♦ nivek ♦ Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 JFdC.. "The questions you are asking are........?" I am not the sharpest knife in camp drawer, however I can't see a place where you started a polling or questioning of those here... In a dialog of any sort, if you want specific answers, you generate specific questions, sort through incoming data and extrapolate whatcha want.. As the Dad's of the girls I dated asked me years ago.. "Whacha hereafter?" n, well armed un-thiest and curbside seagull carcass sorter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MalaInSe Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 With all due respect, I thought there would be some in this forum who had abandoned Christianity for some of the same things I am trying to address in this survey I am conducting, namely the lax commitment to faith activities among those who claim to be Christians. I didn't know that postings in this forum would open up such a barrage of harsh words, and it was certainly not my point to incite that. Having said that, I didn't think it was inappropriate to post here because I thought some people here, being ex-Christians, might have been in a position to offer insight on the things I am researching. Maybe I misread things. If I did, I'm sorry. I'm only trying to get as many different views on problems in Christianity, and maybe this is one place that isn't going to be effective insofar as my research is concerned. No harm intended, and I'm sorry if I ended up stirring things up with my posting. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I get it. I think the problem is that they don't really apply and we're not sure how you want us to answer. I haven't been a Christian in many years, and hypocrisy isn't why I left, so it's very hard for me to answer your questions in any valuable way. If you want to put together something more relevant to the exchristian experience, I would be happy to respond. Renee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 With all due respect, I thought there would be some in this forum who had abandoned Christianity for some of the same things I am trying to address in this survey I am conducting, namely the lax commitment to faith activities among those who claim to be Christians. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Here's your first real clue. That is a straw man that christians made up. People don't leave christianity because of hypocrites. Christians like to say they do, but they don't. This site is a testament to that. Hypocrites do repel outsiders, but to leave christianity because you didn't like the way christians failed to practice it would be the dumbest thing ever. It'd be like saying 'all you people drive too slow on the freeway, so I'm gonna walk!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 **sigh** Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs on this site, and the fact that I'd guess that hypocrisy in "organized religion" has driven many people away from belief, I'm asking for opinions, not diatribes. It's obvious that a lot of people have a lot of bones to pick with religion. That's perfectly fine. But I would think that ex-Christians would appreciate the efforts of someone like myself who, though being "on the inside" with regard to Christianity, is trying to flush out the hypocrites. If doing that isn't a worthy goal, then I'm not sure what would be. They just don't get it. They all think hypocracy somehow drew us away from the "truth." Here's some news for all you christians, we could really give a if the christians we know are good, bad, green, blue, gay, straight, or something in between. We were driven away from christianity, organized or other because it just isn't true. Now stop telling us how shallow and stupid we are by implying that we would leave the "truth" because of a bit of hypocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Whilst for as long as I can remember I have queried this bit or that bit about the christian faith, I embarked on the questioning that finally led to me leaving the church for completely shalow and feckless reasons ... The sub group within my church who looked like they had the most fun, had the best line in witty banter and sometimes had secret conversations between themselves during the sermon seduced me with the offer of a book that the pastor had said we shouldn't read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 jesusfreak, As I indicated in my first post to this thread, there is indeed a vile problem within the flock....what perhaps I did not make clear is that despite being fully aware of their hypocracy, and the not-so-subtle insults I would ocasionally recieve from them, I stayed a member of that group for over eight years. EIGHT YEARS. I did not leave because the christians were mean to me (I have to correct my mother on this every time we talk). If anything....I stayed because they were such bitches. I did not want to give them the satisfaction, the power, or the ego trip succesfully forcing my departure would have given them. I'd seen them take vile pleasure in that kind of thing before. I left the church because life was keeping me busy...college and all. I slowly left christianity thanks to enlightenment and study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtdude Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 ...I thought there would be some in this forum who had abandoned Christianity for some of the same things I am trying to address in this survey I am conducting, namely the lax commitment to faith activities among those who claim to be Christians. Hi jf, Sounds like you've gotten at least one response: people generally become apostates because they cannot believe the tenets of the dogma any longer. If it were just the annoying hypocrisy that everyone in the world displays, leaving the church would be a useless act. I've found just as many shallow, judgmental and critical pains in the ass outside of the church as I found inside. Your assumption has angered some here possibly because they tire of answering this question over and over. It strikes a nerve. It's not my personal response, but I get it. I guess you caught me in my "open minded" mood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 **sigh** Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs on this site, and the fact that I'd guess that hypocrisy in "organized religion" has driven many people away from belief, I'm asking for opinions, not diatribes. It's obvious that a lot of people have a lot of bones to pick with religion. That's perfectly fine. But I would think that ex-Christians would appreciate the efforts of someone like myself who, though being "on the inside" with regard to Christianity, is trying to flush out the hypocrites. If doing that isn't a worthy goal, then I'm not sure what would be. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I just personally feel that most do not leave Christianity primarily to hypocrisy for very long. These people are usually easily lured back. Those aren't the problems with Christianity, in my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gypsy Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 this was interesting and it surprised me. i think i have only met one ex-christian and i'm not totally sure how ex-christian she is. i tend to be vocal about my non-belief and frequent anger when the subject comes up. i was vocal when i was still in the church...i told people i was having a 'crisis of faith'. i was told to read my bible more or pray more. praying was already at that in the spirit of prayer all day every day. but reading my bible was only done anymore to prove the church people wrong about yet another ridiculous bit of nonsense they were shoving down our throats. i didn't leave for hypocrits. i left to preserve what was left of my sanity and intelligence. most of the people i knew were not hypocrits. they practiced what they believed and they half killed me with their frickin love. they lovingly told me how i was destroying my family and myself by not submitting to god. they did all the things the bible told them to do (depending on the interpretation of the week). there was no more hypocrisy than there is anywhere else. the church is just plain destructive and wrong. you can't take a book as messed up as the bible and make it into something good unless you ignore most of it. i have a close cousin whose husband is a pastor. for a long time they kept telling me how much i would love their church because it was different and how they weren't hypocrits. no amount of my saying that had nothing to do with it mattered to them. and my husband has gotten all teary eye, blaming himself as not being a good enough example, and he knows that is why i am not a christian anymore. i really thought it was just me or my husband or my relatives. that is why this is so interesting. i never realized that christians everywhere blame themselves or the other church people for those of us who left. stop beating yourself up, jesus freak. it's not your fault or the hypocrits in your church. i don't want to help you 'fix' the church. i have only found this site about a week ago, and i was really happy about being able to read and post and not sit here and shake. i really do shake terrible when i am around christians or talk about my history with them. but i haven't gotten like that once in all the reading i've been doing here - until now. talking about this addressed to you, a church person, has me physically shaking. reaching for the klonopin, gypsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalli Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 *big safe hugs for gypsy* JesusFreakDotCom: If open-mindedness is one of the marks of being a non-Christian, I'm not seeing it. If Christianity is really a non-entity, ignore it and it will go away. I'm offering this survey for those who are open-minded enough to take it.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Everyone, whether Christian or non-Christian, is human, and hence none (or at least very few) of us are completely rational or completely open-minded all the time. No matter what group you care to look in, you'll find people of all sorts. So you can't walk into a room full of ex-Christians and expect us all to be cheery and open-minded and happily lend you a hand. And you can't expect the reasons why not to all be the same, either. Some people here see Christianity as either without value or of negative value and will thus be rather disinclined to give Christianity any help at all. It's akin to, say, a Wiccan high priest asking you to help his circle become closer to their God and Goddess and live lives more in accordance with their beliefs. Maybe you think there's nothing wrong helping others strengthen their faith, regardless of what their faith is, and would help him. Or maybe you think Wicca is the wrong path for anyone to be walking, and would not want to help anyone further down that path. Hopefully you can see both sides to that argument, and thus see why some ex-Christians wouldn't be so happy to help a Christian with his fellows either. Some people here are inherently suspicious of Christians, especially ones who choose to come to this site. With the exception of a valued few, most of the Christians who visit here are here to proseletyse, often aggressively so. And yes, many of them play the tactic of offering olive branches at first to get us to accept them before launching hellfire and brimstone at us. What if you were running a forum for Christians and often got militant atheists coming in to try to argue with and deconvert you? It's irrational, but it is human nature to be initially suspicious of "intruders" until they show their colours. It's obvious that a lot of people have a lot of bones to pick with religion. That's perfectly fine. But I would think that ex-Christians would appreciate the efforts of someone like myself who, though being "on the inside" with regard to Christianity, is trying to flush out the hypocrites. If doing that isn't a worthy goal, then I'm not sure what would be.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Some people on this site have bones to pick with religion/Christianity because they feel it is inherently destructive, both to individuals and to society as a whole. From this point of view, flushing out the hypocrites would do more harm than good, by strengthening the core of what is - again, from this point of view - a destructive movement. (c.f. my example with the Wiccan high priest above.) If Sunnis and Kurds in Iraq can sit down at the same table and carry on a reasonable dialogue without killing each other (literally), is it too much to ask that both Christians and non-Christians can do the same? I for one am extending an olive branch and would hope that others here might actually be willing to discuss rather than rant. Am I asking too much? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Sunnis and Kurds both stand to gain from the negotiating table. Peace, mutual respect and co-operation leads to prosperity for both sides. However, what it seems you are proposing is that ex-Christians point out the hypocrisy of Christians in order to get more Christians to toe the line and weed out those who won't. I'm not sure I really see how that helps us. Add to that the fact that some of us have been emotionally scarred by our experiences with Christianity, and that makes us even less likely to help you when there's little to gain for us. Why go to a website that's liable to trigger flashbacks or panic attacks, especially if the pain isn't worth whatever benefits might ensue? With all due respect, I thought there would be some in this forum who had abandoned Christianity for some of the same things I am trying to address in this survey I am conducting, namely the lax commitment to faith activities among those who claim to be Christians.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ahh, and here we come to the crux of the issue. See, the vast majority (or perhaps all) of the ex-Christians here did not deconvert because the Christians around us weren't praying enough or reading their bible enough. Yes, some of us started questioning because we saw too much infighting, backstabbing, cruelty and abuse among the Christians around us. However, most of us finally deconverted not because of what our Christian neighbors said or did, but because our doubting lead us to look at scripture and scripture, not people, ultimately let us down. And not a single person I've come across so far on this site has left Christianity because the Christians around them weren't committed enough to their faith. My guess would be if a Christian was disappointed with the lax attitude of their brothers and sisters towards their faith, they would move on to a more committed church or worship on their own, not deconvert completely. I didn't know that postings in this forum would open up such a barrage of harsh words, and it was certainly not my point to incite that. Having said that, I didn't think it was inappropriate to post here because I thought some people here, being ex-Christians, might have been in a position to offer insight on the things I am researching. Maybe I misread things. If I did, I'm sorry. I'm only trying to get as many different views on problems in Christianity, and maybe this is one place that isn't going to be effective insofar as my research is concerned. No harm intended, and I'm sorry if I ended up stirring things up with my posting.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I can understand your point of view, and why you thought posting here might have been a good idea. However, I also think the reaction to your posts was understandable, especially considering the some of the views held here and some of the (occasionally very deep) scars borne by some of the members here. You might do to tread a bit more carefully next time you engage in such a venture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 **sigh** Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs on this site, and the fact that I'd guess that hypocrisy in "organized religion" has driven many people away from belief, I'm asking for opinions, not diatribes.No no no... Religious hypocrisy has nothing to do with it. That's bullshit. Why does every Christian who comes here assume that we were driven away from religion emotionally? I know of two possible explanations... 1) Christians, by their nature, are more prone to making judgement based on emotion rather than rationality, so they assume that non-Christians do the same. 2) They'd rather assume that non-Christians left because they had some bad experience at church than consider the scarier possibility that the non-Christian actually left because Christianity doesn't make sense and therefore cannot be true. As someone already stated, we're not Christians because Christianity simply isn't true. Christians are expected to take the entire Bible literally, but that's impossible, because even the Gospels themselves don't tell a coherent story. There are problems within the Bible that cannot be resolved, so saying that the Bible is the literal truth is meaningless. And sure, there are apologists who try really hard to make everything work. But in the end, that's futile as well, because apologists cannot justify their own work. If the Bible is the word of God, then it should be able to speak to all people. Since when does God need help? And let me tell you something about openmindedness. Being openminded doesn't mean that you withhold judgement on every cockamamie story every told. Being openminded means that you're open to new possibilities and new ideas; not long discredited stories and myths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 With all due respect, I thought there would be some in this forum who had abandoned Christianity for some of the same things I am trying to address in this survey I am conducting, namely the lax commitment to faith activities among those who claim to be Christians. I didn't know that postings in this forum would open up such a barrage of harsh words, and it was certainly not my point to incite that. Having said that, I didn't think it was inappropriate to post here because I thought some people here, being ex-Christians, might have been in a position to offer insight on the things I am researching. Maybe I misread things. If I did, I'm sorry. I'm only trying to get as many different views on problems in Christianity, and maybe this is one place that isn't going to be effective insofar as my research is concerned. No harm intended, and I'm sorry if I ended up stirring things up with my posting. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We left so we could lead a life of sin and debauchery.. (Someone actually told me that was why I "turned away") soooo..when does it start? My life now is no different than it was while still in it, except I'm not reading, studying and extolling the virtues of christianity on a daily basis. More time for psp and photograghry..and my grandchild.. JF, if you really want to know why people left, why not read the testimonies of why they left? The hypocrites don't leave. Why should they? They have the best of both worlds. If you want to keep the church together, take away the bibles, don't let them read them. Definately limit other reading materials, especially science books. No discussion, no debate and certainly no independant study. That will keep them there. If they start actually studying..with an open mind, without preconceived notions on what is and isn't in the bible..and what is and isn't "god's" will in a given situation, beyond church tradition..you're gonna lose 'em.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Why do I have about a dozen warning bells going off in my head? This has probably been said already, but please read the anti-testimonies and other posts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Okay, I will be nice and answer the questions, even though I can tell they don’t address the real problems with Christianity, or the reason why people become Ex-Christians. What reasons do Christians give as to why they don't share their faith? Because they’re afraid and the cause being: they don’t have enough faith. They can’t argue or defend their faith with logical arguments and they know it, and hence avoid the confrontation which would reveal their incompetence. Why they don't pray? Because they don’t get any answers, or the answer is “No” all the time. Why they don't read the Word of God? Because the Bible is riddled with evil actions of God and it’s full of contradictions that confuse their minds. They want to keep their sanity so they refrain from reading it. They get the feeling it doesn’t make sense, and since the pastor tell them what to believe; they don’t have a need to study for themselves, but become robots of faith. Why they don't go to church? Because the emotional high they get in church dissipates during the week, and the strong faith they got in church on Sunday deteriorate into doubts the following days. It is too much of a high/low emotional rollercoaster that some people can’t handle and disrupts their daily lives that can be hard enough as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 I thought there would be some in this forum who had abandoned Christianity for some of the same things I am trying to address in this survey I am conducting, namely the lax commitment to faith activities among those who claim to be Christians. That is such a stereotype. Also, assuming that we are such because of the hypocrisy is a stereotype. It may be one reason for some people, but most people left for many reasons. Please read the Anti-Testimonies here. I realize it takes more than two minutes to do so. Do it when you have a spare hour or two. Grab some munchies, make some coffee, tea, or whatever you like to drink, and read for awhile. Then come back when you have questions. But please don't just lump everyone into categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest marktaylor Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Whilst for as long as I can remember I have queried this bit or that bit about the christian faith, I embarked on the questioning that finally led to me leaving the church for completely shalow and feckless reasons ... The sub group within my church who looked like they had the most fun, had the best line in witty banter and sometimes had secret conversations between themselves during the sermon seduced me with the offer of a book that the pastor had said we shouldn't read. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There was a group of atheist infiltrators in your church? Sounds like fun. Which book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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