brad_religion Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Hi Sandra, I just wanted to respond to your post at www.exchristian.net. You said to email you if we (any ex christians) had similar experiences, and I will try to share what I know. You can read my anti-testimony at ( http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2006/07...n-to-happy.html ) if you want to see where I am coming from. You said : "I really don't know where to start. I was a serious Christian when I turned 19, I think. (Of course I have heard since I am not sure of the exact date of my conversion, then I must not be really saved). I went to a spirit-filled church for five years and to other denominations before that. I stayed in the spirit-filled church because my pastor was, or is, a "prophet", or had a prophetic type gift. I was going through really hard times (emotionally). No one knew my personal life in that church at all, yet somehow he came straight to me on several different occasions to tell me things so accurate and so precise, that I was going through, that it had to be real. The things that he would prophesy were not generalized like you see from a fake fortune teller." My Response : I would first examine the pastor/prophet's way of convincing you that he knows things about you that nobody could possibly know (supposedly). Or better yet, just imagine it was not a pastor/prophet, but rather a psychic on the phone or at a carnival. Would you believe they had some supernatural ability? You didn't specify what the pastor said that convinced you they were a true prophet, so I am just going to step out on a line on this one. If you could let me know the specific things the pastor said which made you believe it was real, I might be able to better understand. You said : "I became very involved in Christianity and knew it had to be real, or I would not see these "gifts of the spirit" in operation. I have been healed of things miraculously and knew that for those things to happen, there must be a God. I have seen demon-possessed people speaking in tongues... and these people were for real. I mean there was no faking this stuff. I have actually seen someone thrown around on a floor and jerked in such a manner that their body could not have done that! I knew this person all of my life, knew them to be of sound mind, and watched their body twisted in really unnatural ways. This person could not have been faking. Freaky voices would come out of her and would say things about other people that only those other people knew at the time. She spoke in other languages and she only knows English. There were other people that knew some of these other languages and that is why everyone was so shocked that it would come out of her mouth. I would normally think, "well I guess anything can be faked," but I know this person, and she is not the type to fake, to want attention, or anything of the sort. She was disabled in her body (her mind completely sound, however), so I know she could not have contorted her body in the weird ways, and slung it around on the floor, or flipped herself over and over all around the church. These things would only happen to her when we would go to church, or watch a movie like that Mel Gibson movie that had to do with Christ." My Response : I also was involved in Christianity as you were in regards to the "gifts of the Spirit" such as speaking in tongues, supposed healings, falling backwards, lifting up hands, shaking violently, etc. As far as you being healed, you didn't specify what the illness was, if you saw a doctor, if you used medicine for it, and if the doctor couldn't explain it. If you could let me know the specifics, that would really help. As far as "demon possessed" people, you have to already have a bias in order to believe it is "demons" in the first place. For example, a psychiatrist would probably consider someone doing such things to have a mental illness of some type who believes they are demon possessed. Many schizophrenic people believe they see demons everywhere, so it is possible the person is just unmedicated. My wife works with schizophrenics and she tells me their behavior and it is identical to what you say you saw as "demon possession". It wasn't fake in the sense that it happened, but how you understood it was mistaken I believe. See, here is how it works. If you are convinced there is a god before you critically think, you will apply everything you see to the supernatural, rather than a scientific natural method. So, for example, when someone is blind or deaf, you might believe they are cursed by God or maybe they are made that way by the devil. It all depends on your specific beliefs in christianity/religion. But, anyone who critically examines why people are born blind or deaf can clearly see it is an unfortunate side effect of being so complex and highly evolved (because evolutionary biology is imperfect). A person who has no belief in gods can easily explain without excuses why bad things happen to good people, whereas the christian/theist has to make one excuse after another (which no person with rational thought would buy). If you saw these "normal" people in your type of church shaking violently of some "demonic" possession, then perhaps they were not as normal as you thought. For example, a person can seem very normal, yet it turns out they are a serial killer or child rapist. So, just because they appear one way doesn't mean they are like that all the time. Freaky voices are easy to manipulate and create (Just look at that comedian Michael Winslow who can imitate hundreds of sounds and people). And especially, if the person BELIEVES they are demon possessed, such skills come out in order to convince others that what they believe is true. Sometimes, I am so sharp in my personality skills, I can tell things about someone specifically, that turn out to be correct. It happens every now and then, yet I am not "demon possessed". It is just being able to see a person's appearance, body language, and knowing what they believe which can make it easier to do such things. And my guess is these "demon possessed" people could only do it with people they already knew at church. If they were truly demon possessed, you could experiment and bring 100 strangers from the street to them and ask them specific questions about each person. If they really have a supernatural demon in them, it should be no problem to accurately say things about each person that nobody else could know. Do you think it would happen? I highly doubt it. If this person who was "demon possessed" was not the type to fake or want attention, yet they are a christian who goes to your church, that clearly must make her "testimony" about being a believer questionable, since a christian who is demon possessed must not TRULY have the Holy Spirit (in some doctrines). This church you attended seems very extremist in how they view reality, so it would be "all or nothing" mentality. So, this person you know may have the same mentality if they are a person who goes there (or to a similar church). Perhaps, they thought they were doing something in their private life which was "bad" and felt guilty and because of the clever indoctrination of that particular church, she thought it was a "demon", which brought forth this entire extreme behaviour. You might have to specify the actual things this person is (are they a christian? Do they go to your church? Does your church teach these types of things? etc). Obviously, the body has ability to do tremendous things when the mind is "sound" or even when it is NOT sound. I don't know how you can be around someone who does such things and yet claim they are of "sound mind". Those things are clear indication they don't have all their marbles rolling around in their head. She might need medication. My advice is to have her go to a psychiatrist who can properly examine her and give her the right meds so she doesn't have to endure such things. As far as the Passion movie, it is such a disgusting piece of fiction and Gibson is good at pushing emotional buttons on people. It is a catholic movie, with catholic mysteries in the film as well (the 14 stations of the cross, the 5 sorrowful mysteries of the rosary, etc). She probably responded emotionally to "Christ" because she has been indoctrinated to believe in such things since being young (or at least sympathetic to it). You said : "Everyone was really taken aback by this. So here is the problem, I have found tons of contradictions in the Bible, only some have been answered enough to suffice. The rest I have yet to find an answer for. After coming to this site I've found more contradictions or errors that I did not even know about. I'm not sure what to do about all of this, so I simply don't go to church. It's hard to sit there with all of these questions, knowing no one will take the time to answer them, and when they do, the answers are not sufficient. I normally, by now, would have concluded Christianity as false. However, after seeing all of these supernatural things, I can not say it is false, either. I am here because I know there are a lot of Christians out there that have seen the same things, and experienced them as real—not as a hoax or what have you. I am hoping there are some ex-Christians on here that wouldn't mind emailing me if they have had the same experiences and could help bring some sort of light to the subject. Sandra" My Response : I assume you mean "everyone" being your church. This doesn't surprise me. This sounds more like a cult (which every religion technically is). Using emotionalism to "feel" some sort of supernatural euphoria is not unique to christianity. It happens in almost every religion around the world. People claim to be healed miraculously, or they have relics that somehow look like the god they worship, or they can say things about people which are specific to that person. All that proves is people will believe just about anything if the right variables are there. All that is left for you (now that you admit plainly that the bible is false because of its contradictions), is to explain those "supernatural things". I would suggest talking to a psychiatrist about these things (because they are experts on human behavior). Also, perhaps talk to people of other religions and ask them if they experience the same types of things in their religions. I would say talk to : muslims, witches, pagans, hindus, vodoons, native americans, etc. Also, ask yourself, if there IS a god, why would it let your church do such things (when they are too lazy to answer simple questions about the bible)? Why would "god" do "healings" in your church, yet not be able to do the more simple task of answering a few questions? The answer is simple. That church is based on emotionalism and people's ability to be suckered. If they were based on critical thinking or logic, they would be able to answer any questions you had about the bible. Also, ask yourself the basic questions. If the biblegod is perfect and eternal, why would it bother creating anything or anyone? Perfect means to be complete, having no needs or wants. What disrupted the equilibrium of eternity past to have some god say "I'm bored and lonely, I think I'll make a universe and small versions of myself to play with". If the biblegod WANTED to create the universe and people, then it was lacking something it wanted (which means it was imperfect). If the biblegod NEEDED to create the universe and people, then it was lacking something it needed (which means it was imperfect). There are many more questions that no Christians will probably answer (to your satisfaction) because you have opened the door to skepticism. Don't feel bad about it. You will find that as you examine christianity and the bible closer, those "supernatural" things you experienced will be shown for what they really were. They were merely highly elevated emotional states that you were in which convinced you that a natural phenomenon was supernatural. It happens to lots of people, and christians are no exception. I hope this helps you in your quest for answers. If you want to write back, feel free. Have a good day, Matthew F. Hocker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad_religion Posted August 24, 2006 Author Share Posted August 24, 2006 Hi all, this is the response I got back from this person, but I have not heard back from them since. Enjoy. Hi Sandra, thanks for writing back, I will try to respond point by point as best as I can. I apologize for not writing back right away, but this definitely takes some time to respond in such length. You said : "Hi Matthew, Thank you for taking the time to go in depth and to answer my questions. I can only answer you briefly because I have a 9 month old baby that requires a lot of my time. You had asked specifically what the pastor had said. The very first prophecy went like this. I went to the church for the first time, not knowing anyone or anyone knowing me. The pastor had said that I felt like I had committed the unpardonable sin and that Satan was telling me to curse God and die. Sounds extreme I'm sure to most people. For me however that is exactly what was happening. I had thought I had committed the unpardonable sin which is suppose to be an irreverance of some sort towards the Holy Spirit. My uncle had just been murdered (no violent crimes has ever happened in my family I was in Shock and extremely grieved). I had said to God very angrily that we must be puppets on a string to him or something of the sort and how could he let this happen. At that moment I had a thought that if God was the trinity and the trinity was God then not only was I blaspheming God at that Moment but the Holy Spirit as well." My Response : I would first say that a church pastor that uses a lot of emotionalism and psychological tricks is sometimes dead on about new people they meet. I don't know how big the church you visited was. Because depending on its size, it might be something this pastor says often, because the odds are that there is someone who believes they "blasphemed the Holy Spirit". Not only that, it is just like the "word of knowledge" on the 700 Club. Out of the many people who watch the program, the odds are there will be someone who they describe (you have a pain in your elbow) or something like that. And of course, it might have just been a matter of a lucky guess. Every now and then, I am dead on about people I have never met. That doesn't mean I am a prophet or supernatural. Just because the lottery has tremendous odds to win it, doesn't mean people won't ever win it. There are lottery winners all the time. Actually, you would be correct about God makes us "puppets on a string to him". At least, if the bible is true. You said that you thought God was a trinity, and that was "blasphemy"? I am going to go out on a limb and guess you are or were, a Oneness Pentecostal? If so, that would explain a lot of the emotionalism and psychological trickery on the part of that church. Even fellow christian churches have dismissed them as a cult. It's kind of strange to be angry at God because he let a family member get murdered, and then begin to think about christian doctrines like the trinity. What does God being a trinity have to do with a person's murder? You said : "I went into a severe depression because the bible says there is no forgiveness for this sin and then thoughts came into my mind that I was hopeless and to curse God and die. The pastor had said that I thought I had committed the unpardonable sin and that Satan was telling me to curse God and die. I feel you can't get any more exact than that. I generalisation would have been for me something like " Someone here is really depressed about something and they feel like giving up"....but his words were exact. There were many other things like that too numerous to list. I have been healed at different times of different things. Once a lady prayed for me on the phone and I was very ill from an upper repiratory infection...I mean I could hardly breathe without a lot of pain I had only had the infection for one day so in order to run it's course it would take atleast 5 days because that is how my body dealt with illness She prophesied that I was ill and I know I didn't sound sick on the phone and I also didn't tell her I was sick and she prayed and asked God to heal me and the next morning I awoke with not so much as even a sniffle , lung pain and everything gone. The rest of my family however kept their upper respiratory infection and lung pain for a whole week." My Response : Of course you went into severe depression. Christianity is well known for causing a perfectly healthy person loads of grief and depression, because they believe the nonsense that it teaches. It is unnatural to embrace many of the doctrines of christianity or similar internal cults of it. For example, the doctrine of hell is probably the most disgusting piece of fiction ever to have been invented by the church fathers. Yet, I am guessing you believed you were going to "Hell", because that church teaches hell does exist. As far as his words being exact, he has probably been confronted by church members who have children or themselves who are worried they "blasphemed the Holy Spirit". Of course, nobody can ever define what it is. Everyone has their own opinion about what constitutes it. But, the good news is that there is no "holy spirit" to blaspheme. You said you were healed different times of different things. Here is the question though. There are 6.6 billion people on planet earth. 2.2 of them are in one form of Christianity or another. How many of them are ever healed of diseases they have? Ever notice the ones who live in more modern societies tend to be healed more often? So, for every "healing" you supposedly had of supernatural phenomena, why did the same god NOT heal the millions more of the same things? You told me that you thought you blasphemed the Holy Spirit. So, why would a god heal someone who blasphemed the Holy Spirit, but not heal people who didn't? I'm not sure about that phone call with that lady. Why were you calling the number? And which church was it affilated with? These supposed personal "prophecies" are no different than calling psychics who know how to deal with the caller's emotional responses to their suggestions. The power of suggestion is very powerful. That is why people think Iraq had WMD's. Not because it had any evidence, but because the mere suggestion could justify going to war in Iraq in their eyes. Ask yourself, why does this "god" seem to love you so much more than your family? If he doesn't heal them, but supposedly heals you, what does that say about him? Another problem I have is that from everything you have said, it seems that you have the ability to fight off infections more often than others in your family. There is clearly a scientific reason for why you have more "healing" than someone else. The question is, why would "god" allow you to get "healed" after only 1 day, yet your family didn't get "healed" til 1 week later? And how is that a miracle? If there was a god, it wouldn't let you or your family get sick in the first place. However, the religious mind is convinced that even the menial, and perhaps unexplained, is somehow "proof" their specific god is watching over them. But, how would you explain the exact same things that happen in other cultures who deny Jesus Christ? How do they get healed? You said : "Another time a mole of mine had started to itch, grow, bleed, and form irregular borders. I had not had it checked out by a doctor yet; I was 23 with no insurance so running off to the doctor would have to wait. The symptoms were that of melanoma because my step father's mother had passed away from it and I knew of the disease and I had other family members with moles like that removed that were cancerous. I however can not say it was cancer because I never went to the doctor. So I got out my bible and concentrated on the verses of the bible that said Jesus took died for our healing or something like that (been a long time since reading the bible). I read it over and over and told myself to be healed I did it for about 30-45 minutes or so until I believed that he would heal me (cause without faith you won't please God). Finally I had the faith and right before my eyes my mole had shrunk to half the size and was normal in border. It no longer itched after that or bleed. Those things are very convincing for me. Other people may be able to explain them away but I can't they were real and I am of sound mind. There were many other things over the years but my baby is crying and I need to attend to him. Thanks so much for your help. Feel free to respond if you have anything to add. I will take the time a little later and read your extimony. I am looking forward to it. By the way I do not think the bible is false yet. I said I normally would conclude christianity false by now but... I have not concluded it false because I have a lot of research to do. Yesterday after looking up some contradictions that I could not explain I found the answer to one after seeing it explained in the greek. If there was an answer to that contradiciton than there might be more. Thanks again!" My Response : Regarding the "mole" you had, my question is this. If there is a god, who made you with a body, then he made you with a mole that did some nasty things. That would seem to be an imperfect creator for making such a faulty part on the body. And as you said, you didn't go to the doctor, so you were merely assuming you had some type of similar experience which might have been cancer. As far as reading the bible and concentrating on certain verses which talk about healing, that is a coping mechanism, but believe me, it is ALL YOU doing it. If you were a buddhist, you would probably meditate to focus on positive energy. If you were a hindu, you might focus on your third eye. If you were a wiccan, you might do a ceremony and cast a spell. But, you are a christian who uses the bible to be "healed". Just one problem. Why does the all powerful creator of the universe require intensive reading of the bible in order to heal someone? How did he heal people when they were once illiterate and had no "bible" to read? Also, why would God make you suffer for 30-45 minutes while reading his "word"? And if God is all knowing, why would he need to put you through that to know you had faith? Wouldn't he already know? These are the questions you need to ask before assuming "God" is giving you some special treatment. We all want to feel special it seems. We want to feel important. And if "god" is doing it, that is like the height of all importance, since God is the creator of everything. But, it sounds to me, that you were psychologically tricked by clever scam artists using Jesus and the bible. Like I said, if there is a god, why doesn't it heal everyone the same way? How do you determine you have "more" faith than someone else (in order to be healed)? You said the bible has contradictions, yet you say it is not false. How many contradictions does it need to have for you to consider it to be false? And also, if there is an all powerful, all knowing, all loving god who made the bible as his "word", why would it be so contradictory and foolish in what it says? And if christianity is based on this faulty, contradictory and foolish book, then, wouldn't christianity be the same thing? Just words for some thought. Have a good day, Matthew F. Hocker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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