Nightmare Fundy on Wheels

[Guest SerenityNow]

You All Are AWESOME!!

 

Hi Everyone, I've obviously been here a few days and have been posting madly due to the newness of it all. :-) Just want to tell you that I have never in my life been in contact with such an intelligent and knowledgeable group of people. There are things you all know that just blow me away and I feel like an idiot just reading some of it. I was so one-sided for so long that I don't know a fraction of what many of you learned. My initial testimony is on the exchristion. net testimony page.

 

One thing that I didn't add because it never occured to me was this.... My brainwashing never came from the church, it came from reading the Bible. I NEVER thought the outburst of tongues was appropriate in the church because the Bible says that it isn't, but yet our church taught tongues to the kids and had them practice, etc. I never thought it was okay to accept Jesus and keep on sinning, because the Bible says it isn't. Oh, you can pick and pull a scripture or two that says so, however, there are way more scriptures saying otherwise. The tithing, now thats another story. Until I started noticing that the law wasn't abolished but yet the majority of churches say we aren't under OT law but kept the tithe, I was clueless. "Not under law but under grace"...I absolutely loathed that license to "sin" quote when I was a Christian.

 

I still love the friends that I made and am not against them, although I notice that some of my statements here may seem that I am. For years I was just like them, thinking all the world was wrong. I refused to read anything other than Christian books, including those on science. Mr. Hovind became my science teacher, so I'm still stuck with his words in my head and need to find some good science teachings. Our LifeGroup did a study with his videos so please, any good reputable books that dispute him is what I need to look for.

 

I almost single-handedly destroyed my family. The very last straw on my deconversion came when I was going to leave my husband because I didn't think that he was growing fast enough. The Bible has Jesus saying you'll get a reward here on earth if you leave your family for me and that if you don't, you are not worthy. Our children were in tears because they were going to leave with me because daddy was not a "true" Christian. This is very very hard to type, btw, I'm sickened at what I almost did. Anyway, with divorce looming overhead I decided that I loved my family more than I loved that asshole that asked me to hate them. The word "hate" that bible authors translated literally meant hate. Oh, I heard the excuses but one need only look at the OT and see that there was a law to stone a family member for not believing or following other gods, so I knew that that scripture was to be taken literal. Of course, I kept hearing, that was only for the disciples...Hello, isn't that the goal of Christianity? Disciple making?

 

The relationship with my mom, stepfather, sister and stepbrothers, was so horrible. At Christmas I had a huge falling out with my mom because we wouldn't by a Christmas tree. She doesn't know that we didn't celebrate Christmas at all. We started observing the Sabbath and were to do the holy days also, because I wanted to do what the bible god said to do in order to be pleasing to him. My sister and I argued all the time, no one called me anymore, I was a nightmare fundamentalist on wheels.

 

I never realized it at the time, but all of that "spiritual growth" was actually the needed pain that I needed to get out of my trap. I just wish that noone in my family had to suffer at my expense. No halloween, no Christmas, no Easter, no television. Somehow though, my children stayed happy..now that's a miracle. My husband? Although miserable throughout my ups and down he stuck it out with me. He is a wonderful man and we have a terrific marriage.

 

I'm a happier person now, I actually have started to enjoy life again. The days are brighter because I'm not CONSTANTLY worried about unbelivers or untrue Christians going to hell. I would make myself ill with worry, worried I was going to hell, worried if I didn't do right that our kids would go to hell, worried my husband would go to hell, my grandparents, my relatives, on and on. Many sleepless nights just worrying. What a relief to have that burden lifted and it wasn't by Jesus! Movies that I've missed over the years are coming regularly in Netflix and my hubby isn't left alone to watch them by himself. Listening to some good secular music is coming back and being that I was an 80's teen I love my Journey, Boston, U2, etc. coming out of those speakers. My children and I, oh, what to say...they are wonderful kids and it's nice to just let them be kids!

 

Well, I've ranted long enough. I'm looking foward to reading more of your posts.

 

Sandy

[Reach]

I refused to read anything other than Christian books, including those on science.  Mr. Hovind became my science teacher, so I'm still stuck with his words in my head and need to find some good science teachings.  Our LifeGroup did a study with his videos so please, any good reputable books that dispute him is what I need to look for.

Uh... Dr. Neil, the patient is ready to see you.

 

Sandy, for you and your family's sake, I'm glad you got yourself untangled from that mess.

-Reach

[thomas]

I never realized it at the time, but all of that "spiritual growth" was actually the needed pain that I needed to get out of my trap.  I just wish that noone in my family had to suffer at my expense.  No halloween, no Christmas, no Easter, no television.  Somehow though, my children stayed happy..now that's a miracle.  My husband?  Although miserable throughout my ups and down he stuck it out with me.  He is a wonderful man and we have a terrific marriage.

 

I'm a happier person now, I actually have started to enjoy life again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for sharing. I am happy, that you and made it, and that your family is well.

[Godless Wonder]

Some good books:

 

"Climbing Mount Improbable" by Richard Dawkins

"Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan

"A Brief History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson

"Phantoms In the Brain" by V. S. Ramachandran

"From Lucy to Language" (I forget the author... contains beautiful photos of hominid fossils.)

[Reach]

"From Lucy to Language" (I forget the author... contains beautiful photos of hominid fossils.)

 

From Lucy to Language by Donald Johanson and Blake Edgar, 1996

 

A Review from Publishers Weekly

No serious student of paleoanthropology can afford to miss this magnificent, encyclopedic survey of human origins. It combines a lucid, meticulous text by noted American paleontologist Johanson (well known for his discovery of Lucy, a 3.2-million-year-old hominid skeleton from Ethiopia) and freelancer Edgar with more than 200 stunning color photographs of fossils, artifacts and prehistoric art by National Geographic chief staff photographer Brill. The book's first half succinctly yet comprehensively explores dozens of issues and controversies, among them our genetic similarity to our closest living relatives, African apes; what early humans looked like; Homo's probable beginnings in Africa and migrations therefrom; and the latest evidence regarding hominid lifestyles, diet, shelter, art, burial practices. The second half contains arguably the fullest systematic survey to date for the nonspecialist of fossil hominids, ranging from the earliest such find, in 1921, to the most recent specimens from Kenya and Ethiopia, unearthed in 1994-95 and dated to more than four million years. Johanson forcefully argues that race is a superficial cultural construct without any solid genetic basis, and he theorizes that language, a survival mechanism that evolved through natural selection, is intimately linked to our brain's evolution.

Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc.

[Alice]

Did any of you have a hard time going from solely "creationist" to contemplating evolution?  I'm still not so sure that I accept Darwinism, however, I am willing to study alternate view points.  Is there any middle ground between Creationism an Darwinism?

 

I'm not so sure about carbon dating as there are facts showing, for instance, that it showed a live seal being like 2,000 years old, etc.  Many more examples of live or recently dead things being carbon dated at ridiculously high ages, sometimes hundreds or thousands of years.  Also, with stalagmite (sp?), formation.  Mr. Hovind showed were there are huge formations under buildings not all that old at all.  There has to be a reasonable balance between the two most common views.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess this is what I would advise ... rather than trying to decide how the world came about - just spend some time finding out about the world that is - and enjoying saying WOW - that's amazing, without caring too much how it happened.

 

Then read Bill Bryson's 'a short history of nearly everthing' and enjoy his descriptions of the miracle of the universe written without a belief in god.

[I Broke Free]

Wow! What a moving story Thankful.

 

Welcome to the forum and the bright light of reason. I too am thankful your marriage and family remained intact, you sounded absolutely insufferable. (I can relate to that)

 

IBF

[thomas]

Did any of you have a hard time going from solely "creationist" to contemplating evolution?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure. For most of my life I have only been able to see intelligent design when looking at the nature. The naure was like a watch, and there had to be a watchmaker.

 

It took a lot of reading and thinking before I was able to see, that I was not looking at the nature with an open mind. Although there certainly is organization in the nature (elements that fit together and serve a purpose), there are also many other things there. There are failures, sickness and huge amounts of wasted ressources. So if there is intelligence behind the nature, then it is certainly another kind of intellignce, than the one used by a watchmaker.

 

What is seen, depends on what you look for, but it took really long time for me to be able to consider evolutions as a serious alternative.

[Amethyst]

Welcome. If you're looking for science books, I recommend anything by Stephen Hawking.

 

Stephen Hawking's official website

[Ouroboros]

Sandy,

 

I know exactly how you feel. Even though my experience was different, there are many similarities. It’s amazing that you kept your marriage together through that time.

 

The feelings you have of joy and freedom is something I truly share. I felt literally that an emotional burden was lifted the day I finally admitted that I didn’t believe anymore. The same thing that you were supposed to feel when you got Christian was the feeling I had when leaving! Doesn’t make sense does it, or actually it does.

 

The first time after was hard just because you had to reprogram your mind, and it’s a step-by-step journey.

 

Regarding literature, I can say that 90% of what I read comes from internet. I will try to find the different websites that were helpful to me.

 

And for the comment that you feel so many people are so knowledgeable here, I can just say, it comes with the territory. Somehow a “spirit” of knowledge and understanding comes and you start seeing things for what they are. It’s amazing. Probably the explanation is that you are more open-minded, and yet critical, you can listen and learn, and you’re not afraid to be wrong or not to know something. It’s very liberating. The knowledge comes with time. I’m for sure is not highly educated, and do NOT claim that I’m that smart or intelligent. But hey, I don’t care; my Bible is my Mind now, not a book I have to memorize, and my god is myself.

 

Welcome to the freedom.

 

[edit]

I created a Blog entry with some sites.

Occasionally I will add more URLs in that entry, when I find something good.

[Fweethawt]

Excellent story, Sandy. Just excellent.

 

You really sound like you're on fire for the Lor life.

 

Just life...

 

Nothing else.

 

Beautiful!

 

I wish you, your children, and your husband (who is one heck of a guy) the very best!

 

[spamandham]

Sandy, glad you found us! Godless Wonder gave you a reading list. I would bump the order slightly. Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" should be required reading, and I'd read that first personally.

 

Hovind spits out a lot of half truths and blatant lies, so before you accept any of his "facts", double check them for accuracy.

 

Errors can occur in radiometric dating, as they can in any field of science. That's why multiple tests are run when possible. I wouldn't get too hung up on a few wild points, as there are coroborating dating methods available. If you are even half thinking there might be truth to the young earth BS, please spend some time exploring talkorigins.

[Ouroboros]

Did any of you have a hard time going from solely "creationist" to contemplating evolution?  I'm still not so sure that I accept Darwinism, however, I am willing to study alternate view points.  Is there any middle ground between Creationism an Darwinism?

 

I'm not so sure about carbon dating as there are facts showing, for instance, that it showed a live seal being like 2,000 years old, etc.  Many more examples of live or recently dead things being carbon dated at ridiculously high ages, sometimes hundreds or thousands of years.  Also, with stalagmite (sp?), formation.  Mr. Hovind showed were there are huge formations under buildings not all that old at all.  There has to be a reasonable balance between the two most common views.

 

The funny thing is when Creationists date the Shroud from Jesus grave, they end up with almost exact year. Between 33 and 35, of course. So Carbon or whichever method used for the Shroud should be fine then. (And of course I know they just fixing the numbers, because the dating is not that exact.)

[Guest Gypsy]

hi sandy,

 

i am glad your family survived. thanks for sharing your story. my husband and i went through a time of keeping the sabbath and giving up all holidays too. we were newly married and i was starting tons of research. i came across all kinds of information about the early christians kept the sabbath and how they didn't celebrate the holidays we take for granted. so i showed all this to my husband, we spent over a year in that thinking. we lost friends over it. one relative took us to his priest so he could convince us otherwise. his argument was that it was impractical to live like this nowadays. i was starting to really feel bad about not getting to do christmas and wished he could have given us some authoritative info but he didn't. so it came back to 'well, what does the bible say?' and history, and so we did what we felt like god wanted us to do.

 

we both seemed to get tired of it at the same time and figured if we were going to hell over this, well, we'd just have to not think about it. i don't know what my h felt after, but it dragged on me for years that i was probably offending god majorly by keeping holidays. one thing my h did feel after tho was that i had been just like eve in her damn curiosity. i do tend to be interested in many many many things and he isn't. i probably ruined any chance of curiosity in him with that whole episode because now he gets angry when i tell him my new ideas on anything.

 

i like what madame m said about christians running in that direction to try to salvage some part of christianity. i can see that.

 

bravo to you for confronting the leadership on the tithing issue ! there was some guy i found thru the net who has a booklet called 'the tithe is illegal'. it was great. it showed how even in the old testament the tithe was nothing like what is preached today. i read the whole book of leviticus through in one sitting and then a few others, don't remember, maybe malachi also, and it was so eye-opening. boy these preachers seemed like a bunch of crooks after that. so i went to my pastor and told him what i had discovered. he says that he hasn't read those books in a long time!! i told him we had 1 car for 6 people, no money for the two kids birthdays coming up, no savings at the time, but yet he was going to say that we were robbing god if we didn't continue to give our 10% before taxes? he told me that without people like me and my h to give, the church would fold.

 

it was ugly. the church was ass of god and they continually brought in the heavy hitters to sucker people into making long term pledges above their tithe. and then 6 months down the road the heavy hitter would return to guilt you with anecdotal lies about how brother so and so in some far away state neglected to give his additional 15% and his multiple sclerosis returned.

 

i'm glad things turned out good for you. sounds like you have a great family

 

gypsy

[MrSpooky]

Did any of you have a hard time going from solely "creationist" to contemplating evolution?  I'm still not so sure that I accept Darwinism, however, I am willing to study alternate view points.  Is there any middle ground between Creationism an Darwinism?

 

I'm not so sure about carbon dating as there are facts showing, for instance, that it showed a live seal being like 2,000 years old, etc.  Many more examples of live or recently dead things being carbon dated at ridiculously high ages, sometimes hundreds or thousands of years.  Also, with stalagmite (sp?), formation.  Mr. Hovind showed were there are huge formations under buildings not all that old at all.  There has to be a reasonable balance between the two most common views.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

As you know, quite unfortunately, Hovind knows nothing about science and lies about scientific facts. The problem with him is that he sees a discrepancy, but never asks WHY that discrepancy exists. This is because he doesn't look into HOW carbon dating works.

 

See, here's the skinny on Carbon Dating...

 

1. The Carbon in atmospheric Carbon Cioxide, which is normally Carbon 12, is turned into a special isotope, Carbon 13 via solar radiation in the upper atmosphere. The production of C13 is relatively stead.

 

2. Carbon 13 is radioactive... it turns back into Carbon 12 at a pretty steady rate, which is why Carbon 13 has a half-life of about 5,000 years.

 

3. Carbon dioxide, some of which contains C13, is turned into solid form by plants, which take in carbon dioxide to turn into sugar. The plant now contains a certain amount of Carbon 13.

 

4. Animals eat the plants (and these animals are eaten by other animals). As a result, Carbon 13 is transferred from one creature through another.

 

5. HOWEVER, all of this Carbon 13 can be directly traced back to ATMOSPHERIC Carbon. The foundation of Carbon Dating relies on judging the quantity of how much ATMOSPHERIC carbon is fixed into a solid state and transferred from plant to animal to other animals.

 

6. All the arguments I've seen that attempt to poke holes in Carbon Dating rely on AQUATIC animals... these guys don't get their carbon from atmospheric sources, but rather from aquatic sources of dissolved CO2. Different mechanism, different quantities of Carbon 13. Using a method which is designed to date atmospheric carbon critters will of course cause a discrepancy when you use it to date aquatic carbon critters!

[MrSpooky]

Did any of you have a hard time going from solely "creationist" to contemplating evolution?  I'm still not so sure that I accept Darwinism, however, I am willing to study alternate view points.  Is there any middle ground between Creationism an Darwinism?

 

Careful not to commit the fallacy of the middle ground. Sometimes people tend to think that a compromise between two views is automatically the best one. In some cases this is true, but in science this usually is not the case at all.

[MrSpooky]

Also, with stalagmite (sp?), formation.  Mr. Hovind showed were there are huge formations under buildings not all that old at all.

 

Some kinds of minerals make stalactites and stalagmites quickly. Other kinds of minerals make them very very very slowly.

 

Creationists using these arguments choose the former, but ignore the latter.

[MrSpooky]

Oh yeah, talkorigins.org is the BEST source for evolutionary biology stuff, especially in how it addresses Creationist arguments.

[MrSpooky]

No prob. Any more questions on evolutionary biology, by all means, take them to the Science forum. We've got some terrific experts here on the matter.

[Luck Mermaid]

" Homo's probable beginnings in Africa and migrations therefrom; "

 

of course! Homo's are from Africa kill Africans! They are spreading homo!

 

;-)

[Purple Rhino]

Wow Thankful,

 

What a man you have! First and foremost bravo to your family for loving you beyond your lunatic fundieism.

 

It's nice to see you so excited to be free of the guilts, worries, laws and condemnations. Life is far to brief to spend it hiding behind a cross.

 

You can enjoy free thought while hiding behind a PC Monitor! LOL I kid I kid

 

I've enjoyed our brief exchanges and look forward to sharing more with you here at Ex-C.

 

 

May your days be filled with Wonder.

 

PR