Christians Don't Believe In Hell

[Checkmate]

You know something? I am fucking sick and tired of Christians using “hell” as their favorite cattle prod to scare people into buying their “Pascal’s Wager-ism”. I am tired of Christians claiming that the reason they witness to the “lost”, and the reason that they post on this forum, is to “warn” people about “hell.” Fuck, I’m tired of Christians just mentioning the word “hell”! And why? Because Christians don’t even believe in this “Hell” they promote. They don’t! Not one, fucking word.

 

Bold statement, but can I back it up?

 

You better fucking well believe I can. Start reading.

 

"You are really convinced that you've got all the answers. You've really got yourself tricked into believing that you're 100% right. Well, let me tell you just one thing. Do you consider yourself to be compassionate of other humans? If you're right, as you say you are, and you believe that [sinners burn in hell for eternity for simply rejecting Jesus], then how can you sleep at night? When you speak with me, you are speaking with someone who you believe is walking directly into eternal damnation, into an endless onslaught of horrendous pain which your 'loving' god created, yet you stand by and do nothing.

 

If you believed one bit that thousands every day were falling into an eternal and unchangeable [and horrendous] fate, you should be running the streets mad with rage at their blindness. That's equivalent to standing on a street corner and watching every person that passes you walk blindly directly into the path of a bus and die, yet you stand idly by and do nothing. You're just twiddling your thumbs, happy in the knowledge that one day that 'walk' signal will shine your way across the road.

 

Think about it. Imagine the horrors Hell must have in store if the Bible is true. You're just going to allow that to happen and not care about saving anyone but yourself? If you're right then you're an uncaring, unemotional and purely selfish (expletive) that has no right to talk about subjects such as love and caring."

 

This is an excerpt from an e-mail sent to Evangelist Ray Comfort of Living Waters. [This e-mail can be found at http://www.repentamerica.com/letterfromateist.html]

 

Words [in brackets] are my addition.

And then there are these damning words from The Man himself, Robert Ingersoll:

 

"If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men. It has been a constant pain, a perpetual terror to every good man and woman and child. It has filled the good with horror and with fear; but it has had no effect upon the infamous and base. It has wrung the hearts of the tender, it has furrowed the cheeks of the good. This doctrine never should be preached again. What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena."

..........Robert Ingersoll, "The Liberty of Man, Woman and Child", 1877

 

Next, years ago I, the Grinch, read a story related by minister Chuck Swindoll, I believe it was in the pages of his book The Grace Awakening. (Or was it in Simple Faith? Well, either way, Swindoll wrote it. Who knows whether or not this is a True tale of woe? We all know how much Christians enjoy creating tales of inspiration to motivate their followers.)

 

He re-tells the story of a felon convicted of murder and who was on death row in prison. On the day of his execution, the priest visited the felon to administer Last Rites. On the way to the execution chamber, the priest dispassionately and lazily spoke of sin, forgiveness and the fires of eternal damnation. The condemned prisoner became quite offended at the priest’s cavalier attitude and took umbrage with him. He was angry that the priest seemed to care so little for such a horrible fate that allegedly awaited the condemned.

 

The criminal upbraided the priest sharply saying that if he, the criminal, believed in such a horrible destination as hell awaited mankind, then he would not sleep for proclaiming a warning. The criminal said that were it him who claimed to believe such a thing as hell, then he would cross miles of broken glass on his hands and knees to deliver this message and warn the lost away from this doom!

 

And then finally, we have the sundry posts and dodges from the assorted Christians we’ve gotten on this very forum. Not fucking ONE of them believes in a REAL, LITERAL HELL! Not one. They ALL have their OWN, PERSONAL and LESS OFFENSIVE IDEA of “hell”. (“Separation from god”, “loneliness”, or a “burning thirst”, as Billy Graham calls it.) Something that they can live with and still believe themselves to be decent human beings.

 

They offer analogies about “warning people about to go over waterfalls”, and “saving someone from a burning building”, however THOSE analogies fall flat on their faces. Whereas the “fire” and “waterfall” are REAL and can be verified as a legitimate THREAT to life and limb, the Christian notion of “hell” is a mere fabrication. Verified by the fact that Christian efforts to “save” anyone from this “danger” is so fucking cavalier! When is the last time anyone saw a casual fire fighter or lifeguard, just TALKING about saving a life in peril? Or do they get busy and dive headlong into danger?

 

So THIS is why I say that Christians themselves, (no matter WHAT they profess in their catechisms, or statements of faith, or Apostle’s Creeds) DO NOT believe in the doctrine of Hell! They don’t believe a word of it. The very idea of the Bible Hell that JESUS preached is offensive, disturbing and monstrous. And the idea that a “loving God” could eternally damn humanity to this fate is anathema to Christians. They recoil at this accusation against their god. And with good reason.

 

How could anyone, who believes in Eternal TORMENT for family, friends, neighbors and even strangers, possibly sleep knowing this horror awaits them? And how could you worship the “God” that created “hell”? Anyone who ACTUALLY believed in a “lake of burning fire”, where family and friends go to be punished for eternity, would not stop to sleep or eat. They would be incensed and mad with fasting, prayer and preaching warnings to the lost. AT ANY COST TO THEMSELVES!

 

They’d NEVER stop warning people. They wouldn’t be wasting time working for a paycheck. Got more important work to do! It’s sack cloth and ashes time! They wouldn’t be sitting at home eating a sumptuous meal and watching “Must See TV”, while thousands each MINUTE died and were being sent to Hell! They wouldn’t take vacations, and instead they’d be on street corners, in malls and in market places wailing in lament for the lost souls around and about them. They wouldn’t be wasting time arguing fruitlessly the finer points of church doctrine with APOSTATES on internet forums, who have already rejected the message. (Hello all!) They’d be pestering neighbors, family and friends morning, noon, and night, not caring if they believed them to be mad. They’d suffer every indignity, every beating, every sling and arrow, every depravation of the body and mind, every humiliating treatment of their person including imprisonment or institutionalization, all for the opportunity to warn the lost of the perils of Hell Fire!

 

And they’d “count it all joy”, as did the “Apostle Paul.”

 

But note for the record that NO CHRISTIAN IS DOING THIS! NOT ONE.

 

Oh sure, we’ve got the Sunday Morning sermons, delivered to PEW SITTERS who have already heard the message. There are even your “weekend warrior” Christians who make momentary nuisances of themselves in parks and on street corners as they get into fights with on-lookers and the cops. Even PAID evangelists and missionaries who go forth and “preach the gospel”.

 

But what REALLY are they preaching? (IF they preach at all.) A gospel of feel-goodism and good works and faithful tithing/obedience to the church. Or they spew vitriol and venom delivered against homosexuals and atheists, because “God Hates Sinners!” Christians typically content themselves with passing out a few Bibles, pamphlets, maybe a hot meal or two, some clothes and some pithy catch-phrases designed to help one (intimidate one) to live a “better life for Christ”. Thus making our society a better, safer “Christian” nation.

 

But…where is the PANIC and URGENCY of these stalwart evangelists as they warn about the fires of Hell?

 

It’s not there. And why not? Because THEY don’t believe in Hell (i.e. the “Lake of Burning Fire”) anymore than I do. Why panic and warn about something that you KNOW doesn’t exist? Why waste time wearing yourself to the bone about some penalty that you KNOW is not there, when there is living to be done here on Earth?

 

Much better to run the church like the business enterprise that it is. Build bigger church buildings, and sell Christian products to other gullible Christians, to stimulate the Christian economy. Gotta make sure all the Christian artistes receive their “Dove Awards” and the recognition for being the Top Christian Act of the Year. Then there is the important work of petitioning Congress to get prayer and the Ten Commandments back in schools, so Christian “values” can be taught to the chillin’ of America. And for God’s sake let’s make sure that homosexuals don’t ruin the institution of marriage! When Christ returns we sure as fuck don’t want him seeing THAT perversity of Adam and Steve kissing!

 

CHRISTIANS DON’T BELIEVE IN HELL! If they did they’d be frantically warning against it and not be wasting time with anything else.

 

And since I’m on a roll, let me say that Christians don’t “believe” in anything they say. For IF they did, the entire WORLD would see a marked difference in the way they behave and live. THIS WORLD and all that it offers would hold NO interest. They’d sell all they have, give it to the poor, go into the world and preach. But they don’t do ANY of this. And why not?

 

Christians are “storing up treasures here on earth” as fast as these treasures can be created. They live in and enjoy this world. Christians are even AFRAID to leave this world! Watch as the Christians pray against sickness, disease, accidental injury, LOSS OF PROPERTY and POSITION, and even against DEATH. Despite all of their vainglorious boastings of being “blessed children of God”, and “looking forward to meeting Him face-to-face”, Christians LOVE this world. They cling tenaciously to it, and they are TERRIFIED of dying. Terrified of LOSING something precious…their LIFE in THIS world.

 

The ONLY Christians who live in poverty are the ones who are FORCED into it by their circumstances. You will NEVER see any of today’s affluent church-goers sell all of their possessions and take up the life of poor, spirit-filled believers, suffering for the “cross of Christ.” Warning the “lost and dying” about “Judgment Day.” Not gonna happen.

 

But…why should any of this be? Why this marked discrepancy between what Christians SAY and what they DO? Between what the Bible teaches and what Christians “believe”? Most assuredly it’s because they don’t believe the horse shit they’re shoveling either! Because they don’t believe a fucking WORD of it. Not one word. They just like to pretend that they do. It makes them look good when they’re puffing themselves up in church circles. Why actually LIVE, sacrifice and DIE for “Christ”, when you can just TALK about doing it? Or better yet, just talk about some OTHER Christians who allegedly did it somewhere else, at some other time. “What an inspiration St. Paul or Justin Martyr are! Aren’t THEY grand examples of faith-filled men?”

 

Right…and just what have YOU done for Christ lately? Besides wasting time debating unbelievers on Ex-Christian.Net, that is.

 

“Who would die for a lie?” HAH! The better question is, “Who would LIVE for a lie?” Apparently not too fucking many.

 

 

"If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane."…..Robert Ingersoll

[white_raven23]

 

It's a durn purty thread Mr. Grinch!

 

Don't think too many "believers" are going to respond to it....too much painful truth. It really doesn't matter how many singular individuals they might mention as being true and real "sackcloth and ashes" evangelists either.....because all you have to ask is...

 

"so....where are YOUR sackcloth and ashes? And why did you abandon the truth for the sinful hedonism that would involve the kind of financial security in this materialistic world that enables you to make online posts on a computer?"

[h3lix]

...They’d NEVER stop warning people. They wouldn’t be wasting time working for a paycheck. Got more important work to do! It’s sack cloth and ashes time! They wouldn’t be sitting at home eating a sumptuous meal and watching “Must See TV”, while thousands each MINUTE died and were being sent to Hell! They wouldn’t take vacations, and instead they’d be on street corners, in malls and in market places wailing in lament for the lost souls around and about them. They wouldn’t be wasting time arguing fruitlessly the finer points of church doctrine with APOSTATES on internet forums, who have already rejected the message. (Hello all!) They’d be pestering neighbors, family and friends morning, noon, and night, not caring if they believed them to be mad. They’d suffer every indignity, every beating, every sling and arrow, every depravation of the body and mind, every humiliating treatment of their person including imprisonment or institutionalization, all for the opportunity to warn the lost of the perils of Hell Fire!

 

...

 

"If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane."…..Robert Ingersoll

 

There are probably people out there who roam the streets screaming about, but they are ignored and dismissed as insane, as in the Ingersoll quote.

 

At first I thought this was going to be similar to Hellbound Alleee's statement I heard on Freethought Radio about how fundamentalists must believe in evolution because of the number of species that have developed since Noah's Ark.

Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean that they don't believe it.

 

It is most likely that many Christians believe in hell as described in the Bible, but aren't as loving and compassionate as they puff themselves up to be.

 

Or perhaps they are following the word of God and avoiding non-christians (2 Corinthians 6:14).

[KT45]

Someones gotta do a podcast on this one!!!!

 

Great job!

[Amethyst]

Most of the Christians I know don't believe in hell. They're cherry pickers and only want to believe in the shiny happy fluffy bunny stuff. They've realized the the hell described in the bible is immoral and evil. They've realized it's unethical and unjust to torture people forever and ever and ever and ever, especially just for being a member of another religion. The only ones who literally believe in hell anymore are the scary fundy types.

 

And yet, many of the cherry pickers can't bring themselves to believe that the rest of it is crap too. They keep a universalist approach to religion but label themselves whatever denomination they grew up in. I used to be like that.

 

If they would just accurately label themselves universalists and go to a universalist church, or be honest and call themselves agnostic or deist or whatever they really are, I bet the fundies would be the only ones left. The trouble is that most Christians are afraid of changing labels because they don't want their friends and family to see them as non-Christians.

[Checkmate]

What? No "Christians" posting to tell me how wrong I am? I'm shocked!

 

Or MAYBE they've finally been pricked in the heart. MAYBE they've gone to sell their possessions, give the proceeds to the poor, and gone into the world to FINALLY put their money where their mouth is. Maybe we won't hear from them again. Maybe when next we see them, they'll be in the news raving mad with panic as they preach about God's wrath! Glory!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, right. And maybe I'll blow solar flares out of my ass, too.

[Open_Minded]

I think Amethyst is right - most mainstream Christians don't believe in hell. A few mainstream churches are actually starting to openly discuss this.

 

The fundies???? I don't know about them, I've never been in their shoes. But, I do have one observation to make.

 

As many times as I've seen newbies come in here and honestly discuss - in Ex-Christian life - their continuing fears of hell, I'm inclined to think that some literalists do actually believe in hell and feel torment about it. But, they are so overwhelmed by the idea of hell for themselves and those they love, they can't contemplate the sheer enormity of hell for just about every human that was ever born. They focus instead on heaven for themselves and those they love - it's easier - and safer.

 

Just a thought - those of you who were actually involved in the literalist branches of Christianity would know more than I.

[Asuryan]

What? No "Christians" posting to tell me how wrong I am? I'm shocked!

 

 

 

No, you're not, you're way too intelligent to really ignore the typical, courageous Christian reaction on these boards whenever someone asks them a difficult question: they pretend they didn't hear

 

However I expect amy marie to answer soon. She'll say "Not true. God loves you. Meanies!"

 

And the new Christian on the block (I still don't remember his name though) will answer too. He'll say "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah not true."

 

 

 

 

However you're perfectly right. Most christians don't believe in hell. I guess if some of them really believe in hell, and they sit on their asses without doing anything, then they are some of the most horrible and cruel people existing. Maybe those ones think that people doomed to hell wouldn't deserve any better anyway, so why caring? This is the reason of their half-assed efforts. Sure, spreading the word is nice and all, and the gospel says you should spread the word, but it is so much better to just stay in front of your computer... typing a post every now and then discussing with apostates so you can feel ok with your conscience... (hey, I tried, right? So what do I care if they burn in hell, not my fault anyway...), and of course when they'll be in heaven (or so they think) why should they care about the unbelievers and sinners burning up in hell? Their priests say they'll have perfect happiness in heaven. Hmm... so does this mean maybe that they'll became all so cruel and monstrous (as their god is) to just consider those sufferings nonexistant or irrelevant? Or will they be lobotomized, so they will simply ignore the existence of suffering people some floors below them?

 

Questions, questions...

[Ouroboros]

MrGrinch, you're absolutely right.

 

And also, this is a thought I had for many years, most Christians don't take their faith or the Holy Book seriously either. They don't live like the Bible teaches. If they truly believed the Bible was the Only True Word of God, then they would read it from cover to cover all the time to know and understand the full instructions to live right and go to Heaven. But they don't.

 

It's like someone tell you there is a huge hurricane coming to your town, and they tell you there is an instruction book that will help you survive. If I believe what I heard about the coming disaster and what was said about the book, I would read the book and understand it and follow it. But if I don't read it and follow it, it means that I really didn't take the story completely for true.

[Amethyst]

As many times as I've seen newbies come in here and honestly discuss - in Ex-Christian life - their continuing fears of hell, I'm inclined to think that some literalists do actually believe in hell and feel torment about it. But, they are so overwhelmed by the idea of hell for themselves and those they love, they can't contemplate the sheer enormity of hell for just about every human that was ever born. They focus instead on heaven for themselves and those they love - it's easier - and safer.

 

Just a thought - those of you who were actually involved in the literalist branches of Christianity would know more than I.

 

I was raised in a Mo. Synod Lutheran church. At the time, everyone there was a literalist. If anyone wasn't, they kept their opinions to themselves. My mother was an uber fundy and did literally believe in it until the day she died. She was the one who instilled a fear of hell into me and used it to emotionally manipulate me. My dad at the time was a moderate. He is more of a deist/universalist these days, but still calls himself Lutheran and goes to church.

[KT45]

How could anyone, who believes in Eternal TORMENT for family, friends, neighbors and even strangers, possibly sleep knowing this horror awaits them? And how could you worship the “God” that created “hell”? Anyone who ACTUALLY believed in a “lake of burning fire”, where family and friends go to be punished for eternity, would not stop to sleep or eat. They would be incensed and mad with fasting, prayer and preaching warnings to the lost. AT ANY COST TO THEMSELVES!

 

Quick question. Why didn't ya'll act like this when you were christians? What was your mentality concerning hell.

 

I was wondering why I personally didn't do this. I believed in hell but I didn't care for others souls but only cared for my own. Why wasn't I running around like a lunatic begging people to accept Jesus. Was I so selfish that I only cared for myself? Why did I let all these people walk by me when they could be destined for eternal flames. Why did I care about the small stuff like dealing with my own sins, paying tithes or making sure I go to church every sunday, when getting people saved should be priority? Looking back I cared more about going to college then about people literally burning forever!!! I think since I didn't see anyone else doing it then I was acting like a good christian.

[Jubilant]

Quick question. Why didn't ya'll act like this when you were christians? What was your mentality concerning hell.

 

For me, I was one of those who literally laid awake at night tormented by thoughts of loved ones and others being eternally tortured. This went on for about two years and much was centered on our son. From the age of 6 until my deconversion, he questioned EVERYTHING in the Bible. I'd tell him we need to do this and he'd say, "But mom, the other day you read in the bible and it said different. Which way is it?" I'd give some stupid feeble attempt to explain contradictions away but he'd have no part, "Why does god want me to sing to him, what does he care?" UGH, my biggest fear was that he'd grow up and not accept God or Jesus. Same with DH because he didn't pray much or ever read his Bible, I thought for sure he'd be doomed. Then my agnostic/atheist stepfather and stepbrothers who are all GOOD guys, they have their flaws but certainly not deserving of eternal torture. I'd look at the elderly and think of good people who weren't Christians, it was just more than I could stand to think about and it drove me nuts.

 

As far as why I didn't go outside my walls and witness? I figured it'd be better for others if they didn't hear the message and convinced myself that god would be more merciful to someone who hadn't heard it than to someone who did but rejected it. IOW, I didn't want to be responsible for someone being tortured for eternity by not accepting Jesus after hearing the message. But yet I witnessed so much to family that I ruined relationships, thankfully all are repaired. I thought, if I can just get them to see the "love" that Jesus 'is.' they'll be okay, but they still rejected and then I was left feeling like a failure. Not only did I fail them but god....that WAS my line of thinking back then.

[OnceConvinced]

And then finally, we have the sundry posts and dodges from the assorted Christians we’ve gotten on this very forum. Not fucking ONE of them believes in a REAL, LITERAL HELL! Not one. They ALL have their OWN, PERSONAL and LESS OFFENSIVE IDEA of “hell”. (“Separation from god”, “loneliness”, or a “burning thirst”, as Billy Graham calls it.) Something that they can live with and still believe themselves to be decent human beings.

 

Actually there are plenty of people out there who would welcome being alone and have nobody bothering them. Wouldn't be hell for them.

 

Mr Grinch, there is no doubt there are a lot of Christians out there that don't believe in the hell where there is eternal torment. But no doubt a lot also believe in a watered down version. Or maybe that hell is really just the grave. (which the old testament suggests). But you are assuming that everyone cares deeply about their fellow human beings.

 

I think there are two other categories that Christians fit into.

 

Those who are afraid of people

Those who just don't care and who are more concerned with themselves.

 

Some people find talking to others, getting out there and doing public speaking a horrific thing. They could never do it, no matter how desperate the situation was. It's a major phobia. So no, they won't be out there preaching and trying to bring in converts. It's not physically possible for them. But it doesn't mean they don't believe in hell.

 

I think most Christians fall into the latter category though, of just not caring enough. If it's someone you don't know, their suffering in hell is not personal for you. If it's a family member or a friend, you bet they'll be trying to convert them. But if it's some Joe Bloggs on the street, why should they care? Besides they have their own lives, they want to enjoy it. So they are not going to want to spend all their time and money trying to get people saved. It's just human nature. You have to look after yourself and your loved ones first.

 

So no, I don't go along with the claim that Christians don't believe in hell. If they didn't, then they would be a lot quicker to deconvert. After all isn't it true that most Christians are in the faith because they totally fear hell?

[Lightbearer]

You know something? I am fucking sick and tired of Christians using “hell” as their favorite cattle prod to scare people into buying their “Pascal’s Wager-ism”. I am tired of Christians claiming that the reason they witness to the “lost”, and the reason that they post on this forum, is to “warn” people about “hell.” Fuck, I’m tired of Christians just mentioning the word “hell”! And why? Because Christians don’t even believe in this “Hell” they promote. They don’t! Not one, fucking word.

 

Bold statement, but can I back it up?

 

You better fucking well believe I can. Start reading.

 

"You are really convinced that you've got all the answers. You've really got yourself tricked into believing that you're 100% right. Well, let me tell you just one thing. Do you consider yourself to be compassionate of other humans? If you're right, as you say you are, and you believe that [sinners burn in hell for eternity for simply rejecting Jesus], then how can you sleep at night? When you speak with me, you are speaking with someone who you believe is walking directly into eternal damnation, into an endless onslaught of horrendous pain which your 'loving' god created, yet you stand by and do nothing.

 

If you believed one bit that thousands every day were falling into an eternal and unchangeable [and horrendous] fate, you should be running the streets mad with rage at their blindness. That's equivalent to standing on a street corner and watching every person that passes you walk blindly directly into the path of a bus and die, yet you stand idly by and do nothing. You're just twiddling your thumbs, happy in the knowledge that one day that 'walk' signal will shine your way across the road.

 

Think about it. Imagine the horrors Hell must have in store if the Bible is true. You're just going to allow that to happen and not care about saving anyone but yourself? If you're right then you're an uncaring, unemotional and purely selfish (expletive) that has no right to talk about subjects such as love and caring."

 

This is an excerpt from an e-mail sent to Evangelist Ray Comfort of Living Waters. [This e-mail can be found at http://www.repentamerica.com/letterfromateist.html]

 

Words [in brackets] are my addition.

And then there are these damning words from The Man himself, Robert Ingersoll:

 

"If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men. It has been a constant pain, a perpetual terror to every good man and woman and child. It has filled the good with horror and with fear; but it has had no effect upon the infamous and base. It has wrung the hearts of the tender, it has furrowed the cheeks of the good. This doctrine never should be preached again. What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena."

..........Robert Ingersoll, "The Liberty of Man, Woman and Child", 1877

 

Next, years ago I, the Grinch, read a story related by minister Chuck Swindoll, I believe it was in the pages of his book The Grace Awakening. (Or was it in Simple Faith? Well, either way, Swindoll wrote it. Who knows whether or not this is a True tale of woe? We all know how much Christians enjoy creating tales of inspiration to motivate their followers.)

 

He re-tells the story of a felon convicted of murder and who was on death row in prison. On the day of his execution, the priest visited the felon to administer Last Rites. On the way to the execution chamber, the priest dispassionately and lazily spoke of sin, forgiveness and the fires of eternal damnation. The condemned prisoner became quite offended at the priest’s cavalier attitude and took umbrage with him. He was angry that the priest seemed to care so little for such a horrible fate that allegedly awaited the condemned.

 

The criminal upbraided the priest sharply saying that if he, the criminal, believed in such a horrible destination as hell awaited mankind, then he would not sleep for proclaiming a warning. The criminal said that were it him who claimed to believe such a thing as hell, then he would cross miles of broken glass on his hands and knees to deliver this message and warn the lost away from this doom!

 

And then finally, we have the sundry posts and dodges from the assorted Christians we’ve gotten on this very forum. Not fucking ONE of them believes in a REAL, LITERAL HELL! Not one. They ALL have their OWN, PERSONAL and LESS OFFENSIVE IDEA of “hell”. (“Separation from god”, “loneliness”, or a “burning thirst”, as Billy Graham calls it.) Something that they can live with and still believe themselves to be decent human beings.

 

They offer analogies about “warning people about to go over waterfalls”, and “saving someone from a burning building”, however THOSE analogies fall flat on their faces. Whereas the “fire” and “waterfall” are REAL and can be verified as a legitimate THREAT to life and limb, the Christian notion of “hell” is a mere fabrication. Verified by the fact that Christian efforts to “save” anyone from this “danger” is so fucking cavalier! When is the last time anyone saw a casual fire fighter or lifeguard, just TALKING about saving a life in peril? Or do they get busy and dive headlong into danger?

 

So THIS is why I say that Christians themselves, (no matter WHAT they profess in their catechisms, or statements of faith, or Apostle’s Creeds) DO NOT believe in the doctrine of Hell! They don’t believe a word of it. The very idea of the Bible Hell that JESUS preached is offensive, disturbing and monstrous. And the idea that a “loving God” could eternally damn humanity to this fate is anathema to Christians. They recoil at this accusation against their god. And with good reason.

 

How could anyone, who believes in Eternal TORMENT for family, friends, neighbors and even strangers, possibly sleep knowing this horror awaits them? And how could you worship the “God” that created “hell”? Anyone who ACTUALLY believed in a “lake of burning fire”, where family and friends go to be punished for eternity, would not stop to sleep or eat. They would be incensed and mad with fasting, prayer and preaching warnings to the lost. AT ANY COST TO THEMSELVES!

 

They’d NEVER stop warning people. They wouldn’t be wasting time working for a paycheck. Got more important work to do! It’s sack cloth and ashes time! They wouldn’t be sitting at home eating a sumptuous meal and watching “Must See TV”, while thousands each MINUTE died and were being sent to Hell! They wouldn’t take vacations, and instead they’d be on street corners, in malls and in market places wailing in lament for the lost souls around and about them. They wouldn’t be wasting time arguing fruitlessly the finer points of church doctrine with APOSTATES on internet forums, who have already rejected the message. (Hello all!) They’d be pestering neighbors, family and friends morning, noon, and night, not caring if they believed them to be mad. They’d suffer every indignity, every beating, every sling and arrow, every depravation of the body and mind, every humiliating treatment of their person including imprisonment or institutionalization, all for the opportunity to warn the lost of the perils of Hell Fire!

 

And they’d “count it all joy”, as did the “Apostle Paul.”

 

But note for the record that NO CHRISTIAN IS DOING THIS! NOT ONE.

 

Oh sure, we’ve got the Sunday Morning sermons, delivered to PEW SITTERS who have already heard the message. There are even your “weekend warrior” Christians who make momentary nuisances of themselves in parks and on street corners as they get into fights with on-lookers and the cops. Even PAID evangelists and missionaries who go forth and “preach the gospel”.

 

But what REALLY are they preaching? (IF they preach at all.) A gospel of feel-goodism and good works and faithful tithing/obedience to the church. Or they spew vitriol and venom delivered against homosexuals and atheists, because “God Hates Sinners!” Christians typically content themselves with passing out a few Bibles, pamphlets, maybe a hot meal or two, some clothes and some pithy catch-phrases designed to help one (intimidate one) to live a “better life for Christ”. Thus making our society a better, safer “Christian” nation.

 

But…where is the PANIC and URGENCY of these stalwart evangelists as they warn about the fires of Hell?

 

It’s not there. And why not? Because THEY don’t believe in Hell (i.e. the “Lake of Burning Fire”) anymore than I do. Why panic and warn about something that you KNOW doesn’t exist? Why waste time wearing yourself to the bone about some penalty that you KNOW is not there, when there is living to be done here on Earth?

 

Much better to run the church like the business enterprise that it is. Build bigger church buildings, and sell Christian products to other gullible Christians, to stimulate the Christian economy. Gotta make sure all the Christian artistes receive their “Dove Awards” and the recognition for being the Top Christian Act of the Year. Then there is the important work of petitioning Congress to get prayer and the Ten Commandments back in schools, so Christian “values” can be taught to the chillin’ of America. And for God’s sake let’s make sure that homosexuals don’t ruin the institution of marriage! When Christ returns we sure as fuck don’t want him seeing THAT perversity of Adam and Steve kissing!

 

CHRISTIANS DON’T BELIEVE IN HELL! If they did they’d be frantically warning against it and not be wasting time with anything else.

 

And since I’m on a roll, let me say that Christians don’t “believe” in anything they say. For IF they did, the entire WORLD would see a marked difference in the way they behave and live. THIS WORLD and all that it offers would hold NO interest. They’d sell all they have, give it to the poor, go into the world and preach. But they don’t do ANY of this. And why not?

 

Christians are “storing up treasures here on earth” as fast as these treasures can be created. They live in and enjoy this world. Christians are even AFRAID to leave this world! Watch as the Christians pray against sickness, disease, accidental injury, LOSS OF PROPERTY and POSITION, and even against DEATH. Despite all of their vainglorious boastings of being “blessed children of God”, and “looking forward to meeting Him face-to-face”, Christians LOVE this world. They cling tenaciously to it, and they are TERRIFIED of dying. Terrified of LOSING something precious…their LIFE in THIS world.

 

The ONLY Christians who live in poverty are the ones who are FORCED into it by their circumstances. You will NEVER see any of today’s affluent church-goers sell all of their possessions and take up the life of poor, spirit-filled believers, suffering for the “cross of Christ.” Warning the “lost and dying” about “Judgment Day.” Not gonna happen.

 

But…why should any of this be? Why this marked discrepancy between what Christians SAY and what they DO? Between what the Bible teaches and what Christians “believe”? Most assuredly it’s because they don’t believe the horse shit they’re shoveling either! Because they don’t believe a fucking WORD of it. Not one word. They just like to pretend that they do. It makes them look good when they’re puffing themselves up in church circles. Why actually LIVE, sacrifice and DIE for “Christ”, when you can just TALK about doing it? Or better yet, just talk about some OTHER Christians who allegedly did it somewhere else, at some other time. “What an inspiration St. Paul or Justin Martyr are! Aren’t THEY grand examples of faith-filled men?”

 

Right…and just what have YOU done for Christ lately? Besides wasting time debating unbelievers on Ex-Christian.Net, that is.

 

“Who would die for a lie?” HAH! The better question is, “Who would LIVE for a lie?” Apparently not too fucking many.

 

 

"If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane."…..Robert Ingersoll

 

 

Damn! That was a good post. It made me think about it alot. You pretty much hit the nails on the cross with that one.

 

The contradictions and parallels are insane aren't they? I hardly ever see anyone practicing anything close to what they preach. But your post is about Christians and hell... and I can assure you, most believe in hell BUT they don't have to worry about it because they've been saved from that horriable fate. Alot of Christians claim that God knows who will be saved and who won't because God knows everyones hearts, minds and souls. So why bother? Christianity itself is "fire insurance" as one of my pastors called it. They don't want to go to hell so they accept Christ as protection from it, but not to live the life that Christ lived. No wonder, Christ was broke and hungry all the time and he spent time with horriable people like prositutes and lepers. I think if Jesus was real he wouldn't love very many people who follow him, he'd call them hypocritical assholes who give him a bad reputation.

 

On the subject of hell? You have to question why there is a hell in the first place. In Genesis, God created the Heavens and the Earth. No mention of hell. The damn serpent wasn't even give a name or a back story. It was just a talking snake. But that brings me to my point. Hell is for sinners when they die but what exactly is sin? Part of my deconversion was because of the author Ayn Rand who wrote one of the most truthful things ever written --

 

What is the nature of the guilt your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Thier myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowlegde-he aqcuired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowlege of good and evil-- he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor-- he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire--He acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness,joy-- all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that thier myth of man's fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as a man. Whatever he was -- that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without a mind, without values, without labor, without love -- he was not a man.

Man's fall according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by thier standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he's man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives

 

True... you get sent to hell, a place that's barely mentioned in the bible, because your are living, breathing person.

 

And why was Lucifer thrown down into Hell? For simply questioning God. That obedience for you. Hell is a fabrication religion uses to gain new blood and sell books.

[snookums]

What? No "Christians" posting to tell me how wrong I am? I'm shocked!

 

Or MAYBE they've finally been pricked in the heart. MAYBE they've gone to sell their possessions, give the proceeds to the poor, and gone into the world to FINALLY put their money where their mouth is. Maybe we won't hear from them again. Maybe when next we see them, they'll be in the news raving mad with panic as they preach about God's wrath! Glory!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, right. And maybe I'll blow solar flares out of my ass, too.

 

Sorry to shatter you illusions....but there are fucked up christians doing something that resembles that stuff...'giving to the poor' etc....but it turns to a great scam as well.

This guy is as looney as you can get - some might call him a cult leader?

http://www.trinityfi.org/press/newyorker.html

 

But...I doubt any of em' will go away....

 

Chrisitan will turn anything and everything into a scam......you know how come......cos there is nothing 'different' about them...they are not unique....not changed by 'salvation'...

 

Ziltch...is only a meaningless label. "the chrisitan'....(crap)

[Checkmate]

Actually there are plenty of people out there who would welcome being alone and have nobody bothering them. Wouldn't be hell for them.

 

Mr Grinch, there is no doubt there are a lot of Christians out there that don't believe in the hell where there is eternal torment. But no doubt a lot also believe in a watered down version. Or maybe that hell is really just the grave. (which the old testament suggests). But you are assuming that everyone cares deeply about their fellow human beings.

Sorry, but no, I don't assume any such thing. I KNOW for a FACT that most humans don't give two shits about their fellow human beings. I live on this planet. I can SEE what is going on. Which is why I made this post/point. Christians don't really care about anyone but themselves. I don't blame them for THAT. I'm simply calling them on their blatant hypocrisy.

I think there are two other categories that Christians fit into.

 

Those who are afraid of people

Those who just don't care and who are more concerned with themselves.

 

Some people find talking to others, getting out there and doing public speaking a horrific thing. They could never do it, no matter how desperate the situation was. It's a major phobia. So no, they won't be out there preaching and trying to bring in converts. It's not physically possible for them. But it doesn't mean they don't believe in hell.

Yes, "some people" find it hard to speak to others. Public Speaking is the Number One Fear. Which is just MORE proof of hypocrisy and not being "born again". Why should a "Christian" FEAR speaking the truth in love? Why aren't they any better at life than the rest of us? Answer: it's all bullshit.

I think most Christians fall into the latter category though, of just not caring enough. If it's someone you don't know, their suffering in hell is not personal for you. If it's a family member or a friend, you bet they'll be trying to convert them. But if it's some Joe Bloggs on the street, why should they care? Besides they have their own lives, they want to enjoy it. So they are not going to want to spend all their time and money trying to get people saved. It's just human nature. You have to look after yourself and your loved ones first.

See my above comments.

So no, I don't go along with the claim that Christians don't believe in hell. If they didn't, then they would be a lot quicker to deconvert. After all isn't it true that most Christians are in the faith because they totally fear hell?

No. I don't believe that it's true that "most" Christians are in the faith due to the fear of hell. "Some" for sure, but not "most". "Most" Christians are in the faith because they've been manipulated and indoctrinated to accept this nonsense by family and country. "Most" Christians, as we've amply demonstrated, don't even believe in hell. Why fear what you don't truly believe in, or fear what you've already watered down to nothing?

 

And for the few who do believe in "hell", this belief is more of a burden than an aid. Instead of being an impetus to evangelize, "hell" is usually a terror that frightens the believer. (Which was PRECISELY the True purpose of "hell". Keeping the sheep in line.)

 

It is for this reason that I believe that many churches are doing away with emphasizing "hell". It's very damaging to the mind and spirit of the believers.

 

Also not believing in "hell" has NOTHING to do with "quickly" deconverting from Christianity. It's a helluva lot more complex and involved than that. You don't shed a lifelong belief system that easily simply because ONE aspect of it proves false. Particularly if you've managed to find other aspects to adore about that religion.

[Checkmate]

Bump.

 

Just for the fun of it, I went tripping down memory lane, doing some research for Taylork45's FAQ thread, and I found this past thread and post on the subject of Hell and Christian unbelief.

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...=1272&st=25

I believe there is a heaven and a hell.[...]

 

The Bible also teaches that if you reject Christ as Lord that you are hell-bound.

 

What I have said is what Christianity teaches and if my faith is Truth...................this will be what happens.

 

IF, my faith is the Truth.

I need a breather..........

 

Tap

 

I don't believe you, TAP. I don't believe you believe what you say you believe. If you really believed we were heading for hell, wouldn't your posting habits be different on this board? Out of 786 total posts, at this moment, you have posted in Totally Off Topic 574 times which represents 73% of your active posts. Most of these posts are in game threads so one might draw the conclusion that 73% of your activity here is about fun and games. That's the statistical part of your testimony on this board.

 

Are you doing the work of an evangelist here or are you heartless about the fact that you believe we are going to hell for all eternity?

 

Either you don't really care about us or you don't really believe in hell. You can't have it both ways.

 

I'm just trying to be honest and not play games. I don't think there is anything funny at all about an eternity in hell. That damnable doctrine is what opened my eyes to the wickedness of Christianity in the first place.

 

TAP, I don't intend any disrespect towards you at all, in any way, but sometimes we have to wake up and smell the coffee and I think the coffee is burnt.

 

Breathe fresh air.

-Reach

The names may change, but the Truth never does!

[Piprus]

One of the best anti-sermons I've seen here in my so far short sojourn...thanks for reviving that, Grinch

 

Now if they would quit believing in a Disneyland heaven as well, we might be better able to get through to them.