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My Couisons Church Is F***d Up


Ramen666
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First let me start saying that I am actually defending my couisons side on this issue.

 

Well my couison is one of those country folk lives out in Missouri. Married and has kids and all that. They are extremly fundie on what they buy their kids and everything. They listen to Focus on the Family my cousions husband went to Promise Keepers and all that. This is just so good background information but they are "good" Christians in other words.

 

Well this is where the story began:

 

My cousion said she had a vision/dream and God told her to adopt children from Africa. ( This is off the ball I didn't agree with it) However she said she was wanting to do that and she and her husband were all excited. However that didn't last long the church they went to they told us did not support them in anyway. Said what they were doing was not normal, that it was a bad idea for adopting those people. My cousion being a fundie saw the racism come out of the people and they began to be looked down upon. My cousion didn't understand why everyone is all of sudden hating them and looking down upon them. The ones they thought were their friends betrayed them and they saw the evils in these people.

 

An Update recently my cousion and her family did leave the church because the racism and everything. They still are Christian :shrug: ( I don't know why) but they are without a church now. :scratch:

 

I want to know what you people think of this ordeal it is sickening from the begining to the end.

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My ex's sister and her husband are fundy. They get involved in a church. I mean really involved. They teach Sunday school, lead the Youth Groups, have Bible studies at their home, host church related events in their home, yada, yada, yada.

 

Because they become so involed they see the really bad side of the church, the hypocricy, the back biting, the politics, one pastor was stealing money, etc.

 

So, they always quit their church and find another one, but there is always the same bullshit in the new church. After another church, and another church, and another church, they are not going to church at all.

 

My kids went up there for Thanksgiving. Their Uncle raises tropical fish as a hobby and sells them to pet stores. He has at least 30 fishtanks. So, he knows a lot about tropical fish. My son and his cousin, who is 8, were looking at the fish and his cousin was telling my son how the fish evolved. Yes, evolved. My son could not believe his ears. The only way for an 8 year old, who has spent his life in Christian schools and has lived with ultra fundy parents to know about evolution, would be for someone he trusted and believed to tell him about it. Who else would he believe and trust, but a parent?

 

I am not close to them anymore to know for sure, but it seems they may have left Christianity.

 

Hopefully, your cousin and her husband will realise what a crock Christianity is by all the bullshit Christians spew out.

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Racism was one of the things that really bothered me about living in the south. When I was 16 I had a summer internship at a gospel radio station in North Carolina. During this internship I actually stayed with the station manager and his family at their home, and went with them pretty much everywhere. One weekend we visited his brother in the next town. When we pulled into his brother's apartment complex, there was a black man standing in the doorway of an apartment. The next thing I knew, the window was rolled down and the station manager was yelling at the man "n-----, you don't belong here! go away n-----" or something to that effect.

 

This yankee boy was shocked and embarrassed, to say the least. I was never raised like that. My Catholic yankee father, to his credit, was about as much against prejudice as anyone I have ever known. And these people were supposedly *christians* to boot. At the time, I was very confused.

 

I found the same thing when I moved my family to SW Virginia back in early 2000. I find it disgusting and revolting. When we lived down there our kids were about the only white kids that were allowed to play with the black kids in the neighborhood. We never gave it a second thought. Of course, the other thing we found down there was that it was easy to be a christian. Everyone was a damned christian, and if you weren't people thought you were from a different planet.

 

I just don't understand some people's mindset.

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I grew up with racism. At my school, a German Lutheran one, we were taught about how the Holocaust was God punishing the Jews for killing His Son - a sad punishment, yes, one that shouldn't have happened, but the Jews asked for it. (I never quite understood that, even as a kid. So what if they didn't kill His Son [which, incidentally, they didn't]? So we would never be saved by Christ's blood then?)

 

We never, ever associated with blacks, Hispanics, or even Asians. I am being perfectly honest with you, and am not holding back nor exaggerating when I tell you that my childhood view of the non-white races was as such:

 

1. Blacks. Blacks were an entirely different species who were not as human as whites were. They could be converted to Lutheran Christianity - we of course had all kinds of missionaries in Africa (coughcoughtakingtheirmoneycoughcough) - but you couldn't depend on them to be much good for anything else. They lacked the mental capacity.

 

2. Hispanics. Hispanics were closer to whites but mostly cartoonish in a Speedy-Gonzales kind of way. They were also drunken and criminals. They were Catholics so unless your missionary dollars that went to Catholic outreach managed to convince them to turn from their papist ways, they were Satanists and hell-bound and thus their poisonous influence should be avoided at all costs. No one should mate with a Hispanic.

 

3. Asians. Asians could be very useful people, especially the Koreans, who seemed especially eager to swallow the Lutheran Christian pill. It was a great thing for a missionary to pick a nice Asian girl out of a catalog and bring her here to the US, where paradoxically she would be liberated by her pagan Asian ways by being his totally submissive and silent young wife who served little more purpose then to be a trophy at church functions and to bear his children. Asian men could be used for the same purpose by Christian women, but it wasn't as highly regarded nor popular.

 

When I started attending public school, I was near blacks, non-Christians, etc. for the first time. I remember there was a kid in my class whose father was from Thailand or Cambodia or some such place. His father came in to tell us about his native land one day. Part of his discussion was his Buddhist religion. I embarrassed the hell out of the poor guy. I just couldn't believe that there were people out there who didn't follow Jesus. I suppose prior to being publicly schooled I never even considered it a possibility.

 

I'm actually quite lucky I didn't get my ass kicked. I remember one time expressing genuine amazement that my black schoolmates used soap. I mean, it was so patently obvious that their skin was radically different from our own, and that their bodies probably likewise had different anatomy and needs. I never would have guessed that they lived pretty much the same way I did.

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My mother's side of the family are blue bloods from the deep south. My grandparents sometimes go on about their "colored" friends nowdays as if they are being modern and tolerant, but to hear them talk it's like listening them describe a dog that does particularly interesting tricks. Occassionally they'll slip and use the "N" word. My grandfather told me stories about this black man named Cletus that was sort of his personal servant when he was a young man...wasn't sure why, he wasn't a hired hand, I think. It was sort of like Cletus was really eager to please and wanted to be accepted, and my grandfather would order him around and make him do stuff. And Cletus would do it.

 

Needless to say, the idea made me nauseous. And I remember learning with absolute horror back in middle school about my own family history and finding out we'd owned slaves.

 

My mother left the south as fast she was out of college. She couldn't stand the hypocrisy, the elitism, and deconverted from Christianity. She moved to Japan and taught linguistics. She married my father there, had my brother in Tokyo and then had me in Hong Kong. We've been around the world several times to all different kinds of countries. Racism has no place in our family except as a shameful fact of the past.

 

Though I do remember once my mother telling me never to marry a black man, because she has no idea how she'd explain it to my grandparents and told me I'd probably be disowned.

 

Kind of makes me glad I really have no truck with my family anymore anyway.

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Well, well... what is a Christian? By any usable definition, one who professes belief in jebus as da sabiur. Nothing about pro/con racism et cetera there.

And reality proves that true. Sadly. How I wish that "christian" always := what I came to know as "christian" in my childhood. Still based on silly myths of course, but at least kind of decent and respectful of others. :scratch:

 

Sage, reading your comment makes me wonder (again) where exactly you grew up - or is it just my memory (what memory? ;) ) and you did tell me before? Where was that German Lutheran church again...? :blink:

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As someone who plans to adopt from Ethiopia (and just as a good human being either way,) I am sickened but not surprised. Since when did Christians practice the tolerance they claim is a part of their religion? Don't help babies in need! Make more! They'll be better because they'll be just like you! God wants you to make white babies!

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Oh, I just remembered some Christian bigotry, but not against race.

 

A very Baptist family I know from work goes to a church that is made up of i think five families, like 16 people, and they've been through a lot as far as having their old building have something happen to it and moving to a new one 20 miles away, so they are like a family that has been through Hell...

 

Except for the part where they treat the family I know like SHIT. These people are NOT well off financially, but have given hundreds and hundreds of dollars to this church. I'm not saying I agree with this move, but it shows that they care about the place.

 

Some of the other kids there wouldn't let the family's daughter play with them, glaring at her and telling her "we want to PRETEND to be dogs, not SMELL like one." They then got pissed when she started playing with another boy from the congregation, and tried to take that boy away from her. One of them also pushed her off of a pew with her foot. The mother of one of those kids said to my co-worker, "You work with them, LUCKY you," with obvious sarcasm. She just said, "Yeah, I AM lucky." The family is looked down upon by their "brothers and sisters" because they are poor and get health assistance for psychological reasons.

 

They may not be the cleanest folks, but even anti-fundy, why do you say paganism is evil, get your shit together for you kids, me is able to love this family a great deal. Gotta love the judgement seen in SO many Christians.

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I graduated from high school in a small town in Mississippi in 1992. I shit you not, the school was legally integrated, but practically segregated. We had a white homecoming king and queen and a black homecoming king and queen, a white homecoming dance and a black homecoming dance, a white senior trip and a black senior trip, a white "Who's Who" and a black "Who's Who," a white prom and a black prom. At football games, black people sat in one section, white people in another, and we always began the game with prayer (and we had faculty-led Christian devotions every morning--did I mention this was a public school?).

 

In high school, I "rebelled" by getting an earring :ohmy: ! The principle, an upstanding member of my church, called me into his office to express his disappointment, and to ask me why I was "tryin' to look like dem niggers?"! Sadly, I was too brain-washed to even be offended.

 

I was the associate pastor at another church at which the pastor told a racist joke from the pulpit (using the n-word at least twice).

 

As soon as I wised up (my sophomore year of college), I got the fuck out and moved to Los Angeles (and, now, to New York). Fuck that whole scene.

 

Was secession really such a bad idea? Maybe they could take Texas this time. [:woopsie: Oops, was that out loud? Just kidding, please no angry emails.]

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OMG... I live in a very inclusive, intergrated multicultural, diverse city where I am sure racism happens.... It boggles my mind that people still segregrate schools and call people the n word.. if someone did that here they would never hear the end of it.

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Sage, reading your comment makes me wonder (again) where exactly you grew up - or is it just my memory (what memory? ) and you did tell me before? Where was that German Lutheran church again...?

 

Well, I am from a mostly Catholic city in the US that was populated by Irish, Germans, and Italians (and now, Chinese and Bosnians). The German Catholics get along with everybody else. The German Lutherans hate everybody else. (You should hear some of the absolute bullshit my grandmother "taught" me about Catholics, Irish, Italians, and Jews growing up.....whoaa! It'd curl your hair).

 

Let's just say that this particular group of Lutheran German immigrants were not immune to the temptations of National-Socialist ideology. ;)

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For reference, the further out in the boonies you get in Missouri, the worse the racism gets. Last I checked there was a pretty strong white-supremicist stronghold in northern MO.

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My aunt is a good Christian women (one of few, i'm sure) who adopted kids from Vietnam. She found them naked in an orphanage because their parents were too poor to take care of them and about 3/4 of the kids in the orphanage die there witin a year or two. She adopted the two (she wanted all of them but she herself is pretty poor, she went to Vietname for a missionary trip paid by her church) and in doing so pretty much saved their lives. They have a boy and a girl. My family had absolutely no problem with them. They love them like their own.

 

So my family has no problem with the kids, I mean, i'm pretty much their favorite cousin too. :) But my aunts hinted at their being problems with people in the church and the community. The kids sort of get made fun of because their obviously very different from all the other kids, so they have to explain the whole "I wasn't born in this country and those aren't my real parent's" thing, which is hard to for kids in kindergarten, and they shouldn't have too.

 

About the racism in the south, I live in the south (Louisiana) and racism is a two-way street. Black people and white people hate each other, it's not one-sided. Your bound to get made fun as much for being white from a black guy then for being black from a white guy. I hear black people use the n-word more then I ever hear white people say it. Of course you still get white people using that word but they never dare use it in public or to a black persons face. Ever.

 

It's crazy, we have churches that are professed "blacks only" they say white people can go find a "white church" to worship at. That's not all the churchs here, but i've seen it. The bigger Baptist churchs are like 98% white with a few minorities running around who they milk into all their commercials and stuff. They will have like one black family and be like "WE ARE TOLERANT LIKE CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE! LOOK A BLACK FAMILY!" They don't actually say that but their actions do.

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About the racism in the south, I live in the south (Louisiana) and racism is a two-way street. Black people and white people hate each other, it's not one-sided. Your bound to get made fun as much for being white from a black guy then for being black from a white guy. I hear black people use the n-word more then I ever hear white people say it. Of course you still get white people using that word but they never dare use it in public or to a black persons face. Ever.

 

Lightbearer,

 

I disagree with the idea that "racism is a two-way street." While hate, bias, and prejudice certainly pulls in both directions, I would suggest that to be truly "racist," one group must have power to act on their prejudices (typically, it has been said that power + prejudice = racism). So, I agree with you that "Black people and white people hate each other" in some cases, but I do not agree that "hate" is a synonym for "racism."

 

Also, as far as the use of the n-word by members of the same race, the difference seems obviously one of connotation. It doesn't seem to connote the same thing when uttered by a member of a ruling class and a member of a person within a ruled class--e.g. if I call my sister "stupid" that's one thing, but if anyone else does, well, we're talking about a different situation altogether or a student calling another student "dumb" is one thing, but a teacher calling a student "dumb" is an issue of power + rudeness and must be dealt with differently.

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Then our definitions of racism are totally different. I define racism as prejudice (pre-judging) or judging an individual solely based on their race, for whatever reason, to hate them or to love them it's still judging based on race -- which constitutes racism.

 

Racism is morally wrong because ones race is not an attribute one picks or has anything to do with ones beliefs and actions. It's also collectivist to think in terms of race anyways. You may have a race but doesn't affect your thoughts, actions, dreams and emotions. Your still an individual and should be solely judged on that.

 

Now, if you and I got together and decided to talk about a black guy named Steve and said Steve was a total dumbass because Steve was a nigger and we hate niggers, would that, according to you, be racism? Even if we had NO power to act against Steve in anyway? Just hate them for his race?

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Then our definitions of racism are totally different. I define racism as prejudice (pre-judging) or judging an individual solely based on their race, for whatever reason, to hate them or to love them it's still judging based on race -- which constitutes racism.

 

Yes, our definitions are different. I would distinguish between prejudice and racism. Here is a definition I would accept:

 

Racism, however, is more than just prejudice and discrimination combined. Racism is a socially constructed reality at the heart of society¹s structures. Racism is the deliberate structuring of privilege by means of an objective, differential and unequal treatment of people, for the purpose of social advantage over scarce resources, resulting in an ideology of supremacy which justifies power of position by placing a negative meaning on perceived or actual biological/cultural differences. (See here)

 

Now, if you and I got together and decided to talk about a black guy named Steve and said Steve was a total dumbass because Steve was a nigger and we hate niggers, would that, according to you, be racism? Even if we had NO power to act against Steve in anyway? Just hate them for his race?

 

Are we members of a minority or part of a ruling class? Individual power is not the issue.

 

As far as I can tell, our disagreement is purely semantic. What I call prejudice, you call racism. You would also call what I think of as racism, "racism."

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Let's just say that this particular group of Lutheran German immigrants were not immune to the temptations of National-Socialist ideology. ;)

 

I see... :scratch:

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Lightbearer,

 

I disagree with the idea that "racism is a two-way street." While hate, bias, and prejudice certainly pulls in both directions, I would suggest that to be truly "racist," one group must have power to act on their prejudices (typically, it has been said that power + prejudice = racism). So, I agree with you that "Black people and white people hate each other" in some cases, but I do not agree that "hate" is a synonym for "racism."

From what I understand that is definition of racism.

 

We visited my family in Mississippi every year, and I remember at 15 listening in the kitchen to all my extended family going on about nigger this and nigger that. It was difficult, and I asked if they could use black instead. They all looked at me, and my cousin asked me if I was a n-word lover. I said no, but they are human beings. They just started talking about something else, and I just sat there. Later that evening my uncle told me I was a true yankee. At the time, I was proud of that fact, but I realize that in my own state, you get past the liberal cities, and it's not any different than the south. The only difference I found, was that in the north they just don't make it known via being so blatant when talking. They do, however, harbor it and act on it institutionally and socially.

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When I was in the Lutheren Church I was taught that Jews were generally evil and Christ Killers. The holocaust happened but it was god's judgement on them so no need to shed any tears for them any more than for the first born Egyptians or the ones killed in the Flood..

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Racism, however, is more than just prejudice and discrimination combined. Racism is a socially constructed reality at the heart of society¹s structures. Racism is the deliberate structuring of privilege by means of an objective, differential and unequal treatment of people, for the purpose of social advantage over scarce resources, resulting in an ideology of supremacy which justifies power of position by placing a negative meaning on perceived or actual biological/cultural differences. (See here)

 

IMO the reason that the two seem interchangeable, on the surface anyway, is because of how people throw the term around in the media. Almost anytime a white person doesn't embrace an aspect of another culture or they say something wrong, they are deamed by the media as racist...well, with the definition given above not even someone like that can be called racist. Michael Richards was called a racist for his STUPID and CRUEL remarks yet a week later some bigtime black activist makes a comment on YOUTUBE calling for whites to be killed and not a single bit of outrage...how very, very typical and that is one hell of a double standard.

 

I can look around at other countires, non-white at that and see *racism* happening all over the place but usually here in the states, racist means *white* and that is totally a double standard.

 

As for the OP...how pathetic that the people in that church aren't jumping through hoops to help your cousin's family to adopt children that they truly want to help out, that is just so sad. Maybe this will be the beginning to the end of that kind of Christianity for them and hopefully a little nudge toward leaving the religion altogether.

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IMO the reason that the two seem interchangeable, on the surface anyway, is because of how people throw the term around in the media. Almost anytime a white person doesn't embrace an aspect of another culture or they say something wrong, they are deamed by the media as racist...well, with the definition given above not even someone like that can be called racist. Michael Richards was called a racist for his STUPID and CRUEL remarks yet a week later some bigtime black activist makes a comment on YOUTUBE calling for whites to be killed and not a single bit of outrage...how very, very typical and that is one hell of a double standard.

 

Everyone knows that guy(on YOUTUBE) hates white people. He never made it a secret. That would be the equivalent of being outraged at David Duke or a Neo Nazi who stands up on television spewing rhetoric. No one cares...

Seinfeld was loved and adored by millions, including some black people(Not me. I think that is the dumbest show I've ever seen...there I said it). Some of the black audience members went to the show to see Michael Richards. And low and behold he is a lunatic racist bigot...It got news because no one would have thought that crazy Kosmo Kramer was a Nazi.

 

Anyway, I am from Texas and the majority of Christians are racist. That is just a fact of life. Black and White bigots have found some common ground with their collective homophobia...But once Queers can marry it will be back to hating each other based on skin color, and using the Babble to dignify their ignorance.

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