Guest college_kid215 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just interested....what evidence would an atheist/agnostic need to believe? You can make it personal to yourself. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 God fixing the bugs in the huge computer simulation program he made. This version; Universe 1.0, have a bunch of bugs in it, and should have been tested by the QA department before release. I don't think he made a planned out project and implemenation strategy before he said "Let there be light", he probably got blinded by the flash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just interested....what evidence would an atheist/agnostic need to believe? You can make it personal to yourself. Thanks Good Question. I leave that to your God to provide, since the "proofs" he has already provided fall under critical examination once you sweep a priori confirmation bias and tradition aside. And the irrationality of those proofs to support god's existence fail as well, subsequent theologies are false. If he's all powerful and all knowing, he'll know what to do. So its... His move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 It's not a matter of evidence for me. It's a simple paradox... the closer I get to God, the further away I get from my own conscience. I don't claim to know God. He may be named Jehova. He may be named Allah. He may be nameb Bob. He may even be named Merlin! All I *do* know is that the BibleGod I see is not worthy of respect or praise... and if I am a creation of him, why is it my morals are better than his? Add in all the bull about creationism and such, and it becomes impossible to believe the bible on any level. In order for me to be a Christian, the whole world would have to change... it's simply incompatable with this reality. Grab Neverwinter Nights and go make one... might be fun to play in. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Challenger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just interested....what evidence would an atheist/agnostic need to believe Some bonafide miracles that couldn't be explained any other way, such as the sun standing still, the dead rising. Things like those would be a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Oh, actually, without kidding, I know... I wish that God, right now to prove his power and his existence should to the following: Make world peace – no more fighting Give all starving people food Heal all people that are sick in any way Give hearing to all deaf Give sight to all blind Give legs to any amputated Make everyone walk that can’t Give everyone a good place to live in Free all imprisoned that are innocent Change the brains of all evil people to only want good things He should explain to every dictating/fascist or other self serving leader in the world that they’re doing wrong, and if they don’t change, God should make them peasants and put someone good at the top instead. And this is only the start of the list… And when I say ALL, I mean everyone in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgaris Prime Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just interested....what evidence would an atheist/agnostic need to believe? You can make it personal to yourself. Thanks <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If your god exists, and is all you claim him to be, he already knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scorpio Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Honestly, I'm not sure what kind of proof it would take for be to believe in A god. All the evidence I've seen for you god says "He" doesn't exist, so I suppose logic and reason would need to evaporate for me to believe in biblegod. If there is a god, S/H/It would know exactly what it would take to prove to each of us that S/H/It exists. But for starters, I'd like some miracles. Bonafide, no other explanations, just straight up miracles that could ONLY be the hand of god. And some good, old fashioned, old testament WRATH for the people who fuck up the world in god's name, starting with Dubya. And then, I'd like a big, booming voice from the sky, that everyone, everywhere, no matter how well they try to hide can hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest college_kid215 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Okay, good answers. As a Christian, I wonder at what point does a God who does all those things take away the concept of free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valgeir Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Proof. Plain and simple. God interferes with free will when he gives proof against someone's will, haha. If I want proof of my own free will, giving it does NOT interfere with free will. This argument does not hold water. I was granted the proof at my own request, and could still make my own decision based on it. Free will is intact. Edit to add response to CK's last post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgaris Prime Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Okay, good answers. As a Christian, I wonder at what point does a God who does all those things take away the concept of free will? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> By his existence, he does. An all-knowing, all-powerful god would leave no room for free will, as he would know in advance what would happen and would be the force behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Okay, good answers. As a Christian, I wonder at what point does a God who does all those things take away the concept of free will? He already wants us to do it now. He gave us free will, and demanded us to give it up. "We can choose any color, as long its black". God doesn't accept Non-Belief or Other-Belief, but will punish that with eternal pain and suffering. That Great Good God he is. And he will punish us that way, based on our unbelief which is based on that we see him torturing and killing innocent people everyday. God is supposedly greater than me, so he has to show his commitment, before I can show mine. Besides, going to heaven; up there he will take your free will anyway. You're not allowed to disobey him, or sin, only do things that are pretty and nice in front of his eyes. So, to truly give up our free will, would require seeing him do something today, not later. Otherwise he doesn't prove anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Okay, good answers. As a Christian, I wonder at what point does a God who does all those things take away the concept of free will? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> *sigh* Bait and switch. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest college_kid215 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I really didn't mean it to be like that. Answer the orginal topic if you want. It just came up. Sorry *sigh* Bait and switch. Merlin <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been borg again Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just interested....what evidence would an atheist/agnostic need to believe? You can make it personal to yourself. Thanks <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I really love the idea of UFO's, I love SCi -FI. I would love nothing better that for the whole UFO abduction senerio to be reality. except I cannot beleive in UFOs or Abductionism until objective ( physical) evidence comes to validate the reality of alien greys and all that jazz. To lower my standards would be intellectually dishonest I would even ( maybe) settle for personal subjective of being abducted to validate UFOism.. but its never happened, so I am not going to beleive in UFOism until the evidence comes along. Does that mean i HATE UFOism? GodNo I read every UFO book I can get my hands on, but it still pisses me off to no end that the first thing I read is the references. and discover %100 of UFO books use other UFO books as evidence, which also use other UFO books as evidence.... a huge culture of Circular Reasoning, thus the need for Objective Evidence to validate the truth of Abductionism.. . the exact same standard applies in believing in biblegod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 For one, all the Christian constructs are not well-defined. There may be some sort of definition, but it is too weak. They need to be well defined. I am a man of proof, and I don't see evidence as always being proof of anything, just an indicator of higher probability. Quite frankly, the Christian constructs tend to be conveniently unprovable. Now, some people have pointed out some strange happenings and miracles, but the problem with using those as "proof" or evidence is that they are making the assumption that God exists simply by attributing those events to God. That is called speculation, and is unacceptable in formal logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 All it would take is for him to arrange the stars in written form that all would be able to understand, no matter what language or disability. He could write..."I am the Creator God, be kind and loving, all of you and you shall have eternal life....The True Religion is [insert religion]. Stop killing each other and be GOOD!!" Wow, now if he did that, everyone would be set straight and there would be no more struggling, trying to understand what he wanted us to do. Right there, written in the stars and would stand forever and ever. No more religious wars, etc. If God put all the stars in place, surely he could rearrange them so that we all would know. Maybe a cross or symbol of the right religion. That's a pretty cool thought! Imagine the news one day "Breaking Live News: Stars in the galaxy is moving around and spelling a message! Doug - Doug Lottanews here. Let’s go to Lisa, live, right now from the observatory. Doug – So Lisa, can the astronomers see what the message says yet Lisa – It’s starting to come together, and they think it will start making sense in a few seconds. Lisa – Actually they have it here on the monitor, and it looks like it starts with an “I”. Lisa – Wait, yes, now we can read it, it says: [editors edit - crazy-tiger] "We apologise for the inconvenience" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just interested....what evidence would an atheist/agnostic need to believe? You can make it personal to yourself. Thanks <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Believe what? (ok, I know you mean believe in god... I just find it amusing that you didn't specify a subject of that belief ) As for what evidence I, personally, would need... Well, god showing up on my doorstep would be a good start. (It'd have me believing that I was insane, but at least I'd be believing...) Maybe a flight of angels passing overhead... (maybe not... it's such an unusual occurence that no-one would believe me and I'd get thrown in the funny farm at high speed) Dying and finding out there IS an afterlife and that it's the one described in the bible would be a surefire way to make me believe... but by then it'd be too late. Having something happen for which there is NO POSSIBLE NATURAL EXPLAINATION would go a long way towards it. (shame that all these "miracles" we hear about don't fit that criteria...) To be honest, the ONLY evidence that would get me to "believe" would be conclusive proof that it's all true... and the only way to GET that is to die and find out. (which makes it hard to bring it back to show to people ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Imagine the news one day "Breaking Live News: Stars in the galaxy is moving around and spelling a message! Doug - Doug Lottanews here. Let’s go to Lisa, live, right now from the observatory. Doug – So Lisa, can the astronomers see what the message says yet Lisa – It’s starting to come together, and they think it will start making sense in a few seconds. Lisa – Actually they have it here on the monitor, and it looks like it starts with an “I”. Lisa – Wait, yes, now we can read it, it says: “I’m sorry for the inconvenience.” <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, no, no, no, no... It's "We apologise for the inconvenience" :edit: that's proof that there is more than one god... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been borg again Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 All it would take is for him to arrange the stars in written form that all would be able to understand, no matter what language or disability. He could write..."I am the Creator God, be kind and loving, all of you and you shall have eternal life....The True Religion is [insert religion]. Stop killing each other and be GOOD!!" Wow, now if he did that, everyone would be set straight and there would be no more struggling, trying to understand what he wanted us to do. Right there, written in the stars and would stand forever and ever. No more religious wars, etc. If God put all the stars in place, surely he could rearrange them so that we all would know. Maybe a cross or symbol of the right religion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yea but dont you realize THANKFUL that God doesnt do this because he loves you too much to validate His existance? Sorry but your going to have to wait until the moment after death for a validation of this magnitude, and at that exact moment God has already stripped away your Freewill, so it'll be too late. ... yes GOd thinks hes got a great sense of humour and thats the punchline to Gods Cosmic Joke.... what? dont you think its funny? Well someones got to be the butt of the Joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 If you were about to step into a hole and I called your attention to it, to what extent would I be taking away your free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 The sign I would like would be a witch skywriting "SURRENDER RO-BEAR". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 All any god would have to do in order to make me believe is a very simple thing, something that BibleGod already pledged himself to do, and yet hasn't seen fit to follow up on it for some strange reason. Answer a prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just interested....what evidence would an atheist/agnostic need to believe?At minimum, a holy testament that actually makes sense. I expect internal consistancy within the scripture and external consistancy with the world in which it describes. I don't know where to find this strange land described in the Bible, but I live on Earth, and my planet never had a giant flood nor was it created 6000 years ago. It would also require a creator who didn't behave as though he doesn't exist (unlike Yahwey). For a being who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, Yahwey sure seems indifferent about our plight. Finally, it would require explanatory power. I'm tired of "God did it" as the official answer to everything. That's an assertion. Not an explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 No, no, no, no, no...It's "We apologise for the inconvenience" :edit: that's proof that there is more than one god... Yeah, that's right, it was a while ago I read it. (The Book, not the message) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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