Christians - does this seem right to you?

[Mythra]

O.K. -

I have a question. God (Yah-way) supposedly is omniscient. That means he knows all things. All things past, present, and future. That means as he was considering this whole sacrificial lamb Passion-of-the-Christ thing, the whole redemption plan, the whole easter sunday parade, he KNEW ahead of time what would follow.

 

He saw the Crusades, the Inquisition, the whole Roman Catholic worship Mother-Of-God thing. He saw the Nazi Holocaust, he saw the Dark Ages, he saw grilled cheese Mary sandwiches selling on Ebay. He saw, well, Jerry Falwell.

 

He KNEW all of this would develop out of his little plan. And God said, Yah, I LIKE IT. LET'S DO IT..

 

Now, does this seem right to you? I really want to know what professing Christians think about this. Don't quote me scripture. I'm pretty well versed in

my knowledge of the Bible after 25 years.

 

I want to know what you THINK. If you have to look it up, don't bother to respond.

[I Broke Free]

Few Christians look at the whole picture Mythra. Most are content to only see how God’s “plan” will affect them personally.

 

I have often pondered the same question you posed. If an omnipotent being “knows” what will happen if he creates humanity, then that being is ultimately responsible for the outcome. What is the ultimate outcome? A small minority of humans will become slaves to his ego; worshipping him for eternity. The remainder will suffer for an eternity in a hell he created. If that is the case, then why create us in the first place? It is either bad theology, or a load of bullshit.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Add to IBF's comments the fact that yahweh had gotten along just fine without us for an eternity (he supposedly has no beginning).

 

What made him decide about six thousand years ago that it was finally time to create some playthings? Especially, as Mythra has pointed out, knowing that such bad things were in store for most of us.

 

Doesn't make sense.

[Ouroboros]

Some Christians are aware of this problem, and argues that God did know this, but the outcome of it, the sum of it, still will be good. God’s intention was to create a being that had a free will and the being would use that free will to choose him.

 

What I think is also interesting is that if God knew these things, and the things that happened in the OT, and he interacted and made certain miracles. Could God choose not to do what he knew he was going to do? If so, was his prediction really true? If not, does God have a free will?

 

And to the question about why God created the world now, my opinion is that God (if he exists, which I doubt), he was unconscious for eternity and when he woke up and became aware, in that moment, the universe came to be. Very much like Hinduism; Brahman opened his eye and the world came to exist.

 

But, as I said, I currently don't believe in any deity, not so much in dieting either.

[Mythra]

I had never heard the "god just woke up one day" argument. Interesting, but not too plausible. (on the other hand, it's just as plausible as most arguments for god).

 

It would be funny if we were just all part of a little entertainment gig for god, much like a child dripping hot wax on ants.

 

Hans - is the title of your avatar "GODDAMMIT! who drained the pool?"

[Ouroboros]

I had never heard the "god just woke up one day" argument.  Interesting, but not too plausible.  (on the other hand, it's just as plausible as most arguments for god).

 

It would be funny if we were just all part of a little entertainment gig for god, much like a child dripping hot wax on ants.

 

Hans - is the title of your avatar "GODDAMMIT!  who drained the pool?"

 

 

Very good!

 

Actually I think he is one of these contortionists that tried to jump from 30 feet into a bucket of water, but one of the dudes next to him, kicked the bucket.

 

Hence the saying; to kick the bucket.

[Vigile]

Few Christians look at the whole picture Mythra. Most are content to only see how God’s “plan” will affect them personally.

 

I have often pondered the same question you posed. If an omnipotent being “knows” what will happen if he creates humanity, then that being is ultimately responsible for the outcome. What is the ultimate outcome? A small minority of humans will become slaves to his ego; worshipping him for eternity. The remainder will suffer for an eternity in a hell he created. If that is the case, then why create us in the first place? It is either bad theology, or a load of bullshit.

 

I think its a fair question to Christians. Not all have their head in the sand. It was in fact this very issue that was my stumbling block and caused me to ask more and more questions, the answers of which ultimately led to where I am today. It was, I'm sure, questions like this that helped many on this board to shed the scales from their own eyes.

 

I don't see how an intellectually honest Christian can overcome this problem unless it is ok with him/her that such a stark injustice flow out of the nature of god. If god created hell and if god created me and god knew before he created both that I, you, and them would be condemned to spend an eternity there then he is not a god of love as christians claim. Or, at the very least, this is one twisted view of love.

 

And for the record, Romans 3 does not justify this twisted plan nor does the assumption that god created hell for fallen angels. According to your (fundementalist) theology, he knew. If he knew and was all powerful, he is guilty.

 

Hmmm... I'm guilty of disbelief, god is guilty of creating and then sending legions to hell for mere disbelief in a silly, unprovable story. Who is the bigger criminal???

[Vigile]

Add to IBF's comments the fact that yahweh had gotten along just fine without us for an eternity (he supposedly has no beginning). 

 

What made him decide about six thousand years ago that it was finally time to create some playthings?  Especially, as Mythra has pointed out, knowing that such bad things were in store for most of us. 

 

Doesn't make sense.

 

 

Yeah, and then add to that that he was so selfish that when he finally did decide he was lonely or whatever enough to create the human race he had to set up a nonsensical obedience test so narrow that only a few would make it through the gate and the rest he would ensure an eternity of torture for. If that is not the epitome of selfishness, I don't know what is.

 

I've heard christians my whole life justify this very issue telling me that it is god's love we are rejecting that sends us to hell. How the hell they get there in light of this issue of god's supposed omni attributes is a struggle for me.

[Vigile]

Some Christians are aware of this problem, and argues that God did know this, but the outcome of it, the sum of it, still will be good. God’s intention was to create a being that had a free will and the being would use that free will to choose him.

 

 

That's funny. So god is now a utilitarian ABSOLUTELY. (that's a joke in case no one got it).

[Ouroboros]

That's funny.  So god is now a utilitarian ABSOLUTELY.  (that's a joke in case no one got it).

 

It is true, the Intention behind the Cause, that he just wanted to create a slave race for the eternal "heaven". Cows, that willingly walks in to be slaughtered.

 

Maybe the whole concept is reversed. God just doing a trick on us to believe we’re getting saved, but instead, we’re just an animal farm.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

If there was sin in perfect heaven and the angels had free will, then what has changed? 

 

I've never had a good answer from a christian for this either. If humans have free will, and will continue to have free will in heaven why will there be no sin there?

 

If there will never be sin in heaven, then it seems like god must be removing the free will of everyone who goes there resulting in Stepford christians singing his praises for eternity.

[Mythra]

I am actually quite relieved to get rid of the concept of heaven. I was kinda dreading it, actually. I just know I wouldn't have fit in. And after the 93 millionth chorus of "holy, holy, holy", I know I would have been bored.

 

I have no problem thinking of annihilation. Brain dead = me dead.

 

I didn't have any problems before I was conceived either.

 

No tears, no frustration, no boredom, no hate, no anything.

 

Make the most of this life. It's all ya got. (in my humble, ever-evolving opinion)

[Mythra]

There has been an ongoing argument in Christian circles about the "age of accountability", in order to say that children cannot be sent to hell.

 

People have wondered, well, why doesn't the Bible just come out and say, 12 years old , or 16 years old, or whatever?

 

Then, I read an explanation of it that was sadly funny. If the bible had stated an age at which you were now accountable, Christians would have killed all their kids one day before they reached that birthdate in order to insure eternal paradise for them. I don't have any doubt that would have happened.

 

I sometimes wish I would have caught a ride on the Hale-Bop Comet to get off of this rotating ball of lunacy.

[Ouroboros]

Alright, putting this whole angel/heaven issue prompted yet another thought to run through my brain. 

 

If the angels in perfect heaven, where sin does not exist, worship bible god; weren't they sufficient for him?  Bible god knew, being omniscient, that we mere humans aren't even as perfect as angels.  Do the angels need the blood of the lamb too?

 

You got a really interesting point there!

 

If angels are these perfect beings, why the heck did God need to create the imperfect humang beings that he will punish because they are imperfect?!

[Lizard]

christians claim there is sin in the world because of satan's influence.  without satan in heaven his influence won't be there, hence no sin.  however at the same time...if all biblegod had to do to get rid of sin was get rid of satan, then he should have already done it.

 

Also...what makes him think some other angel won't sin?  who/what influenced satan in a perfect environment with nothing else "evil"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've often wondered the same thing..why not just get rid of the devil..and save humanity and his own son all that grief?

 

Or, since he knew all along that satan would rebel, why create him at all?

[Ouroboros]

I sometimes wish I would have caught a ride on the Hale-Bop Comet to get off of

this rotating ball of lunacy.

 

I was going to, but I didn't have the 20 bucks for the fare...

[Ouroboros]

christians claim there is sin in the world because of satan's influence.  without satan in heaven his influence won't be there, hence no sin.  however at the same time...if all biblegod had to do to get rid of sin was get rid of satan, then he should have already done it.

 

Also...what makes him think some other angel won't sin?  who/what influenced satan in a perfect environment with nothing else "evil"

 

That is so true.

 

God’s anger at Satan was redirected to the humans!

 

It's like when one of my kids does something bad, and blames the other, and I punish the wrong kid, and discover my mistake afterwards!

 

Either God is inherently sadist, or Satan managed to hide his true intentions in Eden, so he wasn’t fallen, and God didn't know it until afterwards. Which means, God is not omniscient?

 

Imagine if someone would put together a list of all these questions, and all the other ones that been mentioned other places, into one form, and have each Christian answer every question, with their best knowledge, and see if they would come out as believers at all at the end.

[Philosopher Dave]

O.K. -

I have a question.  God (Yah-way) supposedly is omniscient.  That means he knows all things.  All things past, present, and future.  That means as he was considering this whole sacrificial lamb Passion-of-the-Christ thing, the whole redemption plan, the whole easter sunday parade, he KNEW ahead of time what would follow. 

 

He saw the Crusades, the Inquisition, the whole Roman Catholic worship Mother-Of-God thing.  He saw the Nazi Holocaust, he saw the Dark Ages, he saw grilled cheese Mary sandwiches selling on Ebay.  He saw, well, Jerry Falwell.

 

He KNEW all of this would develop out of his little plan.  And God said, Yah, I LIKE IT.  LET'S DO IT..

 

Now, does this seem right to you?  I really want to know what professing Christians think about this.  Don't quote me scripture.  I'm pretty well versed in

my knowledge of the Bible after 25 years. 

 

I want to know what you THINK.  If you have to look it up, don't bother to respond.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mythra,

 

I can see that this apparent disparity, between God's omniscience and human suffering, is quite upsetting to a great host of people. It bothers me too that many people, according to Christian ideology, will supposedly suffer in this life and then face some kind of eternal consequence as well. It seems to some people to be highly unfair that a being would make lesser beings and dispose of them as He/She/It wishes.

 

For me, much of the problem was alleviated when I realized that I myself am a limited human being, and that my intent to evaluate the matter in its fullness is beyond by capability. Obviously, I'm not saying that I should not investigate, but what I am saying is that I believe that I could potentially investigate the matter until the present universe as I know it collapses in on itself and not be much closer to deducing the matter.

 

On my part, I take the bible existentially...its a book. It is a book with propositions. Many of which I have either very little evidence for, or the nature of which are beyond human capability to evaluate objectively. One of those propositions is that 'God is omniscient.' Personally, I have no idea what omniscience is objectively. I know what it is definitionally, ideally, but not empirically. For me to make assumptions built upon unknown factors is intriguing to say the least, but not necessarily productive for the end which I might attempt to achieve by my own reasoning. e.g. What is 2+4+___+9+____+45+____+999999999999~ = X? My quite elementary point is that I have no idea what an omniscient mind might concieve of. However, I do have human attempts at being logical. But to believe that my limited human capabilities could figure out a complex answer involving multiple unknown factors, is in my estimation, a bit ludicrous (see Kant or Kierkegaard).

 

My point is...all the suffering in the world looks terrible, I agree. But not you or I know how human suffering may factor in when there is so many other things we don't know. What I do know is that I have a book that proposes a God that has more knowledge that I. How much, I know not. What I do know is that somehow, I was placed in a position in existence wherein I could encounter the propostions...along with all the other humanly transmitted messages, and I can only hope God will make some bad things better in the end.

[quicksand]

My point is...all the suffering in the world looks terrible, I agree.  But not you or I know how human suffering may factor in when there is so many other things we don't know.  What I do know is that I have a book that proposes a God that has more knowledge that I.  How much,  I know not.  What I do know is that somehow, I was placed in a position in existence wherein I could encounter the propostions...along with all the other humanly transmitted messages, and I can only hope God will make some bad things better in the end.

So, all you can offer is an argument against God's culpability is from an Argument from Ignorance?

 

The propositions are there to be evaluated. The theology is there to be evaluated. Do the work.

[Ouroboros]

Mythra,

 

I can see that this apparent disparity, between God's omniscience and human suffering, is quite upsetting to a great host of people.  It bothers me too that many people, according to Christian ideology, will supposedly suffer in this life and then face some kind of eternal consequence as well.  It seems to some people to be highly unfair that a being would make lesser beings and dispose of them as He/She/It wishes. 

 

For me, much of the problem was alleviated when I realized that I myself am a limited human being, and that my intent to evaluate the matter in its fullness is beyond by capability.  Obviously, I'm not saying that I should not investigate, but what I am saying is that I believe that I could potentially investigate the matter until the present universe as I know it collapses in on itself and not be much closer to deducing the matter.

 

On my part, I take the bible existentially...its a book.  It is a book with propositions.  Many of which I have either very little evidence for, or the nature of which are beyond human capability to evaluate objectively.  One of those propositions is that 'God is omniscient.'  Personally, I have no idea what omniscience is objectively.  I know what it is definitionally, ideally, but not empirically.  For me to make assumptions built upon unknown factors is intriguing to say the least, but not necessarily productive for the end which I might attempt to achieve by my own reasoning.  e.g.  What is 2+4+___+9+____+45+____+999999999999~ =  X?  My quite elementary point is that I have no idea what an omniscient mind might concieve of.  However, I do have human attempts at being logical.  But to believe that my limited human capabilities could figure out a complex answer involving multiple unknown factors, is in my estimation, a bit ludicrous (see Kant or Kierkegaard).

 

My point is...all the suffering in the world looks terrible, I agree.  But not you or I know how human suffering may factor in when there is so many other things we don't know.  What I do know is that I have a book that proposes a God that has more knowledge that I.  How much,  I know not.  What I do know is that somehow, I was placed in a position in existence wherein I could encounter the propostions...along with all the other humanly transmitted messages, and I can only hope God will make some bad things better in the end.

 

Well, you place your faith in a book, rather in God.

 

If you base your belief in God on the premises, propositions and arguments in the Bible, then you put your trust in what one single book claims to know about God, while there are many other religions that claim the same thing. Shouldn't you read them all, and believe all the propositions that can be claimed on Gods nature?

 

This is Christianities true deduction of "True Faith":

 

1. The universe must have a cause

 

2. The cause must be intelligent

 

3. The intelligence must be a god, (of any kind)

 

4. The god-of-any-kind, must be the Bible-kind of god

 

5. The Bible-kind of God must not be the Jewish-kind but the Christian-kind

 

6. The Christian-kind of God must have contradictory attributes, which the Catholic Church established the first 400 years.

 

 

It's just "wishful thinking" logic.

[Ouroboros]

...along with all the other humanly transmitted messages, and I can only hope God will make some bad things better in the end.

 

 

Or maybe he will get better on "making bad things"?

[Purple Rhino]

...'God is omniscient.'  Personally, I have no idea what omniscience is objectively.

 

...What I do know is that I have a book that proposes a God that has more knowledge that I.  How much,  I know not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Translation:

Christians have no idea what or why God thinks, it is far beyond anything the human brain can comprehend.

 

But! Christians can tell you that god hates fags, demands sacrifice and loves conditionally.

 

Seems it would have been a better plan to 'make' humans with the ability to understand exactly what their ruler wanted.

 

 

PR

[Mythra]

O.K. Philosopher Dave - I think I understand what you are saying. But our limited ability to think things through, reason things out, and make educated decisions based on the best probabilities is all we have. Even though we "see through a glass darkly", it's all we got.

 

When it comes right down to it, faith in God is conjecture. Faith in no God is conjecture. Limited knowledge and "best guesses" is all we have.

 

I may try and read Kierkegaard, but I imagine it's way over my head.

 

What I'm pissed about is all of the years I wasted blindly believing the Bible, and living in fear of doing any research that didn't support my way of thinking.

 

I never even heard of "Mithraism" until just recently. I am convinced that there is a huge connection between the Persian Mythologies and the establishment of Christianity.

 

I never realized that Mark was the first gospel written, and that it makes no mention of the risen christ. (the earliest manuscripts.) Aren't you even a little suspicious that Matthew and Luke "dressed up" the story just a little bit?

 

I have only been a member of this forum for a few days, and I've already said things that I've been wanting to say for 20 years.

 

My limited knowledge is all I have. But I plan on increasing it. (And I doubt seriously it will lead me back to the God of Abraham.)

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I have only been a member of this forum for a few days, and I've already said things that I've been wanting to say for 20 years. 

 

Now that's heartwarming.

[Abiyoyo]

He KNEW all of this would develop out of his little plan.  And God said, Yah, I LIKE IT.  LET'S DO IT..

 

Now, does this seem right to you?  I really want to know what professing Christians think about this. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good questins.

 

Am I a Christian or a believer if I said that I dont know the answer to that?

 

Does that void my beliefs?

 

Would that single question deny the rest of Christianity?

 

These are questions that I cant answer. I could give alot of scripture that has helped me understand some of the things God has said.

 

Personally though, Who are we to limit God and demand answers?

If He is the all knowing, seeing God as proclaimed, would He not have given the answers to either the disciples, Jesus, Moses, etc. or even us in need of answers.

 

Well, He did give us His answers. They are all there and I can give my Biblical why? of the context and reasoning of some of the "unknowns", upon approval.

 

I dont read the Bible literally, but I do apply it to my life and my questions. One of the things in the Bible that always made me say Huh, was when Jesus would say Those that have ears let them hear.

 

I never understood that, until I one day I asked God to let me understand and He did. Then I was lead to the explanations of parables, and alot of things began to start connecting mentally for me with scripture.

 

Anyhow, for every creation there is a creator, for every design there is a designer. The fact is that we are here and all we can phathom in our peanut minds is that either there is a higher setting, or we live to die, and thats it.

 

This idea/question is what it really comes down too. What, Why, and for Who are we really here for?

 

I do however have an reply on the direct subject. Lets take some hypothetical steps. God knows all. God made all we see in perfectness(already knowing that man is evil/sinner, whichever) Man was created and sinned, providing our today ways of life(in esense). All the rest of the Bible takes place.

 

Heres the thing, God intended for us to die, and knew that Satan wants us to live to our fullest in lue of us dying and not knowing(God already knew). Satan doesnt know all things, so he is at war in arrogance with the all knowing. If someone said "Hey satan, God is going to win", he would say no hes not. There is a spiritual battle going on.

 

Death, we look at death as the end. Thats the importance of Jesus( gift from God to us, already knowing how scared we are of death and how we do stupid things thinking theres nothing else after death)Jesus died and rose again(with different variances in time and place), but neverthe less did rise. Jesus showed us that death is merely a portal to the other side of the boat so to speak.

 

God intended for us to die, and satan(in arrogance) intended to make us believe that there is nothing after we die. The kicker is that God already knew all that.

Heres some good questions Ive heard:

 

If God knows everthing, then why does he let people/children die in freak accidents or in gun fire between two gangs, or crash in an airplane, or even in light to the World Trade towers?

 

God gave man free will. God is all knowing but man is not. God would stepping over His own line that He has drawn if He completely killed off the whole earth(Explains His great sorrow about the flood, and His vow to never do that again)

 

Instead, God has intervened by prayer, adjusted by choices and decisions made by our free will, but He has let us live our life. All that God ever asked is that we love Him with all our heart and soul, and be righteous.

 

If God already knew everything, why didnt He get rid of Satan?

 

Why would He. Some might say that he should have for all the pain and suffering that he can cause or has caused as descibed in the Bible(EXP Job). The bigger thing to remeber is that death is merely a portal to another realm for God. Death is like Him saying come home. Death is taken by satan and twisted until people say ,what the heck, I only live once.

 

Anyhow, seeing the above about death, I can come to a conclusion that God works in all things for His purpose, even death. This thinking would answer alot of other questions I have run across(David and the Angel of the Lord, the ground consuming tribes of Israel, etc..) If death is just a way home to the other realm of Gods dwelling, then it is indeed satan toy of deceivement.

 

If death is merely a portal, and there is a spiritual war going on, and God already knows all things, but we have free will; ......

 

Wouldnt we need an ending. God already knows. He has even gone as far as sending His Son, Jesus to give the ending and precautions to us. But, since we are of free will, not all have faith in Him, and they are considered(by scripture) followers of satans army and his synagogue. God has already made a place for satan, and a place for believers.

 

The choice is ours, forewarned and is currently being told to most nations and peoples on this earth.