Grandmother Had My Daughter Baptized

[Reach]

ZombieJesusAteMyBrains... I feel for you and I can understand your outrage over your mother having your daughter baptized without your consent. I can also relate to your disappointment with yourself for allowing this situation to develop in the first place.

 

However, I honestly think that, given time, this is something that will be a nonissue. What harm will come to your daughter because she got dunked in a baptismal tank? What change might transpire in her life because she has submitted to a brief dip in the tub at the local Church of Christ? We know from experience that water in church does nothing to change anyone. It is simply a waste of water.

 

After your anger has subsided, I hope you'll be able to extract the valuable lessons you have learned and let this whole mess fade to the background. Water under the bridge, so they say?

 

Water is powerless to change your daughter. You need not fear that which is impotent and powerless.

 

I would give the same advice as Vigile did and that's the last Saturday night my children would spend with their grandmother.

[Vigile]

I'm not really sure how this is a legal issue. I see where you are coming from WR, I'm just not sure that in US courts any church would be liable for something like this. Yes it's offensive, but I'm pretty sure the courts would take a fairly hands off approach to this potential hot potato. I'm willing to be proven wrong if anyone knows of any precedence for this sort of thing.

 

In any case, I agree with LostorFound. You seem to be a good mother Zombie. Hopefully we have helped somewhat, but it seems like you have a good handle on things.

[white_raven23]

You're probably right Vigile. Secular law won't touch it. Oddly, "church law" might though. Everything I was able to find regarding baptism and parental consent made it pretty clear that baptism shouldn't take place without it concerning an underage minor. There was even some detail regarding a signed parental consent form.

 

http://www.americancatholic.org/newsletters/yu/ay1200.asp (nauseating....so I'll spare you)

 

Q. Were my parents able to decide on their own to have me baptized—or were other people involved?

A. Being part of the Church means that other people are always involved in the celebration of the sacraments. Nevertheless, the request to have you baptized had to come from your parents. Canon law (the law of the Church) prohibits the celebration of any of the sacraments with children except with parental consent. Sometimes parents who are minimally involved with the Church are pressured by family or friends to have their baby baptized. Parents should not request Baptism for children unless they are willing to show their children—through their lives—what it means to be a committed Catholic.

 

And then there's Mormons

http://www.askgramps.org/is-it-legal-in-th...rental-consent/

(this one's shorter, and not so christian gooey....but in case you'd rather skip it...)

If there does occur a instance where a minor child is baptized without those responsible being aware of the parents’ objections, an appropriate accommodation would be made. If the parents were to require that the baptism be revoked, their demand would be honored, and the baptism would be considered as null and void.

And then there's this.....here's where the parental consent form comes in....(though I think there's a certain BS here)

http://ctlibrary.com/823

Anchor Baptist senior pastor Chris Pledger told CT that no one was "forced" to do anything and that the promised entertainment took place after the baptisms. He further maintains that parental authorizations were given via permission slips signed to bus children to the church.

 

So most churches do acknowledge that parental consent is needed, and there have been problems such as churches getting pretty bad press for not doing so.

[Rhia]

I don't know if this is the "too extreme" solution, but I would go so far as to hire a deprogrammer, forbid her to ever enter a church again, and cut off her relationship from her grandmother- even going as far as obtaining a protection from abuse order for both yourself and your children for "emotional & mental abuse".

 

I was baptized at 13 as well, and I wish with everything in me that I could go back and erase that it ever happened. None of this was to her benefit, especially hearing her grandmother begin to scream, wail, and rant. If she's willing to do that in front of you, your family, and her husband- what will she do in church when the "spirit of the Lord" comes upon her?

 

I'm so sorry that she's felt she could go over your head with such a delicate and personal family decision.

[Dave]

It seems that baptism is being legitimized here when the ritual has zero power beyond it's power to indoctrinate. .....

I don't think it's that so much as the mother in law going against the parents wishes.

[godlessgrrl]

Wow. That all's hardcore.

 

I think your mom just lost the privilege of being able to see her granddaughters unsupervised. Forget night visits or unsupervised visits of any kind - her behavior is controlling and irrational, as exhibited by her willingness to go behind your back on matters as serious as religious upbringing, and by her abusive, screaming outbreak at your house after the fact.

 

Additionally, if she's taking it into the workplace she and your spouse share, that warrants a call or talk with somebody in HR regarding the issue of religious harassment on the job. Or a call to the EEOC, or whatever other legal resources there might be for preventing workplace harassment issues in your area. That is NOT okay for her to take the fight to work.

 

I will also add my voice to those who have mentioned that you need to tell your daughter that none of this is her fault, but rather that grandma overstepped boundaries that you weren't clear about in the first place. And it sounds like you've already talked about that with her, so that's good.

 

If something like this happened in my own family, I'd fight back, and fight back hard. But that's just kind of how I do things. I spent so many years of my life being abused, manipulated, and exploited by other people that I never want to be in a position like that again. So when someone infringes on my personal boundaries, I don't fuck around about it anymore, if I think it serious enough - because if I don't speak up and make a fuss, I'll just get walked on even more.

 

Anyway. Keep us posted, and good luck.

[mick]

Here's my opinion. If Christianity is false then it fucking sucks. (It actually sucks even if it were true, but that is besides the point.)

 

Because it is false, too many people are royally fucked up, including me and my little ones. (Though I am working on them)

 

Because of that, we have an obligation to prevent them from being brainwashed with life dammaging lies. In my case, it is my own wife who still wants to indoctrinate, so that is a tough problem for me. If it were a grand parent only, I would completely stop them, and tell nothing but the truth that I now believe.

 

Mick

[Guest ZombieJesusAteMyBrains]

Wow! Thanks for all the words of advice for a newbie like myself. I appreciate the concern and well wishes. Trust me, this has been quite an ordeal, but like I said, some good has definitely come from it all, just in the talks we've had with our daughters alone and we've all grown closer (and wiser) because of it. I have not decided whether or not I will continue to allow my mother to be a part of our lives, but for now I do not wish to be in the same room with her so it has put a damper on our family Xmas plans, but so what. We stay home and save ourselves the 4 hour round trip drive to see my grandparents. The money we save in gas can be $ spent on an extra gift for the kids. I'm trying to remain positive. One thing is for certain, there will be new ground rules when it comes to the time my mother spends with my kids. I will no longer allow them to go to the Church of Christ. They have found numerous ways to offend me. It's a shame so many members of my family are affiliated with that church.

 

In my testimonial I mentioned that when I was a child my mother married a child-molester who was a leader in our church youth group. When the courts awarded my father custody of us, the church did nothing to revoke his activities with children. He was even allowed to be alone with young boys as a dorm supervisor at the church youth camp. Why did my mother marry this man? Why did the church continue to allow this man in their congregation? Because according to the Bible, they had to forgive him. It still makes absolutely no sense to me. While one congregation excommunicated my parents for getting divorced, this man can harm their children and is only told he has to go to counseling? "Hey brethren, let's all just forgive and forget this ever happened. He seems sorry enough, surely he won't hurt another child because he's a good christian man of his word." I don't know about you but I'd never let a known child molester anywhere NEAR my kids no matter which god he prayed to!!! So unforgiving in the one instance, so forgiving in the other. Nope, makes no sense at all.

 

If that marriage wasn't proof enough of my mother's instability, she next married a prison inmate, a lifer convicted of murder. Again, the forgiveness factor comes in. She also allowed one of his prisoner friends to move into her basement when he got out of the joint. He brought his trailer trash ex and her 4 kids to live with him. They were something else... my mother let them walk all over her. It makes her happy to be a martyr as long as everyone pities her situation. When I wouldn't allow my kids to stay with her as long as these people lived in their basement she went ballistic! I pointed out how right I was later when she told me about the woman getting drunk in the middle of the night and threatening to commit suicide in front of all her kids. This woman also stole from her and committed credit card fraud against her and my cousins who had previously lived there. Total trash! But these are the people she communes with because she sees herself as some kind of good samaritan! She divorced the inmate once she found out he had been cheating on her with his stepsister (though she herself had cheated with multiple men, allowing one guy she met on the internet to come live with her and borrow thousands of $$ from her!!)

 

When she married her 4th husband (she met him on the internet and married him a few months later), I told her I didn't trust him enough to allow my kids to stay the night with them. Could anyone blame me? After being around him, I realized he's probably more stable than she is and I actually started to like the guy. It's such a shame he has had to see this crazy side of her. This is what I don't understand about my mother. She is so quick to find fault with others but cannot see how her own bad decisions have caused problems in her life. She'd like to blame this all on my husband, but she doesn't realize what she has done to cause me not to trust her and not want my kids to be around her.

 

I used to feel guilty for wanting to keep my children from her. All those years I wanted to forgive her for being so dumb and placing herself, her own children and the lives of many others at risk with her poor decisions. Now I see all my guilt and fears stemmed from a few silly Bible verses. According to the church and the adults we trusted to PROTECT us, we were wrong for feeling the hurt inflicted by that bastard. If we didn't forgive and turn the other cheek, we would not be forgiven of our own sins. How wrong it was for them to insist that a child turn the other cheek to be ABUSED again!!!

 

It wasn't until recently in the last year or two that I've even allowed myself to FEEL the pain of what happened to me and my brother and sister and this is 20 some years later!

 

I'll be damned if I allow my kids to be warped by people like that. I think it might be best to cut ties with her altogether, it's just harder than it sounds as I'm sure you can imagine. I know I'm probably just ranting here but it really does help to get it all out. I have explained to my kids that sometimes grandma doesn't think right and doesn't make good decisions. I find it hard to tell them about the abuse though. Maybe when they are older.

[Blue elephant]

Hi ZombieJesusAteMyBrains

 

My daughter wanted to get baptised a year ago, when she was 12. She had a school friend who was AOG.

 

i decided that it was best to not forbid her to do this, because the Christian propaganda tends to make them cling more strongly in the the face of what they see as persecution.

 

over the past few years, we have had a number of conversations about various concepts withing Christianity, including the origin of evil if God was all there was to start with, and how to proceed if the theory and the practice don't agree etc etc etc.

So.. her Dad and i took her to the swimming pool to be baptised but didn't congratulate her or anything. Made ourselves available if she need to be driven to church or anything.

 

What happened? She fell out with the friend and that was the end of church. She is now 13 and entertaining Wiccan philosophies. But all the time, she is thinking about moral codes and how you should treat other people, social justice etc etc etc.

 

I don't think you can forbid them the ractice of religion by the time they get to 12 and 13, even if their reasons are illogical and immature. You can only make them think logically and critically ("evidence based" as they say in medicine).

 

As for your mother!!!! That is disrespectful and dishonest. in a VERY laid back way over a matter of months your daughter might benefit from understanding that even from a biblical perspective the wrong thing was done (deceit and not allowing the parents primacy in the upbringing of their children).

 

I think you should be cutting contact for quite a while with your mother and any other god-bothering members of your family. ie Christmas Day this year - nuh-uh!! i refused to see my mother for 5 or 6 years because of her bad behaviour. She behaved herself after that!!

 

THEN she can see grandmother at large family gatherings like Christmas Day. By then your daughter will be further down the road to truly independent and logical thought.

 

You won't ever get an apology out of your mother for what she has done, so don't frustrate yourself by looking for one.

 

I'm pretty sure this will all blow over for you. just support your daughter in her capacity for independent thought and affirm her for making a decision even if it was done without enough research.

[white_raven23]

I have explained to my kids that sometimes grandma doesn't think right and doesn't make good decisions. I find it hard to tell them about the abuse though. Maybe when they are older.

 

Be careful saying 'maybe when they are older'. You blink....and they are older. Now what? Pick an age. Read a book or two about discussing this sensitive subject with your kids. It is embarrassing to let your kids in on the fact that their family is less than perfect, but it's a damn sight better than kinda sorta letting them figure it out for themselves.

[ShackledNoMore]

Zombie, it sounds like you've been handling the aftermath of this fiasco very well. I think the dialog that ensued with your daughter really was a silver lining. ...and you're in good company: if I wasn't estranged from my mother, I wouldn't let my kids anywhere near her unsupervised to be immersed with her rigid and harmful indoctrination.

[PaulQ]

Zombie,

 

Sometimes, you need to cut the ties that bind. This is one of those times. I also recommend you be as open and honest with your own flesh-and-blood daughter as you have been with people you've never met here at Ex-Christian.Net; at 13, she is not too young. It wouldn't hurt to contact the church as per their canon law as white raven23 suggested. Signing and hanging some De-Baptism certificates will probably make everyone feel better right about now.

 

I also wholly agree with gwenmead's advice at seeking legal advice regarding your mother bringing this into the workplace. This is clearly an act of war on your mothers part (not to mention highly illegal); she drew the battle lines. You and your husband will need to hit back with everything at your disposal to protect yourselves and put her back in her place. She obviously doesn't think of you two as mature adults; but she will be forced to if and when you and your husband take legal action. You need to do this in order to take back every bit of ground she's attempting to steal from you both. You need to demonstrate that you and your family are stronger than her and her faith.

 

Sounds like your mother has put a lot of the mistakes she's made in life on her religion. No wonder she's so adamant about it. I'd make sure she gets a mailed copy of the De-Baptism certificates. It might help to cut those ties once and for all. It's a difficult choice, but as far as I can see, also your only one.

 

At the end of the day, perhaps in a few years, your mother may recognize the errors of her ways and might even come around one christmas. It ain't gonna happen unless you take drastic defensive measures first, and keep your family (including your daughter) fully informed of everything that has transpired.