifer Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Yeah I'd have to say that I aggree about lucifer being set up to rebel/fall by God. I can't realy say that I feel sorry for lucifer being punished for eternity since he's been given free reign over the earth in many things. You don't think that lucifer is getting his say even though the bible declares him the prince of the power of the air and even the temporary god of this earth? He has all the worlds attention so I wouldn't say that he was tried and sentanced without a say. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And being the ruler of the Earth, I get to get drunk, gamble and have unprotected sex with multiple women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 Yeah I'd have to say that I aggree about lucifer being set up to rebel/fall by God. [...] He has all the worlds attention so I wouldn't say that he was tried and sentanced without a say. Good grief! You agree with the idea that Lucifer's rebellion may have been a setup by God. And you serve such a being? Is that God not cruel and unjust? As for Lucifer having "all the worlds attention," what do you mean by that? Welcome to Ex-C, Riker. Join the party. Reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexkitten Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 It has long seemed to me that the concept of Satan as Christianity describes only makes sense within the context of a pantheon or a yin-yang dualism. Either Satan and God are two members of a highly powerful race of god-like beings who are stewards of earth and disagree on how it should be run, or they are the dual natures of the same entity. If Satan is not all-powerful (or at least "all-powerful" as God), the concept of him turning against god, being tried and punished, and sent to an eternal punishment while having dominion over the earth until the end when he mounts a final battle... just doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Correct me if I'm wrong but, God created Evil. God authorized Lucifer to torment Job, indeed, Lucifer could do nothing without God's order. Lucifer's involvement with "The Fall" is circumstantial at best. God is More Powerful. God made Lucifer ruler of Hell, gave him his job in other words. Am I wrong anywhoere? Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted April 25, 2005 Author Share Posted April 25, 2005 You see Reach. God's hand was behind all of this but nor you or I can understand the actions of god because his perfect immortal mind cannot be understood by us sinful, mortal humans. It is all part of the great plan. It's better to just accept it and not worry about it. Just believe, don't ask questions. Somewhere, I heard that before. God works in mysterious ways, beyond my comprehension, right? With the Devil being the source of fear and worry for many Christians, I'd be interested in reading their comments on this particular conundrum. How does one come to understand the creation of an agent for evil by a loving, holy and good creator/god and not hold that god accountable? Is he who would create this evil force not also evil at the core? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 No no no see none of you know god so you can't understand god. How it works is, you see, is that god gives everything free will. It's like if you start a car and put it in gear, it's not your fault if the car chooses to run down people on the sidewalk, you didn't make the car a killer, it made ITSELF that way. You just gave it the ABILITY to run people over and grind their flesh into the sidewalk. It chose for itself to be evil and run people over, and to the car masher it goes as punishment for its sins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted April 25, 2005 Author Share Posted April 25, 2005 Thanks, Lloyd. It all makes perfect sense to me now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted April 26, 2005 Share Posted April 26, 2005 Look back in history, and you'll see that the VICTORS get to write the story. How, then, do we know which side was really good? How do we know that Lucifer wasn't the original true God, and Jehovah rebelled and defeated him?? All we have is the story written by the winner.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted May 5, 2005 Author Share Posted May 5, 2005 How, then, do we know which side was really good? How do we know that Lucifer wasn't the original true God, and Jehovah rebelled and defeated him?? All we have is the story written by the winner.... Yes, we read the winner's side and don't get to read the loser's views. I have often pondered over the possibility of the story being turned inside out and upside down, as you mention. Perhaps some of our new Christians would care to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPillAddict Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Yeah I'd have to say that I aggree about lucifer being set up to rebel/fall by God. I can't realy say that I feel sorry for lucifer being punished for eternity since he's been given free reign over the earth in many things. You don't think that lucifer is getting his say even though the bible declares him the prince of the power of the air and even the temporary god of this earth? He has all the worlds attention so I wouldn't say that he was tried and sentanced without a say. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Man, its really good to get a reminder every once in a while of how ignorant and blindly-led Christians are, isnt it? "Well, it says this in the bible so that must be true!" What if the bible were complete BS, my friend? Or is is completely unquestionable to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 I would like to know Satans side too I think it is unjust for a God to create Satan then throw him in hell. God knows all and sees all so he knew what Satan would be like when he created him. God makes evil beings and evil people to later throw in hell I guess it is like making fire wood. Satan is innocent and should be freed he cant help what his creator made him do. God created evil not Satan so lets throw god in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 Essentially, 66 books have been written against the devil but he has been denied the opportunity to answer them. I came to the conclusion that according to these books, God is truly responsible for what happened to all of his creation, yet he is made out to be innocent. The devil has been turned into the scapegoat. Now that;s a big exaggeration my friend. First of the satan of the Ot is not the same as the devil of the NT as most christians would like to believe. Nor is the concept of hell or everlasting torture found in the OT. Satan is not a rebellious angel in OT. If you read the KJV and hebrew bible god declares that he creates Good and EVIL both. Even in the NT there are only like a few verses about the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 i just thought of something. the serpent in the garden is claimed by christians to be satan who is condemed for getting adam and eve to eat from the tree of knowledge and becoming gods. i guess god wanted us to be stupid rebots even if the serpent is not satan it still says basicly god wanted us to be idiots seems to me satans trying to help us he seems like the good god here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 i just thought of something. the serpent in the garden is claimed by christians to be satan who is condemed for getting adam and eve to eat from the tree of knowledge and becoming gods. i guess god wanted us to be stupid rebots even if the serpent is not satan it still says basicly god wanted us to be idiots seems to me satans trying to help us he seems like the good god here. The Sumerian texts that talk about Genesis and the Chronicles of Earth on http://www.halexandria.org say it best. I knew I'd like their pages when they said Genesis is a Reader's Digest version of the Sumerian texts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Copyright NormalBobSmith Ministries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necrosmith Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 I always wondered: if the devil were perfect, before becoming the devil as it were, how then was it even possible to rebel? Simple. He knew God best and knew what God was planning on doing with the human race. His perfect nature and sense of justice forced him to become a tragic hero. He could not idly stand by in good conscience and allow God to perpetrate the crimes he was going to committ against the human race. He even was able to convince a 3d of the Angels they had to do something. Satan is a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I always wondered: if the devil were perfect, before becoming the devil as it were, how then was it even possible to rebel? Simple. He flew over the flaming sword and ate of the tree after he saw how much better Adam and Eve were now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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