Why Did Christians Add To The Torah?

[Ramen666]

Hard question for Christians maybe someone will know on here. Why did Christians create the New Testament in the first place and take away from the Torah. Why did they insist on adding their own material.

 

I don't believe that either doctrine is right, The Torah, or The Bible but that has been bothering me. Why is their a New Testament yet Jews believe in it. The Torah did technically come first and if one was right wouldn't it be the Torah.

 

Christians view The Book of Mormon as a bad thing....it was created by man. Wasn't the New Testament done the same way? Maybe I am missing something but wouldn't if one religion be correct wouldn't the Jews have higher ground over the Christians since the Christians just modified their text.

[KT45]

I'm probably wrong but I'll take a stab. The gospels were probably written based off of the myths of some of the failed messiahs. The desire to actually create a book based off of these myths were probably strong due to Rome's conquest over the area.

 

I don't think my explanation is totally correct since it doesn't explain why it was tailored to gentiles.

 

Other theory is that the gospel is merely a parody of one of Homer's books.

 

That's the best I can do

[Scott]

Hard question for Christians maybe someone will know on here. Why did Christians create the New Testament in the first place and take away from the Torah. Why did they insist on adding their own material.

 

I don't believe that either doctrine is right, The Torah, or The Bible but that has been bothering me. Why is their a New Testament yet Jews believe in it. The Torah did technically come first and if one was right wouldn't it be the Torah.

 

Christians view The Book of Mormon as a bad thing....it was created by man. Wasn't the New Testament done the same way? Maybe I am missing something but wouldn't if one religion be correct wouldn't the Jews have higher ground over the Christians since the Christians just modified their text.

 

Because the Torah describes the Messiah and Jesus is the Messiah. So, you have the First Covenant, when they had to sacrifice to God an animal {perhaps a lamb} to cover their sins. Then you have the New Covenant when Jesus was the Lamb of God. His sacrifce took away our sins; that is to say, He takes away the sins of those who accept His sacrifice.

[chefranden]

The short answer is that the NT Canon was compiled to standardize the faith in the interest of political power to help stablelize Constintine's Empire.

[Taphophilia]

The short answer is that the NT Canon was compiled to standardize the faith in the interest of political power to help stablelize Constintine's Empire.

 

I agree with Chef. There are many, many early Chistian writings not just the books we have in the NT. Early Christians were more varied in their beliefs than even within the denominations that exist today and their writings reflected this. A good book to read is "Lost Christianities" by Bart D Ehrman which explains how the form of Christianity that exists today won out. Another great book also by Ehrman is "Misquoting Jesus".

[Ramen666]

Because the Torah describes the Messiah and Jesus is the Messiah. So, you have the First Covenant, when they had to sacrifice to God an animal {perhaps a lamb} to cover their sins. Then you have the New Covenant when Jesus was the Lamb of God. His sacrifce took away our sins; that is to say, He takes away the sins of those who accept His sacrifice.

 

That doesn't answer why did they add to the Jews text. But the Jews don't believe The Testament. The Jewish religion still exsists today but they believe in only The Old Testament( which was first). I am saying if one had more credibilty it would be the Torah not the Bible. The Christians added to the Torah is still not justified. Why is there Jewish religion and Christians. The story in them is indeed false in both. However that is like The Muslims adding another part to Book of Mormon. Becuase of a reason I wasn't given yet Scott. Let's just play with the Old Testament. Why are their still two versions. Jews don't like the New Testament ( well because they added to the Torah) Just like the Mormons made The Book of Mormon ( Bible II).

 

WHY THE FUCK IS GOD OBSESSED WITH ANIMAL SACRAFICES AND BLOOD. THAT IS A FUCKING SICK MONSTER.WHY WOULD GOD NEED SACRAFICES? A LOT OF PEOPLE MUST BE IN HELL WHO DIDN'T DO THAT BEFORE THE BIBLE WAS MADE. SACRAFICE AND ANIMAL AND NOT GO TO HELL. ( OLD VERSION OF HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN) ( NEW VERSION- BELIEVE IN ME OR GO TO HELL). GOD IS GOOD A REAL GOOD PAL. SCOTT WHAT A SAP...

[Scott]

Because the Torah describes the Messiah and Jesus is the Messiah. So, you have the First Covenant, when they had to sacrifice to God an animal {perhaps a lamb} to cover their sins. Then you have the New Covenant when Jesus was the Lamb of God. His sacrifce took away our sins; that is to say, He takes away the sins of those who accept His sacrifice.

 

That doesn't answer why did they add to the Jews text. But the Jews don't believe The Testament. The Jewish religion still exsists today but they believe in only The Old Testament( which was first). I am saying if one had more credibilty it would be the Torah not the Bible. The Christians added to the Torah is still not justified. Why is there Jewish religion and Christians. The story in them is indeed false in both. However that is like The Muslims adding another part to Book of Mormon. Becuase of a reason I wasn't given yet Scott. Let's just play with the Old Testament. Why are their still two versions. Jews don't like the New Testament ( well because they added to the Torah) Just like the Mormons made The Book of Mormon ( Bible II).

 

WHY THE FUCK IS GOD OBSESSED WITH ANIMAL SACRAFICES AND BLOOD. THAT IS A FUCKING SICK MONSTER.WHY WOULD GOD NEED SACRAFICES? A LOT OF PEOPLE MUST BE IN HELL WHO DIDN'T DO THAT BEFORE THE BIBLE WAS MADE. SACRAFICE AND ANIMAL AND NOT GO TO HELL. ( OLD VERSION OF HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN) ( NEW VERSION- BELIEVE IN ME OR GO TO HELL). GOD IS GOOD A REAL GOOD PAL. SCOTT WHAT A SAP...

 

Mostly Jews wrote the New Testament. Also, have you ever heard of a Messianic Jew? Jews are famous for not believing the New Testament, but there are Jewish Christians out there. As far as the rant, I've told you before why God requires sacrifices, and why people go to hell.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

However that is like The Muslims adding another part to Book of Mormon.

 

Muslims adding to The Book of Mormons. Thats scary. The Latter-Day Saints of Jesus Christ might be upset about that.

 

 

 

Jews don't like the New Testament ( well because they added to the Torah)

 

The jews dont like the new Testament because they dont believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God, or of any type of divine heritage to the God of Israel, in which the Nt represents.

 

 

Just like the Mormons made The Book of Mormon ( Bible II).

 

 

Made? or what they believe was handed to them. just like the Jews Torah, Christians NT, Muslims Quaran. Its called belief.

 

WHY THE FUCK IS GOD OBSESSED WITH ANIMAL SACRAFICES AND BLOOD. THAT IS A FUCKING SICK MONSTER.WHY WOULD GOD NEED SACRAFICES? A LOT OF PEOPLE MUST BE IN HELL WHO DIDN'T DO THAT BEFORE THE BIBLE WAS MADE. SACRAFICE AND ANIMAL AND NOT GO TO HELL. ( OLD VERSION OF HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN) ( NEW VERSION- BELIEVE IN ME OR GO TO HELL). GOD IS GOOD A REAL GOOD PAL. SCOTT WHAT A SAP...

 

You ok? Scott veiw is a little fundy, churchy, straight from the pastors mouth. Whats up with the whole Hell thing?

[Ramen666]

Hell is the reason that their are Christians still Christian they fear the eternal roaster. They fear death...They fear Satan and God's wrath....I am going by what the Babble said for itself.

 

A perfect God shouldn't need sarcafices to be perfect that shows he is a weak. He can't do anything. not help me and not help anyone else.

 

Because he doesn't exsist

[Scott]

Hell is the reason that their are Christians still Christian they fear the eternal roaster. They fear death...They fear Satan and God's wrath....I am going by what the Babble said for itself.

 

A perfect God shouldn't need sarcafices to be perfect that shows he is a weak. He can't do anything. not help me and not help anyone else.

 

Because he doesn't exsist

 

I don't fear the "eternal roaster" as you put it, because I am a Christian. Also, Christians are not afraid of Satan or the wrath of God. You have all this backwards. As far as death, I am a little nervous about it. Not because I have any doubts about where I'm going, but because I'm going to be stadning before Almighty God.

 

 

 

However that is like The Muslims adding another part to Book of Mormon.

 

Muslims adding to The Book of Mormons. Thats scary. The Latter-Day Saints of Jesus Christ might be upset about that.

 

 

 

Jews don't like the New Testament ( well because they added to the Torah)

 

The jews dont like the new Testament because they dont believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God, or of any type of divine heritage to the God of Israel, in which the Nt represents.

 

 

Just like the Mormons made The Book of Mormon ( Bible II).

 

 

Made? or what they believe was handed to them. just like the Jews Torah, Christians NT, Muslims Quaran. Its called belief.

 

WHY THE FUCK IS GOD OBSESSED WITH ANIMAL SACRAFICES AND BLOOD. THAT IS A FUCKING SICK MONSTER.WHY WOULD GOD NEED SACRAFICES? A LOT OF PEOPLE MUST BE IN HELL WHO DIDN'T DO THAT BEFORE THE BIBLE WAS MADE. SACRAFICE AND ANIMAL AND NOT GO TO HELL. ( OLD VERSION OF HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN) ( NEW VERSION- BELIEVE IN ME OR GO TO HELL). GOD IS GOOD A REAL GOOD PAL. SCOTT WHAT A SAP...

 

You ok? Scott veiw is a little fundy, churchy, straight from the pastors mouth. Whats up with the whole Hell thing?

 

I don't have a Pastor. I do meet with one weekly, but I'm looking for another church. We talk, and I do learn things, but I don't just parrot what he says. I study the Bible myself and what I believe it to mean, along with the opinions of others. Now, when you said "What's up with the whole Hell thing?" was this addressed to me, or Ramen?

[Abiyoyo]

Hell is the reason that their are Christians still Christian they fear the eternal roaster. They fear death...They fear Satan and God's wrath....I am going by what the Babble said for itself.

 

A perfect God shouldn't need sarcafices to be perfect that shows he is a weak. He can't do anything. not help me and not help anyone else.

 

Because he doesn't exsist

 

 

Ramen- I used to be a business man, still am in many ways. Have you ever heard of the phrase "trimming the fat"? Sometimes, the bottom line is that. The meat of the subject. The bottom line is that, personally, I can't tell you what happens after my lifespan is over; and neither can anyone else. That is something human beings can't identify, or relate with. Thats why it makes us sad when someone dies. If it were a scientifically proven fact that a certain thing,place is designated, contact with that human, etc. happens after death and we could actually experience this before the death of a human and observe it physically; then death probually wouldnt be so feared in general. But, thats the thing; it isn't that way.

 

Religion, for the most part, is suppose to give hope that there is life after physical death. I do know that there are sects that preach the Eternal Hellfire approach, yet there are the sects that preach the infilling of the Holy Spirit, be free and empowered by God, walking in the Spirit, sects of Christianity.

[KT45]

I don't fear the "eternal roaster" as you put it, because I am a Christian. Also, Christians are not afraid of Satan or the wrath of God.

Not true. It depends on what you are taught. If you believe the "once saved always saved" and that you got a speed ticket to heaven then I can see why your not scared.

 

But if you believe that you can't enter heaven with "spot or wrinkle" then you are constantly in fear of not doing gods will and god sending you to hell if you end dying before you can repent. (Oh and don't give me any crap about christians shouldn't be sinning in the first place. People aren't perfect and you learn new sins you aren't supposed to do everyday. I was constantly taught that actions that might cause you to do a real sin was itself a sin! So I was in constant fear because I didn't know if I was doing a sin or not. I also thought fantasizing about women was lust so I felt I was constantly sinning! I definently had a reason to fear.)

 

You also fear the eternal roaster because he will send your family to hell. So you don't want your loving Jesus to send dear old loving mom to hell because she isn't saved.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

I don't have a Pastor. I do meet with one weekly, but I'm looking for another church. We talk, and I do learn things, but I don't just parrot what he says. I study the Bible myself and what I believe it to mean, along with the opinions of others. Now, when you said "What's up with the whole Hell thing?" was this addressed to me, or Ramen?

 

You dont have a Pastor, but you are looking for "another" church, in lue of speaking on a weekly basis with a pastor?

 

The Hell thing was more toward Ramen and his backlash in anger issues.

 

I will ask this to you Scott, just to open your thought a little. Why did God ask Isaiah, "Who told you to do these things?".

 

 

Isa 1:11-12

11 "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats.

12 "When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courts?

(NKJ)

[Scott]

I don't fear the "eternal roaster" as you put it, because I am a Christian. Also, Christians are not afraid of Satan or the wrath of God.

Not true. It depends on what you are taught. If you believe the "once saved always saved" and that you got a speed ticket to heaven then I can see why your not scared.

 

But if you believe that you can't enter heaven with "spot or wrinkle" then you are constantly in fear of not doing gods will and god sending you to hell if you end dying before you can repent. (Oh and don't give me any crap about christians shouldn't be sinning in the first place. People aren't perfect and you learn new sins you aren't supposed to do everyday. I was constantly taught that actions that might cause you to do a real sin was itself a sin! So I was in constant fear because I didn't know if I was doing a sin or not. I also thought fantasizing about women was lust so I felt I was constantly sinning! I definently had a reason to fear.)

 

You also fear the eternal roaster because he will send your family to hell. So you don't want your loving Jesus to send dear old loving mom to hell because she isn't saved.

 

Salvation has two steps. One step is coming to Jesus with a repentant heart and asking Him to be your Lord and Savior. After this is done, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the Day of Redemption. After Jesus comes back and receives us to Himself, our salvation will be complete. I do not believe in the once saved, always saved theory. I heard from someone in my previous church say that once we are saved, we're saved. We can even go crazy a minute later, go out a kill someone, and we're still saved. I do not, at all, believe this. If a person did that, he wouldn't have had a true repentant heart. It would be just like getting a ticket to heaven, so now you can do whatever you want to. It doesn't work that way. Now, we are supposed to fear the Lord. But not like "OH, I wonder if I'm gonna make it into heaven! I know I have trusted in Jesus and repented of my sins, but I'm still not sure if I'll make it!!!". Right there...That is evidence of not trusting in Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior. I am not afraid of Hell, because I trust in Jesus.

 

I am not afraid of God's wrath, because I am covered in the blood of Christ. I do not fear Satan because the Holy Spirit is within me, and the Lord Himself has given His follows power over them. What you said before about me not saying "Christians shouldn't be sinning in the first place"...I wouldn't say this, because I don't believe this. We all sin. I am a sinner. However, we are to strive, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not to sin. We are to resist temptation by the power of God. Also, if we live in constant fear of sinning, or stepping out of place, we are putting very low measures on the grace of God. The Bible says if we know to do good, and do not do it, then it is sin. Also, to much is given, much is required. God will judge righteously. About the last statement, are you directing that at me, or is it just a statement in general? My mom is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Although I do have some other family members who are not Christians. You're right, I don't want them to go to hell. What I meant when I said I wasn't afraid of hell, was that I know I'm not going. What I can do for my unsaved family members is pray for them, and witness to them. Just leave it up to God I guess.

 

 

 

I don't have a Pastor. I do meet with one weekly, but I'm looking for another church. We talk, and I do learn things, but I don't just parrot what he says. I study the Bible myself and what I believe it to mean, along with the opinions of others. Now, when you said "What's up with the whole Hell thing?" was this addressed to me, or Ramen?

 

You dont have a Pastor, but you are looking for "another" church, in lue of speaking on a weekly basis with a pastor?

 

The Hell thing was more toward Ramen and his backlash in anger issues.

 

I will ask this to you Scott, just to open your thought a little. Why did God ask Isaiah, "Who told you to do these things?".

 

 

Isa 1:11-12

11 "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats.

12 "When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courts?

(NKJ)

 

Yeah, me and the Pastor stated meeting before I stopped going to church. After we finish up with the studies, I'll find another church...Or return to the same church. I'm haven't decided.

 

I'm not sure about the biblical question. From reading on until chapter two, it seems like what is being said is a prophecy of the future, when we will no longer need sacrifices and offerings.

[KT45]

I do not believe in the once saved, always saved theory.

 

We all sin. I am a sinner. However, we are to strive, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not to sin. We are to resist temptation by the power of God.

 

Can't you see how some would be fearful? Imagine you are someone with a very high sex drive. No matter how much you repent or tell god to help you you still have lust in your heart. Can you see how a person like this would fear hell? Repenting doesn't help too much because when you repent you are supposed to do your best not to sin again. As long as lust is a sin it comes back. The person will basically fear that there heart isn't the right place.

 

I find it strange that you believe that NO christians should or would fear hell. Especially with all the made up sins going around. Dancing is sinful (because all dancing is sexual, I mean if it wasn't why won't guys dance with girls: I was feed shit like this!!!). Smokings a sin, yoga is a sin, not having a woman wear head coverings is a sin. The bible is huge so preahers can make almost anything a sin if they want. I can easily see why christians would fear hell

[Scott]

I do not believe in the once saved, always saved theory.

 

We all sin. I am a sinner. However, we are to strive, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not to sin. We are to resist temptation by the power of God.

 

Can't you see how some would be fearful? Imagine you are someone with a very high sex drive. No matter how much you repent or tell god to help you you still have lust in your heart. Can you see how a person like this would fear hell? Repenting doesn't help too much because when you repent you are supposed to do your best not to sin again. As long as lust is a sin it comes back. The person will basically fear that there heart isn't the right place.

 

I find it strange that you believe that NO christians should or would fear hell. Especially with all the made up sins going around. Dancing is sinful (because all dancing is sexual, I mean if it wasn't why won't guys dance with girls: I was feed shit like this!!!). Smokings a sin, yoga is a sin, not having a woman wear head coverings is a sin. The bible is huge so preahers can make almost anything a sin if they want. I can easily see why christians would fear hell

 

...been there, done that. Sometimes we may repent of sins, but they just keep coming back. Christ understands how hard it is to resist temptation. But we are to have a nature of repentance, and truly strive to please Him.

I don't believe dancing and a woman not wearing head coverings is a sin. Smoking may or may not be a sin. It's plain to see it's not good for you. And I haven't studied enough about yoga to have any opinion if that's a sin or not.

[Ramen666]

That's because there is no such thing as sin. Only in Christian logic there is sin. I agree with you for the first time Scott those arn't sins. Pride is not a sin. ( I don't see how it could be). Lust is not a sin either.

[KT45]

I don't believe dancing and a woman not wearing head coverings is a sin.

But the bible commands women to wear covering on there head. Not doing it is a sin.

[Open_Minded]

And I haven't studied enough about yoga to have any opinion if that's a sin or not.

 

 

 

 

[Thackerie]

And I haven't studied enough about yoga to have any opinion if that's a sin or not.

 

 

 

 

 

No joke: Yoga has been identified as a means for proselytizing christians into evil, heathen eastern religions by some "god-fearing" woman who is marketing a "christian alternative" called "praise moves." All of the physical benefits with none of the sin! Glory!

 

http://www.praisemoves.com/

[Open_Minded]

And I haven't studied enough about yoga to have any opinion if that's a sin or not.

 

 

No joke: Yoga has been identified as a means for proselytizing christians into evil, heathen eastern religions by some "god-fearing" woman who is marketing a "christian alternative" called "praise moves." All of the physical benefits with none of the sin! Glory!

 

http://www.praisemoves.com/

 

Yah.... it doesn't surprise me. But, seriously.........

 

Good grief - the woman you linked to would think the way I meditate (and it's straight out of the Christian tradition - John of the Cross, Cloud of Unknowing, etc...) is filled with the devil.... I've reached a point where all I can do is laugh at the idiocy of it all.

 

[Amanda]

 

 

Ramen666, I think the reason for the New Testament then is about the same reason we need another new one now.

 

Perhaps the initial movement creating the NT was much like the ExChristian movement now... only ExJews. The initial intent of the OT, to embody something to hold sacred amongst ALL mankind, got lost in man's spin of using it for one's own agenda and self elitist mentality. The NT seems to be about changing the concept of a God out there somewhere, to one that is inside of us... "ye too are gods". I would say a lot these teachings ushered in a lot of positive aspects created in the Atheist movement. The NT is really about self empowerment. Now, it seems as the the NT has done the same course as the OT, losing sight of its initial intent, and maybe people such as those right here on ExC, will bring in a more use-able version for our times?

 

Taylork45, I think you are hitting home in challenging people on their beliefs in hell. I think this is the single most damaging aspect to sustaining brainwashing. IMO, the war between heaven and hell is within us.

 

Open Minded, please keep on meditating! I've heard that it does a lot of wonderful things for all people. Gosh... I keep wishing I had patience to do that.

[roman]

The short answer is that the NT Canon was compiled to standardize the faith in the interest of political power to help stablelize Constintine's Empire.

 

I agree with Chef. There are many, many early Chistian writings not just the books we have in the NT. Early Christians were more varied in their beliefs than even within the denominations that exist today and their writings reflected this. A good book to read is "Lost Christianities" by Bart D Ehrman which explains how the form of Christianity that exists today won out. Another great book also by Ehrman is "Misquoting Jesus".

I agree with Taph in agreeing with Chef, who has it right. I also have Ehrman's books, btw.

[Antlerman]

Perhaps the initial movement creating the NT was much like the ExChristian movement now... only ExJews. The initial intent of the OT, to embody something to hold sacred amongst ALL mankind, got lost in man's spin of using it for one's own agenda and self elitist mentality. The NT seems to be about changing the concept of a God out there somewhere, to one that is inside of us... "ye too are gods". I would say a lot these teachings ushered in a lot of positive aspects created in the Atheist movement. The NT is really about self empowerment. Now, it seems as the the NT has done the same course as the OT, losing sight of its initial intent, and maybe people such as those right here on ExC, will bring in a more use-able version for our times?

Now you are talking my language. I think what you see going on with Christianity in the industrialized nations is it trying to find its voice to speak to the world. The rise of fundamentalism in these nations is symptomatic of this implosion that is going on. I posted some more involved thoughts on this in this post here which you can read if you are interested in this: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=202180

 

Personally, what I see being the philosophy that will speak to the world is humanism. I suppose if anything I would identify with personally it is humanism. Here's a brief explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

[Amanda]

I think what you see going on with Christianity in the industrialized nations is it trying to find its voice to speak to the world. The rise of fundamentalism in these nations is symptomatic of this implosion that is going on. I posted some more involved thoughts on this in this post here which you can read if you are interested in this: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=202180

 

Antlerman, I agree with you in many regards, as usual... however, I don't think modern Christianity is trying to hold onto the past so much... as it is frozen in fear of the morals and beliefs instilled precariously by the concept of a literal hell.

 

Personally, what I see being the philosophy that will speak to the world is humanism. I suppose if anything I would identify with personally it is humanism. Here's a brief explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

 

I think humanism has a big piece of the puzzle, however, I do think that transcendental concepts do have a legitimate place in society. There are many things that are happening that we don't have rational reasoning to explain them, nor justify them. Still, they may exist, as we don't know EVERYTHING. IMHO, we may still be developing other senses. If the first beings getting the sense of sight were able to perceive something before bumping into it, however, it may not have been able to be recognized and neurally connected as efficiently as today, would it be wise to just dismiss it as fantasy? What would have happened if we were cognizant enough then to decide to deny the ability of sight's existence as being valid and decided NOT to trust it at all? :ohmy: