9/11 The Myth And The Reality: Dr. David Ray Griffin

[integral]

Presentation by Dr. David Ray Griffin: 9/11 The Myth and the Reality

 

 

 

 

He is also the author of The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions

[Dave]

What intrigues me more than the 9/11 myths is why people cling so tightly to these myths that they absolutely will not let go of them even when they have been thoroughly discounted.

 

A good example is the melting supports. Not one scientist, engineer, or report has ever claimed any support melted. The word is not used once in reference to any support beam or column. So why do the 9/11 conspiracy theorists keep harping on that one word?

 

I don't get it.

[integral]

Really there's no reference to melting in official accounts?

If that's true, that's a very good point, because there's a widespread belief that there was melting of the steel frame.

 

 

Dave: did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?

[Dave]

Really there's no reference to melting in official accounts? If that's true, that's a very good point, because there's a widespread belief that there was melting of the steel frame.

Not one scientist or engineer used the terms "melt", "melted" or, "melting". When the support columns reached a temp of, I think, around 500 deg, they lost over half their strength. They did not melt.

Dave: did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?

I didn't watch the video, it was just too long. I do know most of the mythinformation that's being passed around though. But I am much more interested in why people need to believe such things. What drives these conspiracy believers? I can see the motive behind those pushing conspiracies; they have a following that looks up to them.... but what do the followers get out of it?

[All Gods Fail]

I can see the motive behind those pushing conspiracies; they have a following that looks up to them.... but what do the followers get out of it?

 

Simple - they don't have to think.

 

Just like in religion, they get the truth packaged in a nice, gift-wrapped box.

[Dave]

I can see the motive behind those pushing conspiracies; they have a following that looks up to them.... but what do the followers get out of it?

Simple - they don't have to think.

 

Just like in religion, they get the truth packaged in a nice, gift-wrapped box.

They do hold on to their conspiracy with a religious tenacity and fervor, but it's more than than. Maybe, as in a religion, they know something special and therefore can see themselves as above others.

[integral]

They do hold on to their conspiracy with a religious tenacity and fervor, but it's more than than. Maybe, as in a religion, they know something special and therefore can see themselves as above others.

Yep, I agree with your insight here. Having knowledge, that the general masses don't know, does definitely give one a sense of superiority.

Just like with atheism. I get a sense of pride from atheism because its worldview has more depth and truth than a theistic one.

 

 

The problem with this religious tenacity and fervor that you mention, is its close-mindedness. People emotionally entrenched in their viewpoints...

 

 

 

But why do people believe alternate theories about 9/11?

Well myself, I do because I find more evidence and truth in them than in the 'Official Account.'

In the video I linked, Dr. Griffin does present some very strong evidences.

[Dave]

But why do people believe alternate theories about 9/11?

Well myself, I do because I find more evidence and truth in them than in the 'Official Account.'

In the video I linked, Dr. Griffin does present some very strong evidences.

I've seen or heard those "evidences" from different sources. Not one of them is based on reality.

[Mr. Neil]

My favorite piece of "evidence" is the alleged evidence of controlled explosions, as suggested by the windows blowing out as the towers fall, as if that couldn't also be the result of air pressure caused by the floor's pancaking from above.

 

The usual claim: "The destruction of the WTC looks like the controlled demolition of skyscraper."

 

My question: What does a non-controlled demolition of a skyscraper look like?

 

 

If those were controlled demolitions, they were pretty sloppy, especially that of the south tower, which actually buckled.

 

Perhaps what I find most disappointing is that some people are so convinced that our president is a bastard (and I admit, he is) that they refuse to believe that there are some evils in this world for which he is actually not responsible.

[Dave]

My favorite piece of "evidence" is the alleged evidence of controlled explosions, as suggested by the windows blowing out as the towers fall, as if that couldn't also be the result of air pressure caused by the floor's pancaking from above......

And with the thousands of people working in those buildings 24/7, no one saw anyone carrying explosives or preping the building for an explosion. And such prep would have involved hundreds of people including suppliers for the explosives and not one person has said anything.

Perhaps what I find most disappointing is that some people are so convinced that our president is a bastard (and I admit, he is) that they refuse to believe that there are some evils in this world for which he is actually not responsible.

His gross incompetence and lack of leadership contributed to the aftermath, but he, or his minions, are not smart enough to carry off something like 9/11.

[woodsmoke]

I don't know as I'd extend those doubts to the rest of his cabinet. For all that Shrub will go down in history as one of the greatest examples of human stupidity ever, a good amount of the people he surrounds himself with are anything but. One need only look at Dick Cheney and especially Karl Rove to see the truth of that.

 

That said, I agree. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn the federal government knew of the attacks beforehand and willfully allowed them to happen, but the idea that they somehow perpetrated the event is too much of a stretch.

[integral]

And with the thousands of people working in those buildings 24/7, no one saw anyone carrying explosives or preping the building for an explosion. And such prep would have involved hundreds of people including suppliers for the explosives and not one person has said anything.

Hmm, yeah that's a good point--nobody has come forward stating that they directly saw explosives being set up.

 

 

 

Now, there has been a Senior Database Administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Scott Forbes, who has been in the media about the power-down that occured at WTC 2 on the weekend of Sept. 8th and 9th.

 

This power-down could have been the opportunity to place explosives in the building.

 

Scott Forbes Interview

 

Video: Scott Forbes describes power-downs in WTC

 

His gross incompetence and lack of leadership contributed to the aftermath, but he, or his minions, are not smart enough to carry off something like 9/11.

A lot of people think this. It could very well be the case.

As Woodsmoke alluded, it's possible that government knew of the attacks beforehand but willfully allowed them to happen.

[Guest Neo-Agnostic - Vulgaris]

That said, I agree. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn the federal government knew of the attacks beforehand and willfully allowed them to happen(...)

 

Could you point me to the rock you've been living under these past few years?

[woodsmoke]

Edit: Removed overreaction. I simply don't like being addressed as if my ignorance is somehow my fault.

 

I'm just keeping an open mind in light of a lack of information either way. It may do you good to hold back the snark next time.

[Dave]

And with the thousands of people working in those buildings 24/7, no one saw anyone carrying explosives or preping the building for an explosion. And such prep would have involved hundreds of people including suppliers for the explosives and not one person has said anything.

Hmm, yeah that's a good point--nobody has come forward stating that they directly saw explosives being set up.

Are you trying to set up an "argument from ignorance"?

Now, there has been a Senior Database Administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Scott Forbes, who has been in the media about the power-down that occured at WTC 2 on the weekend of Sept. 8th and 9th.

 

This power-down could have been the opportunity to place explosives in the building.

Speculation.

His gross incompetence and lack of leadership contributed to the aftermath, but he, or his minions, are not smart enough to carry off something like 9/11.

A lot of people think this. It could very well be the case.

As Woodsmoke alluded, it's possible that government knew of the attacks beforehand but willfully allowed them to happen.

More speculation that's solidly based on conjecture. That's the problem with conspiracy theories; they are never wrong. NOTHING can ever prove them wrong because there is always another "what if" coming along or more conjecture. I want proof, not conjecture.

[woodsmoke]

I want proof, not conjecture.

 

Which is exactly why I've held off on going the final step of proclaiming a guilty verdict on the federal government (guilty of doing nothing to prevent an attack, NOT of perpetrating the event itself).

 

Would it surprise me? Not in the least. As I've said already, I certainly have suspicions, but thus far I haven't seen any incontrivertible proof of such a decision. That being the case, the only thing I can do in good conscience is abstain my judgment.

 

And for the record, I don't believe the government had advanced and detailed knowledge of the attack as it happened. I think, at best, they had information that Osama bin Laden had every intention of engineering an attack (which has been common knowledge since long before the turn of the century) without any solid details concerning the where, when or how. To suggest they had found the cigar case with his hand-written battle plans and even then done nothing seems dubious even to me.

[RedPillAddict]

I don't think that anybody has taken a look at the pigeons in New York. Have you seen them? Sitting around all day...staring...pooping.

 

I am not saying that Pigeons are responsible for 9-11...I am just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that they had somehow pecked away at the buildings for years before-hand, allowing them to fall easier.

 

Just think about it...thats all I ask. Don't be a blind pigeon-lover.

 

 

why do I feel this way?

 

1) There were exactly 211 pigeons within 10 square blocks of the WTC that day. Subtract 92(flight 92) from that number and you get 119. 911 BACKWARDS! Coincidence? If it helps you sleep at night...

 

2) I heard from a guy who heard from a guy that he saw a pigeon take an extremely nasty shit on an American flag just days before 911...Foreshadowing of things to come? I think so.

 

3) Pigeons hate you. They hate me. They want us gone. They are smarter than you could ever imagine.

 

4) _#4 has been deleted by the government_

[KT45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX4JT6D9KZo...ted&search=

 

"It was only the world's most intricately and flawless plan ever, ever..."- George W. Bush

[Lightbearer]

I ditto what you Dave said about being so stuck in their denial of reality.

 

We had a big thread on this site about it. When I said I didn't buy the conspiracy theories I was called brainwashed, stupid, ignorant, a government lapdog, and I needed a degree in engineering and physhics to even talk about it.

 

I think some people just hate America and Bush that they will blame if for everything, even attacking itself. It's eeriely similiar to the people who claim the Jews orchreasted or made up the Holocaust.

[Dave]

I don't think that anybody has taken a look at the pigeons in New York. Have you seen them? Sitting around all day...staring...pooping.

 

I am not saying that Pigeons are responsible for 9-11...I am just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that they had somehow pecked away at the buildings for years before-hand, allowing them to fall easier.

 

Just think about it...thats all I ask. Don't be a blind pigeon-lover.

 

 

why do I feel this way?

 

1) There were exactly 211 pigeons within 10 square blocks of the WTC that day. Subtract 92(flight 92) from that number and you get 119. 911 BACKWARDS! Coincidence? If it helps you sleep at night...

 

2) I heard from a guy who heard from a guy that he saw a pigeon take an extremely nasty shit on an American flag just days before 911...Foreshadowing of things to come? I think so.

 

3) Pigeons hate you. They hate me. They want us gone. They are smarter than you could ever imagine.

 

4) _#4 has been deleted by the government_

Since no one can prove you wrong, you must be right. Thanks for informing us.... but now we are all in danger from the pigeons. They're going to come and get us!

 

I ditto what you Dave said about being so stuck in their denial of reality.

 

We had a big thread on this site about it. When I said I didn't buy the conspiracy theories I was called brainwashed, stupid, ignorant, a government lapdog, and I needed a degree in engineering and physhics to even talk about it.

That's part of a true conspiracy theory. If you do not go along with it you MUST be either stupid or part of it.

I think some people just hate America and Bush that they will blame if for everything, even attacking itself. It's eeriely similiar to the people who claim the Jews orchreasted or made up the Holocaust.

It is. They need to channel their hate for bush somewhere. Bush deserves it, but at least hate him for something he's done... and there's plenty of that.

[Lightbearer]

Dave you make me happy! That's exactly what I am thinking.

 

Bush has a runaway budget, horriable foreign-policy, "faith-based" initiatives, and numerous other things he's done wrong, but you never hear about that.

 

It's always "Bush is an evil criminal mastermind so smart he can attack his own country and get away with it and use this as a platform to steal our civil liberties and launch illegal wars."

 

I wouldn't mind the Bush bashing if if was actually done on the right topics. I'm going to make another thread about it later though.

[Mr. Neil]

Which is exactly why I've held off on going the final step of proclaiming a guilty verdict on the federal government (guilty of doing nothing to prevent an attack, NOT of perpetrating the event itself).

Well, of course. At this point, I think gross neglegence is the most reasonable charge one can levvy against the government. In five years, I've seen very little to convince me that step beyond that assumption.

That's part of a true conspiracy theory. If you do not go along with it you MUST be either stupid or part of it.

You know what's even funnier than that, Dave? We now have some conspiracy theorists pointing the finger at each other, accusing each other of being part of conspiracy themselves! The reason: Movies like 9/11: In Plane Sight were allegedly made by the government to be easily refuted and thus damaging to the conspiracy theory movement.

 

Hilarious! Conspiracy theorists are betrayed by the very paranoia on which their theories are based!

[Thackerie]

Dave you make me happy! That's exactly what I am thinking.

 

Bush has a runaway budget, horriable foreign-policy, "faith-based" initiatives, and numerous other things he's done wrong, but you never hear about that.

 

It's always "Bush is an evil criminal mastermind so smart he can attack his own country and get away with it and use this as a platform to steal our civil liberties and launch illegal wars."

 

I wouldn't mind the Bush bashing if if was actually done on the right topics. I'm going to make another thread about it later though.

 

I don't mind bashing Bush & Co., either, but I'd never call him "an evil criminal mastermind." (Maybe, "an evil criminal blockhead.") I don't buy into any government conspiracy theories for the simple reason that I don't believe anything that goes on in government could be kept secret long enough for anyone to pull off a good conspiracy.

[Lightbearer]

Exactly, someone would leak stuff if it was that bad. It's the just the odds of all of this going on unnoticed and unabridged is completelty unlikely.

 

I do think that the Government, both Clinton and Bush, ignored al-Qaida for too long and didn't do anything to prevent things like this. I wouldn't go so far as to say that they knew everything about 9/11 before hand, like the date, the time, the people invovled, the methods of execution... but they probally didn't look into or ignored intelligiance reports.

 

But that theory is more grounded in reality don't you think? It was defiantely more of giant National Security fuck-up in the face of the worst attack in American history then a conspiracy to control the world or enslave everyone.

 

I mean, really, with the level of taxation and government intruding into our personal lives already, banning same-sex marriages, drug use, pornography(in some places), not being allowed to teach our own children, not being allowed to keep our hard earned money, take care of our own retirement, our own health, not being allowed to even kill yourself (assited suicide)... we are heading towards something like slavery if you think about. Your freedoms are already been taken away. Things like the Patriot Act which are designed to protect you are actually doing something good as long as it's not abused (and someone would end up report or leaking that too). Yet it's that that people link 9/11 too and claim is the reason America attacked itself.

[integral]

Speculation.

You're right at this point it is speculation. There is not concrete evidence here.

More speculation that's solidly based on conjecture. That's the problem with conspiracy theories; they are never wrong. NOTHING can ever prove them wrong because there is always another "what if" coming along or more conjecture. I want proof, not conjecture.

Yes, this can be a pathology of conspiracy theories.

 

I don't find this is the case with 9/11 though--there are a lot of excellent questions being raised that were not at all properly addressed in the 9/11 Commission Report.

 

 

 

 

 

Have any of you guys read this book, The 911 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions? (first chapter available here)

 

 

If so, what did you think?