Guest SerenityNow Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I've told a few of my closest church friends about not being a Christian. A couple of them still received me and didn't question why or anything but one even closer did. Out of worry for my family and I, she wrote me that the enemy had stole me away from god and made me be deceived by lies. Also, that because I am a woman that I am more apt to be deceived, as was Eve. She did this in a loving way and asked that I reconsider coming back to god. This was one of my closest friends and when I say" I lived for god" I mean to the fullest. I'm not looking for insults on this friend whom I love dearly. My hopes is to perhaps receive support from someone in similiar circumstances, i.e.; one who told their friends, was the reaction similiar, and what did you do. I'd post the letter but I wouldn't feel right in doing so. I didn't give the reasons "why", only that after months of bible study and the OT inparticular that I could no longer believe in the bible god. I can imagine that news like this would be devastating and the strange thing is that it didn't hurt so badly the ones who aren't actually living like the bible says. Putting myself in my other friends shoes is different, god was all we talked about when we got together, our love for him, our desire to please him, etc. If I am truly honest about my feelings right now at this moment, her letter had me questioning my ability to judge in this matter, and I looked at my two children and husband thinking "If you are wrong, you have helped sentenced these people to permanent torture in hell." Yes, I am that strong of an influence in my household. Until I got her letter, I was happy and not doubting at all. Also, I realize that my feelings are more than likely a normal part during the first few months of deconversion. Ups and downs, highs and lows can be expected, I hope? Any support or encouragement would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Hi Thankful, My experience is not much like yours, but I am sure there are many here who can relate to what you are going through. I did experience "doubts" when I left the faith (5 years ago) after 25 years. Yes, that has to be "normal". I had not been in the church for about 10 years prior to my deconversion, and I did not have any close Christian friends that I needed to tell of my deconversion. I did write to one of my close friends, whom I hadn't seen in years, to inform him of my deconversion. He was, and is an evangelist. He was very disappointed, and tried to gently tell me that it was going to be a very costly mistake I was making. At first, I did worry some, as the father of three sons. But now, I have absolutely no fear of this supposed afterlife. If there is a god, and if he is the god described in the bible, I want nothing to do with him. Read the words of Ingersoll; If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men.... What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 hey thankful, Well I am the worse person for advice. But hang in there and you'll make new friends and all that. Does suck to lose a friend, but as a master of it, I can tell you that it gives you more time for reading. See I am not much for advice, but glad you are here. //Taylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Until I got her letter, I was happy and not doubting at all. Also, I realize that my feelings are more than likely a normal part during the first few months of deconversion. Ups and downs, highs and lows can be expected, I hope? Any support or encouragement would be greatly appreciated. Thankful, I'm deeply sorry for this painful situation you're going thru. I can relate totally. It's a form of Rejection and its not an easy thing to deal with. It's also something we don't expect from people we are so close to. I think there is different levels of deconversion, I believe a sense of mourning is one of them. I think to be outside of the "Christ circle" is not hard on the logical level, it's hard on the emotional level, especially to those that we once considered to be so close. You can handle this quite a few different ways. You can dismiss the letter, and try to talk to the friend with out mentioning it. (Ignoring her emotional plea completely) You can write her back and explain to her how you logically came to your conclusion, and that each of us are suppose to seek God individually, You question contradictions (and their are plenty) in Faith and dogma. You do have one advantage here, You know the arguments used to "win you back" already. Be prepared to politely, but firmly use logic to defeat the argument, (Or plea) you have time to form a solid rebuttal, nothing said to you will be based on fact, but on fear (For yourself, your family) as in this situation. What if's consume people. Your Friend no doubt has extreme fear for you, you can help shatter her fear using reason. Remember what it was to be like to be engulfed in blind faith. Put all of your conclusions in the form of a question, this will cause her to think for herself, and keep things civil. Perhaps piercing her blind faith. Stress You're not attacking her faith, your using reason to question contradictions of faith. For example: in Exodus, it say's No other Gods before me (Part of the commandments) How is this "Law" turned into You have to go thru my son to get to me? (re- New Testament) This of course can't be justified by any Christian, they will start to twist that God and son are one, if that's the case why separate himself and make a separate being (Christ) to get to himself? Point out the blatant favoritism in the bible, innocents were killed for no reason other then being in the wrong place, and born to the wrong tribe. Try much as possible to leave emotionalism out of it, once you fall into this trap, it will be hard to escape, and could end up damaging your friendship permanently . I wish you well thankful, don't doubt your logic, don't allow the old game of emotional blackmail to sway you back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 She did this in a loving way and asked that I reconsider coming back to god. An old Christian friend's pleas will often seem very loving. But if they are truly a loving friend they will allow you to maintain whatever you wish to believe as long as you're being a good person, which I'm sure you are. This is one of the hardest aspects of deconverting. Many of us lose what we thought were good friends who just aren't ready to hear the truth about religion and still need to hold onto it. If anything you could express your heartfelt hope to your friend that they find the truth one day too. What I did as much as anything after leaving was kept studying and finding more reasons why the Bible was flawed and therefore strengthened my resolve. No emotional plea will ever turn you back once you have enough facts to firm up your standpoint. Putting myself in my other friends shoes is different, god was all we talked about when we got together, our love for him, our desire to please him, etc. This in itself should be a big clue. You felt the need to talk about it that much in order to try and reaffirm something that isn't true. Which is usually the case when you're believing a lie, you have to come up with reason after reason & repetitively confirm it in order to keep it justified in your heart. Until I got her letter, I was happy and not doubting at all. Also, I realize that my feelings are more than likely a normal part during the first few months of deconversion. Ups and downs, highs and lows can be expected, I hope? Yes, this is part of the process of deconverting. And you can take comfort in the fact that you're at least out now & won't have to believe the lies anymore. And of anything, the losing of acquaintances, friends, & family who are not ready to give up the safety blanket is the hardest part of deconverting. Keep fighting the good fight. We're all behind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I don't have any great advice for you, thankful. I work with one of the ladies from my church, and she has just been leaving me alone since I left. But if she does corner me, I'm just going to tell her that what I think and believe are now my business. The last thing I would try to do right now is cause someone else to doubt. If they will find that path, they'll find it on their own. She would completely freak out if she knew that I was now ANTI-CHRISTIAN> Anyway, I've read lots of your posts here, and I relate very closely to your frame of mind and what you've had to say. We are very similar in our thinking. What kind of God would send us to eternal damnation for just trying to find out the truth? Answer. a man-made god. Anyway, if you lose a friend, you have also gained one in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Thankful, I guess what I would advise is that you try and keep in mind how 'normal' your fluctuating emotions are. If you had just 'converted' to christianity and six weeks in were experiencing doubts and struggling with the way your decison had affected your lifestyle - and a non-christian friend had written to express her fears that you'd been taken in by a cult or something - a whole host of supportive voices would swing into action and explain how this was an 'attack' and you'd be reassurred how 'commonplace this was'. Now I don't accept the explanation that christians give for those doubts that creep in after the honeymoon period - but I do accept that this experience is common ... it's got nothing to do with satan of course - and everything to do with our minds psychological response to life changing changes ... which is why you are feeling low at this point when you've reverse converted! These kind of doubts and low ebb emotions happen after most big changes in life ... if you move house to a totally new area ... if you take a new job ... when you marry ... six weeks or so of feeling on a high ... and then that sinking feeling threatens. Not only are you facing something totally new - but you are also experiencing the loss of your previous lifestyle - so expect to go through the stages of loss .. denial / doubt / anger / blame (damn can't remember the other ones!) Me - I'm stuck right in denial ('what me deconverted NO WAY'!) Anyway - hope this helps. The loss of friendships is horrible - but those friendships that were 'real' will survive even if they go through a rocky transition and period of readjustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Until I got her letter, I was happy and not doubting at all. Also, I realize that my feelings are more than likely a normal part during the first few months of deconversion. Ups and downs, highs and lows can be expected, I hope? Any support or encouragement would be greatly appreciated. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your short testimony brought back some emotions.....wow. All I can say is if you are still not sure where you stand, keep researching until you find your answer. For me, it took well over a year to completely deconvert, and I spent ALL that time studying. Even still, I continue to study religious issues with fervor. Eventually, the growth outweighs the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Not only are you facing something totally new - but you are also experiencing the loss of your previous lifestyle - so expect to go through the stages of loss .. denial / doubt / anger / blame (damn can't remember the other ones!) Me - I'm stuck right in denial ('what me deconverted NO WAY'!) Anyway - hope this helps. The loss of friendships is horrible - but those friendships that were 'real' will survive even if they go through a rocky transition and period of readjustment. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good advice. I also found this at http://sfhelp.org/05/grief-intro.htm The Emotional Level of Good Grief There are several points of view here. Noted British researcher John Bowlby feels that young children's' grieving (of absent caregivers) has three emotional stages: protest, despair, and (emotional) detachment. Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who has studied and written widely on reactions to human death, proposes five emotional stages of mourning for any significant loss: 1. Shock, numbness, disorientation, and/ or hysteria ("This can't be happening!"); 2. Irrational pleading, fantasizing, or bargaining ("magic thinking") - e.g. "If I start taking out the garbage on time like my parents want, I know they won't divorce."; 3. Cycles of anger and rage. These surges may be felt or repressed and denied . If anger energy is felt, it may be expressed directly or indirectly, or unconsciously converted into a "safer" emotional/physical state (e.g. "heaviness," "depression," or "hyperactivity.") There is strong evidence that repressed anger can be stored in our muscles as "tight" jaw (TMJ), shoulders, stomach, and "back pain". It also seems to contribute to some recurrent headaches, facial tics, teeth grinding, and stomach problems. 4. Cycles of deep sadness, apathy, despair, and (perhaps) depression. Again, these emotions may be felt or not, and/or expressed or not. By the way - medical research reports that tears of joy differ chemically from tears of pain because the latter contain compounds that cause depression and stress if not released. By releasing these chemicals, crying is one of our body's natural ways of staying balanced during times of trauma and endings. The point: blocking our human reflex to weep stresses us! The last phase of the emotional level of our normal grief process is … 5. Resuming stable emotional calmness, which allows us to resume our life interests, activities, and goals, and form selective new bonds. Periods of calm sadness (e.g. at anniversaries) may continue. (Acceptance) We life-long losers can move through these stages in order, repeat or skip one or several stages for a while, or may move back and forth between the stages over time. We each evolve our own mourning style, so it's usually not helpful to "persuade" a loser to grieve "right," unless they're stuck. While we're moving through these emotional grief-phases, we also need to move through... It has stages for spiritual grieving too...you might want to check out the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Not only are you facing something totally new - but you are also experiencing the loss of your previous lifestyle - so expect to go through the stages of loss .. denial / doubt / anger / blame (damn can't remember the other ones!) Me - I'm stuck right in denial ('what me deconverted NO WAY'!) Yup. But I think I'm going through those phases back and forth in circles, and then start over again... My theory why I'm so upset sometimes, is that I'm really angry with myself, for being so ignorant... And all the smart people I've met, that I blew off as stupid, because they didn't believe in my faith... damn, what a cretin I was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Thankful... Stand up for yourself. You have every right to believe how you wish to without emotional blackmail from your peers. Always remember we are here for you, and to take strength from your friends and family. Helping people out is what this place is for! Don't let it rust on the shelf... Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 There was an alternate gospel I came across... it portrayed Eve raising Adam back from the dead after being cast East of Eden. Adam takes a look around for the first time and sees Eve, who brought him back and says something like "You shall be known as the mother of man, for it was you who gave me life." What a difference it would have made if that story was used, eh? Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 *sigh* The Eve thing is just so wrong on so many levels. It has been used to put women into an inferior place for such a long, long time. One of the reasons I am afraid to tell people irl that I have deconverted, is because I know they are going to say that I am being decieved like Eve was in the garden. The gist of the story is that women are stupid, gullible and irrational. That without the guidance of men- husbands, fathers and pastors- they are going to throw their lives into the toilets and corrupt anyone they come in contact with. Now, if your husband had deconverted, everyone would say that he was dragging his wife to hell, as though you had no voice or choice. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When the oppression of women is perpetrated by women acting as agents of their opressors, it's even more depressing. The answer is 'no, you're the one deceived into thinking women are too stupid to figure out that this is a fake religion with a strong intertwining of misogyny'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Thank you ALL so much and hugs to (((((((((((((((((you all)))))))))))))))) from me. I haven't been here very long but the kindness and support is so wonderful, you don't know how much all of your words have totally changed my day for the better. Thrilled to hear it! We leave Saturday for a 2 week vacation, just want you all to know that so you aren't concerned that I've left to go back to my prior life. It's nice to know that as this fallout happens over the next few days and months that I have you guys to confide in and receive support. I will gladly give back that support to you guys to, should the need arise. We'll keep the light on for you... Isn't it amazing that people can be this good without the guidance of the Holy Spirit??? You all have fruits of the spirit without the "spirit"!! Amazing!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I've found this to be true in many of the board members myself... coming from a wiccan, they have a better grasp on 'spirituality' than I do... which is humbling and very encouraging at the same time. Huge hug to you... look forward to seeing you again! Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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