spamandham Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Why should I have to define in comprehensible terms what someone else claims to believe in? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It isn't your responsibility to define it, but if you deny it, it's your responsibility to make sure you know what it is you're denying, by placing the burdon back on them to define what it is they claim exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 It wasn't that I was offended though I was a little defensive, partly because I thought you were being bloody rude and I still do to some extent. You do come across as someone who feels that your own views are the correct ones and everyone else here is wrong. I myself may be wrong in that though. You are wrong. This is a forum, and I ask questions about peoples beliefs that I find contrary to what I think is true. If someone chooses to believe in a Sentient Creator or be a Deist then that is up to them, that is why I was not happy with your line in questioning. I have now moved into an Atheistic perspective because what you said made me question my own views, it's not because I feel I have to bow down to what you feel is correct. Of course it is up to them, if they don't want their beliefs questioned then they shouldn't post. It's a debate arena...what do you expect? I'm not asking you to bow down to what I feel is correct. Holy fucking shit man, persecution complex much? I'm not attacking your beliefs!! I asked you a simple fucking question and you start braying like a branded mule....jesus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 It isn't your responsibility to define it, but if you deny it, it's your responsibility to make sure you know what it is you're denying, by placing the burdon back on them to define what it is they claim exists. Which is what I do, spamandham. So far they have been unable to provide any Primary Characteristics of what a god is. All I get are: Creator Omnipotent Omniscient Omnipresent Loving Merciful Just Infinite Incomprehensible Spirit Supernatural Eternal (timeless) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAm_Lucifer Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here about "Order." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What exactly does "order" mean when used to describe the world? Isn't order subjective? I do not see any "order". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I would agree that order is subjective. It depends upon your perspective. A fundie would say that there's only good and evil. Someone else might say there's good, evil, and neutrality. Another person might say there is neither good nor evil, only neutrality. It all depends on how you see things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Which is what I do, spamandham. So far they have been unable to provide any Primary Characteristics of what a god is. All I get are: Creator Omnipotent Omniscient Omnipresent Loving Merciful Just Infinite Incomprehensible Spirit Supernatural Eternal (timeless) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No problem then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [i've moved away from my belief in a Sentient Creator, not just because of Asimov's challenging but because I really, seriously thought about it and realised that my need to believe was because I needed comfort, a sense of there being some kind of order within things. I've never believed in anything after life but I found the thought of us just here and then gone frightening and needed there to be some sense of 'something' otherwise it would have all been too much for me.] Perhaps you may consider challenging "religion" and still seek that which is called spirituality. How can those who worship the Bible instead of the creator ever know the creator? It seems to me that they are more lost than the atheist. The most well documented parapsychological experience is an "out of body" experience. There have been many legitimized reports of those who were able to leave their body and return. How about these many cases that seem to legitimize "past lives" experiences also? Are we just chemical interactions sealed in skin? If so, then every cell dies and is regenerated in a seven year period... so how can one remember events past seven years into their history? Stephen Hawkins, a very prominent scientist, as well as Albert Einstien says that time does not exist. Stephen Hawkins asks, if time does not exist, then how can there be a creator? (Video "A Brief History of Time) Could it be that the beginning and the end form a circle? Could God be the beginning, the end, and everything in between? Is it possible that everything that exists be a part of God? Additionally, is everything connected to each other at some deeper level which can be sensed by sensory perceptions beyond the five senses we now acknowledge? We've evolved from the crowmagnum man to whom we are today, so what direction are we evolving now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Out of body experiences have been debunked. I don't think that cells have anything to do with past lives, either. Not to say they don't exist, since they haven't been proven either way yet, but there's no link there. We just don't really understand a lot of things about the human body yet, I think. out-of-body experience (OBE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpooky Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 What exactly does "order" mean when used to describe the world? Isn't order subjective? I do not see any "order". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Order is subjective ONLY to the extent that one defines the term, which is true of every word. Calling order "subjective" is a bit of a tautology in this sense. By Order, I mean the fact that an existing object must have discrete, describable properties such that it exhibits causal behavior in accordance with those properties. See my Order VS Chaos thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Which is what I do, spamandham. So far they have been unable to provide any Primary Characteristics of what a god is. All I get are: Creator Omnipotent Omniscient Omnipresent Loving Merciful Just Infinite Incomprehensible Spirit Supernatural Eternal (timeless) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Asimov. I am not very brainy yet, but I just don't understand why Christians use philosphy to defend thier god when most everything on this list contradicts what we see in what a portion of humanity has to live with everyday ( if they survive famine, diseases, natural disasters.., this list contradicts the biblical accunts of thier god, and some of the omniattributes contradict eachother. Its silly. They build in misty bogs that obscure scriptural accounts and accounts of the human condition. Merciful? Loving? Just? Silly! The deists have integrity, but the Christians definately do not. I think the Christians use philosophy to cover up the bibles inconsistencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpooky Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 The deists have integrity, but the Christians definately do not. I think the Christians use philosophy to cover up the bibles inconsistencies. It's an attempt that sometimes looks good on the surface, but when you get a little deeper it kinda falls apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 Perhaps you may consider challenging "religion" and still seek that which is called spirituality. How can those who worship the Bible instead of the creator ever know the creator? It seems to me that they are more lost than the atheist. Something equally as meaningless is what is known as spirituality. What is spirituality? The most well documented parapsychological experience is an "out of body" experience. There have been many legitimized reports of those who were able to leave their body and return. How about these many cases that seem to legitimize "past lives" experiences also? Are we just chemical interactions sealed in skin? If so, then every cell dies and is regenerated in a seven year period... so how can one remember events past seven years into their history? Of course it's well-documented, we can induce them! Just because it seems like an OBE doesn't mean you are actually out of your body. Stephen Hawkins, a very prominent scientist, as well as Albert Einstien says that time does not exist. Stephen Hawkins asks, if time does not exist, then how can there be a creator? (Video "A Brief History of Time) Could it be that the beginning and the end form a circle? Could God be the beginning, the end, and everything in between? Is it possible that everything that exists be a part of God? Additionally, is everything connected to each other at some deeper level which can be sensed by sensory perceptions beyond the five senses we now acknowledge? We've evolved from the crowmagnum man to whom we are today, so what direction are we evolving now? blah blah blah....silly conjecture. It still doesn't answer what God is, it still doesn't answer what spirituality is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 Asimov. I am not very brainy yet, but I just don't understand why Christians use philosphy to defend thier god when most everything on this list contradicts what we see in what a portion of humanity has to live with everyday ( if they survive famine, diseases, natural disasters.., this list contradicts the biblical accunts of thier god, and some of the omniattributes contradict eachother. Its silly. They build in misty bogs that obscure scriptural accounts and accounts of the human condition. Merciful? Loving? Just? Silly! The deists have integrity, but the Christians definately do not. I think the Christians use philosophy to cover up the bibles inconsistencies. I know, it's bullshit....but this is what they give... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 What is spirituality? I would define it as belief in some sort of godlike being, but without a bunch of dogmatic, religious strings attached. IMHO, you have to be a theist of some sort to be spiritual, though. I personally don't think that one can be an atheist and spiritual. Spirituality implies belief in something out there, even if you can't put what it is into words. I think the Christians use philosophy to cover up the bibles inconsistencies. Yeah, or at least, what they try to pass off as philosophy, and what was plagiarized from the ancients. I'd rather be philosophical than religious. At least, philosophy doesn't require blind faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Yeah, or at least, what they try to pass off as philosophy, and what was plagiarized from the ancients. I'd rather be philosophical than religious. At least, philosophy doesn't require blind faith. Amen to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Asimov What is spirituality? Why not hijack the word from the superstitionists and give it meaning? The word spirit can mean emotions. "High Spirits" "Get into the spirit" We can get the same deep feelings that the religionists get. No gods or superstition needed. We get them when we are close to someone, when we anticipate what will make someone smile, investing faith in a stranger even though they may betray you is spiritual to me. Giving someone a second chance? We don't have to go overboard with these things but do you katch my drift? Trying to understand someone is spiritual in my book. We all do these things and it feels good. Honoring Humanity in hopes that it gets contagious. What other word can we give these things that stir deep feelings in us all? I have hijacked the word from them, it isn't doing much being a meaningless word. Sorry for interupting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Asimov What is spirituality? Why not hijack the word from the superstitionists and give it meaning? The word spirit can mean emotions. "High Spirits" "Get into the spirit" Yeah! I vote for that. A Cosmopolitan spirit, or Crown Royal Spirit, or Drambuie Spirit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Yea I know, I am a flaming humanist. Hehe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Yeah! I vote for that. A Cosmopolitan spirit, or Crown Royal Spirit, or Drambuie Spirit... Yea I know, I am a flaming humanist. Hehe! The poster above have problems with his quotes! And you can quote me on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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