Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

[♦ nivek ♦]

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing

son to Wicca.

<http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481>http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

 

 

 

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order

that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to

"non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

 

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a

balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

 

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the

unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their

fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a

mainstream religion.

 

Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's

outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol,

protested last fall.

 

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss

the pending legal dispute.

 

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential

report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides

recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones'

son attends a local Catholic school.

 

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the

belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr.

Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief

systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

 

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he

attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

 

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help

from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the

appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

 

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim,"

said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It

is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us,

including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring

equinox."

 

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents'

constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice.

Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's

beliefs and practices would harm him.

 

Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment.

She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the

Northside.

 

Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to

Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

 

"When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said

Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the

judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

 

Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals

involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip

Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture

at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

 

"Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to

them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend

to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of

Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

 

Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about

their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious

studies at Western Kentucky University.

 

"The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First

Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific

information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law

is not on his side."

 

At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of

their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he

knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his

research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

 

"Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the

parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different

faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is

different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is

attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream

activities, that raises concerns."

 

Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of

children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when

the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

 

Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk,

said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic

state representative from Indianapolis.

 

"That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the

judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other

inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could

be misconstrued."

 

The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in

February 2004.

 

As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in

worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his

son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected,

and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

 

Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything

resembling witchcraft.

 

During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil

worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves

nudity.

 

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to

everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't

believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."

 

Call Star reporter Kevin Corcoran at (317) 444-2770.

[Caretaker]

 

Some people just need some schooling.

[Ouroboros]

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

 

There goes the constitution out the window, see how it fly in the winds!

 

There's no freedom of religion anymore.

America is now a Christian Theocracy.

[Vigile]

There goes the constitution out the window, see how it fly in the winds!

 

There's no freedom of religion anymore.

America is now a Christian Theocracy.

 

 

What, we still have a constitution? I thought you all were under marshal law back there. Gotta do something to pertect agin' them terr'sts and godless comm'nsm, oops, I mean muslms.

[Ouroboros]

What, we still have a constitution?  I thought you all were under marshal law back there.  Gotta do something to pertect agin' them terr'sts and godless comm'nsm, oops, I mean muslms.

 

Well, so far it has only been words against this or that, but legal actions hasn't happened that much yet. Especially not religous matters.

 

The constitution doesn't apply for terrorist suspects anymore. But so far it was legal to have any belief you wanted. But it seems that is going too.

 

Next will be atheists, then freethinkers and then liberals. So at the end there will be only the faithful to the holy book.

[Vigile]

Well, so far it has only been words against this or that, but legal actions hasn't happened that much yet. Especially not religous matters.

 

The constitution doesn't apply for terrorist suspects anymore. But so far it was legal to have any belief you wanted. But it seems that is going too.

 

Next will be atheists, then freethinkers and then liberals. So at the end there will be only the faithful to the holy book.

 

 

If they pass the "nuclear" anti-filibuster option, you may end up with a taliban of christian judges with lifetime appointments no less. Then what you suggest may become reality. So far the option seems to have been tabled. It's going to take another cultural revolution however to turn the ship of eroding rights around. Most (a majority anyway) don't know, don't care, or are in favor of the current direction.

 

But alas, we don't want to get political here. These things usually get out of hand. I digress.

[Ouroboros]

If they pass the "nuclear" anti-filibuster option, you may end up with a taliban of christian judges with lifetime appointments no less.  Then what you suggest may become reality.  So far the option seems to have been tabled.  It's going to take another cultural revolution however to turn the ship of eroding rights around.  Most (a majority anyway) don't know, don't care, or are in favor of the current direction.

 

But alas, we don't want to get political here.  These things usually get out of hand.  I digress.

 

Yeah, I know, I'm from Sweden by the way, so the ignorance and stupidity of the masses I've seen many times before.

 

We humans, we tend to believe rather then argue. It's so much easier...

[Celsus]

Even scarier is the proposed "Constitution Restoration Act". If this passes, no government official or decision can be reviewed by courts and overruled based upon the official's imputation of religious belief into it. In short, if a judge or other official sentences someone based upon Biblical guidelines, then that cannot be a point for overturning. In effect, it establishes the United States as a theocratic society where civil law must conform to biblical law and biblical law becomes the foundation instead of the Constitution. http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/Co...torationAct.htm.

 

Bruce

[Vigile]

Even scarier is the proposed "Constitution Restoration Act". If this passes, no government official or decision can be reviewed by courts and overruled based upon the official's imputation of religious belief into it. In short, if a judge or other official sentences someone based upon Biblical guidelines, then that cannot be a point for overturning. In effect, it establishes the United States as a theocratic society where civil law must conform to biblical law and biblical law becomes the foundation instead of the Constitution. http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/Co...torationAct.htm.

 

Bruce

 

Sheesh... Ala, the taliban-like judicial appointees get their lifetime appointments and rhetoric normally pointed at Iran becomes reality in the US.

 

This trend played at least a partial role in my decision to "blow that joint." It's amazing how much freedom can be found under a broken infrastructure. I'm not sure "efficiency" and "government" are complimentary.

[Alice]

A good reason why you should put pressure on your government to sign up to the UN convention for the rights of the child (which protect a childs right to be raised in their own religion AND to leave it - at 14yrs I think -)

 

I had never considered that this might be a reason why the states has been so remiss in this.

[Biggles7268]

how can they call that a constitution restoration????

[♦ nivek ♦]

Bruce...

 

Hadn't been to that URL prior.. Bookmarked, passed onto more of the "Resistance"..

 

Loading more mags..

 

n

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

Even scarier is the proposed "Constitution Restoration Act". If this passes, no government official or decision can be reviewed by courts and overruled based upon the official's imputation of religious belief into it. In short, if a judge or other official sentences someone based upon Biblical guidelines, then that cannot be a point for overturning. In effect, it establishes the United States as a theocratic society where civil law must conform to biblical law and biblical law becomes the foundation instead of the Constitution. http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/Co...torationAct.htm.

 

Bruce

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Saddly, I can't get the link to work.

[Merlinfmct87]

Of all the stupid stunts I've heard... this has to take the cake.

 

I shudder to think what the punishment is for veering from the One True Doctrine. Iron Maiden? Thumb Screws? The pear, perhaps?

 

THE CHURCH creates those things and WE are the consorts of SATAN.

 

Fuckheads.

 

Merlin

[SilentLoner]

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order

that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to

"non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

 

how was that brought up in court in the first place?

[spamandham]

Were it me, I would do it anyway. The judge is on no legal standing with such an order, and since he failed to define "mainstream religion", who says wiccan isn't mainstream? I suspect it has more adherents than Judaism within the US.

 

Of course, I would also follow up with groups like the ICLU, ACLU, etc.

[Caretaker]

Not to mention... Where does it say in law that a kid cannot be raised in a non-mainstream religion?

[pandora]

OMG! I am so embarrassed, that is my hometown! Ack! I NEED TO MOVE!

[Thurisaz]

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the

belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . [...]

 

Okay then, drop that parochial school.

[Thurisaz]

Even scarier is the proposed "Constitution Restoration Act". If this passes, no government official or decision can be reviewed by courts and overruled based upon the official's imputation of religious belief into it.

 

*starts to sharpen his Katana*

 

*fights a perverse urge to look at an image of the shrub (or jeezuz, for that matter) and shout "Sieg Heil"*

[imageownershipproblem]

Bookmarked, passed onto more of the "Resistance"..

 

Thanks, n; guess I'd better go hit the other end of the politcal spectrum....or the faction of the "Resistance" that perceives themselves that way anyway....

 

btw, this isn't a cute handle, just a simple statement of facts.

[imageownershipproblem]

**Don't know how to delete accidentally duplicated post**

[LadyFeline]

how was that brought up in court in the first place?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have no idea. Both parents are Wiccan, so there wasn't a conflict there. I think the judge is just a bigoted fuckwit bastard.

 

Say, should I manage to acqure contact information on this backwards asshat, how many people would like to write letters telling him how wrong he is and that he needs to apologize, overturn the ruling, and step down, seeing as how there are no laws on the books to defend his ruling?

[Merlinfmct87]

I have no idea. Both parents are Wiccan, so there wasn't a conflict there. I think the judge is just a bigoted fuckwit bastard.

 

Say, should I manage to acqure contact information on this backwards asshat, how many people would like to write letters telling him how wrong he is and that he needs to apologize, overturn the ruling, and step down, seeing as how there are no laws on the books to defend his ruling?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sign me up!

 

Merlin

[Stormwarden]

If you guys have a "Resistance," Count me in.

 

My destiny is not for any church to decide. Nor will it ever be. What is happening with the incident in Indianapolis and in the perversion of jurisprudence called the "Constitution Restoration Act" is an abomination.