Alice Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 This is something I am struggling with ... I have tried several times to set this out in words and it doesn't seem to flow but here goes. its as though with any set of beliefs that any group ascribe to - there seem to be rhythms underneath that are similar and have the same emotional effect on me irrespective of the words. For example ... my Father used to say to me 'when are you going to open your eyes and see what is really there? - he was referring to a faith in the God of the Bible, and (based on a certain premise) his belief in the only logical conclusion being that Jesus was the son of God A friend of mine who often challenged my christian beliefs, would say to me 'when are you going to open your eyes and see what is really there?' - he was referring to his logical arguments and interpretation of science and his belief that the universe was a random chance event and there is no God. Its like I've gone one step further at the moment and all the words are as meaningless as each other - just noises that convey the exactly same emotional response in me to the phrase 'when are you going to open your eyes' something to do with the tone it was said in - and the opportunities for emotional connection or otherwise depending how the conversation progressed. I guess this is deconstruction stuff is it? Not something I've ever been able to get my head around before - but it keeps creeping into my thinking. Along with - the fact that I think a lot more of the thought process and thinking that is claimed as 'rational' is as intertwined with emotions as much as faith based belief systems are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 This may aid you to find words to express what you are thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saviourmachine Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Beyond Language ..., do words really mean anything?Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustmouse Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Here is the thing with language... it isn't just sounds made and put together in a certain sequence. Language must have context to be viable. Say you are telling a person about a tree... they have never seen a tree (not even in a book), never heard of a tree, don't know anything about what a tree it. Now while 'tree' is a coherent utterance of sounds... a combination of breath and vocal chord stretching... and IS a word, it doesn't mean anything without the context - without knowing what a tree is. For all your companion knows, a tree is a type of book. Or television. Or car. Language is very phenomenological, and almost existential if one gets down to it. It is certainly intangible. What is important about language is not the sounds and syllables, but the conveyance... what they are meant to communicate. For example, ever see the 'Dude' commercial? Or I think is is George Carlin who does a comedy routine on the word 'fuck' ?? Words only mean anything - language only has sway - when there is a context to back it up. But that is what makes words into language... context. So words alone and of their own accord? No, they don't mean anything. But if you put context with them, then you have language. And language always means something, on some level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Cliche's like "open your eyes" tend to lose their essence as time goes by. It's like leaving a bottle of pop out for a while without the cap on. Sooner or later, the fizz will be gone. Now, the flavor of the pop is still there, but it's not quite the same. Language is kind of like that, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Hesitent, "When are you going to ______" and "How many times have I told you_____" and "What on earth made you______" and many other such questions have not only the same rhythms, but the same intent: to establish a power balance in favor of the questioner. The question is rhetorical and the questioner doesn't expect a literal answer in terms a specific date, number, etc. It's no wonder it's all beginning to sound the same to you if this is what you're picking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted May 26, 2005 Author Share Posted May 26, 2005 Hesitent, "When are you going to ______" and "How many times have I told you_____" and "What on earth made you______" and many other such questions have not only the same rhythms, but the same intent: to establish a power balance in favor of the questioner. The question is rhetorical and the questioner doesn't expect a literal answer in terms a specific date, number, etc. It's no wonder it's all beginning to sound the same to you if this is what you're picking up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's exactly it!!! I think I'm feeling that 90% of all the discussions I've ever had about 'life, the universe and everything' - what ever the belief system being advocated by the other, the intent of the conversation had very little to do with the pursuit of 'truth' and everything to do with the dance of relationships. Sometimes that has been power - as in control, other times its about the offer of connection (although still in a 'powerful' kind of way - a sort of 'agree with me and validate my words and then I will reward you with my affection/appreciation/acceptance) Having grown up in church I've watched people come in from the outside, many of whom are feeling some kind of a lack of affection/appreciation/acceptance - and seen them respond with a sort of subconscious 'wow! all I have to do is 'open my eyes' and accept these words and these people will shower me with affection/appreciation/acceptance'. The sudden and very 'enthusiastic' conversion always made me shudder and I never quite knew why. They generally left again fairly soon after feeling disgruntled, being tarred with the 'they were shallow' brush by those waving them goodbye - when it was the initial conversations that were shallow - on both sides. But I see this on the outside as well - I see it in groups of non believers - in golf clubs - in political parties - in workplaces - all over the place. It makes me suspicious of people's discussions about the 'truth' (looking back on my own participation I suspect my own motives at time as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Hesitent, I, too, often suspect my motives in this arena. It's probably why it's relatively easy for me to identify the dynamic. But you and I and anyone who truly deeply doesn't want to power-play can work on changing our own patterns of communication, no matter what others choose to do. (I think Ex-C has helped me enormously in realizing how I DON'T want to express my beliefs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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