Self Defence, Martial Arts And Christians

[Wertbag]

I tried to have a civilised conversation about self defence on a couple of mixed martial arts/UFC forums, but those forums seemed to be a magnet for stupid jock types and regardless of the discussion it always disintergrated into flame... thought I'd therefore have a rant on here since the general population of this forum are intelligent and can type in full english (rather than the "suX0rrz! haHa n00b!!11!" that seems to pass for teenage discussions elsewhere.

 

I was told by a Christian friend a very mixed up view on self defence. Jesus said turn the other cheek, therefore training in any fighting art is against his teachings. At the same time he was happy to say that if you fight and even kill someone threatening your family that is Biblicly fine and God won't be upset. Seemed pretty screwed up to me, but he failed to see the contradiction there...

I train in martial arts, more as a hobby than anything, but I really do like the knowledge that if I'm attacked I'll have a better than average chance of coming off okay. There are of course no gauranteed victories, even the best fighter can slip or fall giving his opponent the split second required to land a lucky punch, but at least with some training your chances are greatly improved.

Thankfully I've not been in a fight in the last decade, but I have been threatened on occasion and can think of a couple of recent events which I thought were going to end in violence. My question is has anyone been in a situation where you had to defend yourself from physical attack? Anyone ever used martial arts training to defend themselves in real life?

 

I have talked to two seperate kick boxers who were charged with excessive force when they defended themselves in bars (it seems alcohol is often the cause of violence), the Police said it was pretty much standard procedure to place the charge and leave it to the courts to sort out. Both were found innocent, but in both cases it was a close run thing.

Just a couple of weeks ago here in New Zealand a man tried to rob a gun shop armed with a machette. Obviously the guy behind the counter was armed and shot the robber. The stupid robber survived but is still in hospital at the moment, while the shop keeper was charged with excessive force, firing with intent to injure and GBH. His day in court has not been yet so I'm unsure how this will play out, I certainly hope he is found innocent.

 

I understand the excessive force rules are there to avoid revenge beatings, and still allow self defence, but it does seem to be quite a grey area. How much force is too much? The law does say it takes into account size, numbers, weapons, prior history etc, but each event is so varied that there is no obvious way to narrow down exactly what is legally acceptable. Of course in a self defence situation you get a ton of adrenaline and fight purely in the instant, stopping to consider your actions costs you time you can afford to waste.

[Lycorth]

It seems most reasonable to claim that any form of self-defense is anti-Xian, since Jebus plainly says to turn the other cheek. No where does he say anything to imply self-defense is ok, and also encourages his followers to be meek little lambs and "resist not evil" and to give everything to an attacker if they are mugged.

 

I've also heard the lame argument that Jebus never told any Roman soldiers he met to stop being soldiers, but that's very weak. We have instances where he is depicted encouraging pacifism and nowhere is anything contrary encouraged, so it seems clear that Jebus wanted submissive weaklings for followers.

 

I recall watching the 700 Club once as a Xian. Pat had an ex martial artist as a guest, who told of how he gave it all up because of the "turn the other cheek" command of Jebus. Even as a Xian, I could never follow that rule. It always made me sick.

 

Defending the self is fighting for the flesh and this world, and Xians are to only strive the spirit and the next world. If more Xians believed this submissive trash, most of us wouldn't be here. It's typical of the insane garbage that's so out-there even most Xians can't accept it.

 

Martial arts are an excellent form of exercise and tool for personal development, as well as effective for self-defense. Dropping Xianity and its insane demands is much the same.

[Amethyst]

I took karate classes as a Christian and never had anyone tell me anything like that. I have heard that how much force varies. For example, women get more lee way than men, but if you've got a black belt, then you're expected to know how much force to use and how much not to. If you're relatively new at martial arts, then you'd get more leeway than a black belt. This I got from one of my instructors.

 

I would personally say that if I felt my life was being threatened, then I would do whatever was necessary to defend myself.

[Lycorth]

As a Catholic, I took refuge in Catholic teaching, which taught self-defense in moderation was fine.

 

Problem is, Jebus says to not defend oneself. Then again, only the most rabid fundy would take him literally on that.

 

=

[Wertbag]

I'm sure finding a Bible quote to justify anything is possible. My friend was of the opinion that the OT made it alright to use self defence, while the NT said to turn the other cheek. He sent me a quote from Exodus, where God rabbits on about his commandments He says "If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist and he does not die but is confined to bed, the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed."

This has been taken to mean you can put someone in hospital as long as you don't destroy his livelihood.

And Exodus 22-2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed".

I don't know, seems OT God and NT God have got completely different ideas, and my mate is trying to sit on the fence and work with both sides of the contradiction...

[Blue elephant]

Most of the Christian objection I have heard to the martial arts is because of the meditation involved and the fact that many schools have their roots in Buddhism.

 

Where I live there is a Christian school of martial arts. There is a section in the website devoted to the topic of "Christian Martial Arts" . Please don't send the guy any offensive emails. He taught one of my kids in Year 5 and is actually a nice guy. Besides, I run into him at the local shops!!

 

Here is the link:

Lantern Martial Arts, Canberra

[Shawn]

I was told by a Christian friend a very mixed up view on self defence. Jesus said turn the other cheek, therefore training in any fighting art is against his teachings. At the same time he was happy to say that if you fight and even kill someone threatening your family that is Biblicly fine and God won't be upset. Seemed pretty screwed up to me, but he failed to see the contradiction there...

 

Thankfully I've not been in a fight in the last decade, but I have been threatened on occasion and can think of a couple of recent events which I thought were going to end in violence. My question is has anyone been in a situation where you had to defend yourself from physical attack? Anyone ever used martial arts training to defend themselves in real life?

 

I understand the excessive force rules are there to avoid revenge beatings, and still allow self defence, but it does seem to be quite a grey area. How much force is too much? The law does say it takes into account size, numbers, weapons, prior history etc, but each event is so varied that there is no obvious way to narrow down exactly what is legally acceptable. Of course in a self defence situation you get a ton of adrenaline and fight purely in the instant, stopping to consider your actions costs you time you can afford to waste.

 

Jebsus says to take an ass beating, or run away. He often ran away when the Jews wanted to stone him. Jesus didn't take one slap until his day on the cross.

 

I struggled with this like mad as a former Christian, along with other stuff. I'd never listen to him now, even if I was nuts enough to go back (I guess I'd be a heretic...Oh, forgive me Titus!). I have been in a few confrontations as a Christian, and I will say it's WAY better to beat than be beat. If someone starts something, finish it. And never hold back! NEVER! That court shit is absolute fucking crap. Go full force, and show no mercy, period. I actually plan on killing the person. Dead men tell no tales. My point is this: if someone is stupid enough to start violent shit, be prepared for the worst; death. "He had a knife/he grabbed my throat/I heard a click sound". End of police report! Know how to get out of legal hassles? Never be remorseful! Stick with what I said above. Be so fierce and self controlled, the cops and court just say, "Boy, what a scoundrel you fought off! Case dismissed". If you get a conscious, or get all weak stomached, forget it. They will assume it was 50/50, and you get part of the blame. Your 2 friends are examples of this. Of course, they were in a bar. Pro's and con's to that, depends how you play it.

 

I almost beat the shit out of a woman a few nights ago for stealing my laundry at my apartment complex. I told the cops that too! "I was going to kick the living shit out of her officer Smith! FUCK THAT BITCH!" Know what the officer said, "I SEE YOUR POINT MR. WEBER. HAVE A NICE EVENING, AND I AM SORRY THIS HAPPENED TO YOU". And the cop went searching for the damn thief to arrest her! LOL! The cop did not once chide me on my violent behavior, rather, I was REWARDED for it!

 

I train like a savage...1/2 the time my heart is so fierce, people cannot look at me directly. And I just sit there with a neutral, normal look. I don't mad dog anyone (stare at). I am ALWAYS ready to fuck some asshole up. I am always fully self-controlled. I've been through too much shit in 34 years to listen to goddamn prophet Jebsus or Dr. Phil. The advice of both who have never been in hand to hand combat I might add!

 

You will be in court for a violent confrontation either way. You can be the whiney victim, or the guy who fucked up a punk who took a swing at you. NEVER say you are a martial arts expert! EVER! The courts hear that and they imagine Jean Claude Van Damme doing flying spin kicks in a guy's *helpless* face. That's why Martial Artist who have belts get a hard treatment. I learned Tai Chi Chuan from an expert...think we hung out in a dojo listed on the yellow pages and I got a pretty certificate and a dozen belts? I never wanted that shit; I learned to break people, not sport fight. My 2+ years of training were private, and in a home. Personally, I would chuck the belt, but you are probably screwed already as a dojo is required to list it's black belts to the local court.

 

Anyway, my long 2 cents.

 

 

Shawn

[♦ nivek ♦]

"Self Defense is the ultimate Civil Right".

 

Everything after that is bullshit. The amount of the bullshit you want to eat after the action is over is handled by the jurisdiction or country you live in.

 

Prepare for the absolute worst, and hope like fuck it never happens.. Living in a perpetual stateof "Condition Orange" is not a bad thing.

 

kFL

[LosingMyReligion]

I never believed in it, even when I was a Christian. Granted, I'll never be one of those people who are ready to go under ground with a hundred tons of ammo in Montana...

But I will defend myself if my person is in danger. I hold a brown belt in TaeKwonDo. I got into it when I was 13 just because my favorite movie, at the time, was Enter The Dragon. But then I began to like what it did for me(confidence and self esteem). I'm still good at it and I would fight someone if I had to...I don't believe in Jainist and Christian philosophies of total non violence. Sometimes you have to fight back.

[neverclear5]

I see from some people's tags they have no problem with violence. I would say defending yourself is fine. But I fail to see the justification for shooting a guy who's trying to take your dvd player. How is that any different to being paid the $100 it cost to go shoot the guy in the street?

[Scarlett]

You know what I find funny is the Christians, like some of the ones in my family, who are totally opposed to martial arts because of the whole turn the other cheek yet they own guns. Why I asked why, I was told they were for hunting. I'm willing to bet though, if someone was to break in their house in the midnight of the night and threatened their kids, they would use a gun on the intruder.

 

Me, I always believe in being able to defend yourself by any means necessary.

[Shawn]

You know what I find funny is the Christians, like some of the ones in my family, who are totally opposed to martial arts because of the whole turn the other cheek yet they own guns. Why I asked why, I was told they were for hunting. I'm willing to bet though, if someone was to break in their house in the midnight of the night and threatened their kids, they would use a gun on the intruder.

 

Me, I always believe in being able to defend yourself by any means necessary.

 

That's so typical for the Jesusites! "I won't learn that evil asian fighting, but I'll own a 44 magnum with hollow point. HUNTING."

 

I bet they would take a baseball bat on the thief too!

 

 

Shawn

[Shawn]

I see from some people's tags they have no problem with violence. I would say defending yourself is fine. But I fail to see the justification for shooting a guy who's trying to take your dvd player. How is that any different to being paid the $100 it cost to go shoot the guy in the street?

 

My view is: come in my home, and you die. I don't care if you try to lift one red cent from my kitchen table. You entered my home. Get ready to be ejected from your flesh!

 

To me, I guess the guy's life was only worth $100. Just 100 years ago, it was legal to kill a horse thief. 300 years ago, it was legal to duel (with sword) to the death over a dispute. If we went back to this mentality, there would be so few issues, we could focus on real problems. No more gang bullshit! BLAM! How do you feel again, Tupac?

 

I have zero tolerance now for any shit thrown at me. I had a guy tonight here in town go out of his way to cut me off; he was driving his shit kicker pickup truck with his horse trailer. He actually forced me out of my lane. So I raced up, and cut him off HARD and flipped him off until I reached the stoplight. He stops behind me and is jumping around in his seat like a fucking mudskipper on a frying pan! LOL! I was GLAD! I wanted him to have enough balls to get out and walk up to my door, I was 'praying' for it. He put his head down like he was praying to Jebsus for forgivness after a minute. I saw that and I was like "Yeah, you better pray, you two-faced dick!" Fuck these assholes, as Travis Bickle would say!

 

That's my view.

 

 

Shawn

[Scarlett]

That's so typical for the Jesusites! "I won't learn that evil asian fighting, but I'll own a 44 magnum with hollow point. HUNTING."

 

I bet they would take a baseball bat on the thief too!

 

 

Shawn

 

 

I know, who hunts with a handgun anyways? I carry a .45, but I'd never say it was for hunting. What irks me the most is the utter hypocrisy these Christians have.

[Shawn]

That's so typical for the Jesusites! "I won't learn that evil asian fighting, but I'll own a 44 magnum with hollow point. HUNTING."

 

I bet they would take a baseball bat on the thief too!

 

 

Shawn

 

 

I know, who hunts with a handgun anyways? I carry a .45, but I'd never say it was for hunting. What irks me the most is the utter hypocrisy these Christians have.

 

Scarlett, is that your real picture (avatar)?

 

 

Shawn

[sanaslove]

My view is: come in my home, and you die. I don't care if you try to lift one red cent from my kitchen table. You entered my home. Get ready to be ejected from your flesh!

 

I am a pretty feeble person, but I would have agree with this. A few years ago my next door neighbors were murdered by an intruder. The wife and one daughter were stabbed to death and the father was stabbed in the neck and survived. The two other children happened to be at friends and were safe.

 

I wouldn't give anyone the chance to do that to my family. Once you step into someone else's home uninvited, all bets are off, in my opinion.

[♦ nivek ♦]

I hunt with handguns, both single shot and wheel guns.

 

Semi-autos are usually reserved for more important "social work" when a generous supply of ammo may make more goblins stay away than the wheel guns will so allow.

 

neverclear,

 

In the uS there is the "Castle Doctrine", simply stating that a man's home is his Castle and able to be defended.

Various States and jurisdictions make a wide variance on what constitutes "Use of Force".

 

I teach my students that in most situations the protection of Life is paramount. Everything else can be replaced to some certain degree.

 

The arguments can be made such as the "He was gonna steal my horse!" (read auto or truck in a hostile enviroment, you might die without its use), or "He threatened my life!".

 

If a person raises his hand/foot or personal protective device against the goblins, you indeed may find your person in Kort and being charged with offences against the State.

 

'Taint "fair" by any means, but when the bad guys make your life miserable, you need to respond with "just enough" force to stop the situation. Escalation is a hard call to make when the merest of fractions of seconds often constitute "force" from "lethal force".

 

kFL

NRA Certified Instructor

IDPA/IPSC/High Power Shooter/Full Auto Enthusiast

Busted feet and cracked back, various non-Occidental empty handed arts

[Kurari]

I would like to point out that Jesus lived in a very tough part of the world to live in. Look at the Middle East today. That's the continuance of thousands of years of history and hostility between tribes, not just the last ten, twenty, or fifty years. Wars were going on before Islam was even founded. The Bible's very clear about tribal war. That's a grand scale. On a personal scale, look at how many stupid little infractions there are in the Bible that are solved by violence. If somebody insults you verbally, you can attack them physically.

 

I think Jesus was saying in the turn the other cheek verse, "You people fight and lose your lives and limbs over the stupidest shit." He's basically saying to keep your priorities straight and try to stay out of confrontations.

 

Yes, I know that little verse is in contradiction to a lot of what the Bible says, but...it's the Bible. That was what my thought was about that particular verse.

 

As for real life, I had a rapist come into my room once. He was a family friend, stoned off his ass, and made some bad decisions. I woke up at 5am to see the silhouette of him standing in my doorway watching me sleep. At first I thought it was my brother because I couldn't see who it was, and demanded to know what he was doing there. He didn't attack me then. He said he had a long drive and needed to sleep on the couch a few hours (which happened occasionally with friends, so that wasn't unusual). It was then I realized who it was, and I got up and gave him a pillow and stuff in my bleary state of just woken up. I went back into my room and closed the door and realized that this guy already knew the drill...he didn't need me to get up and get him a pillow and blanket, he knew where they were. That raised all the little hairs on my body and it was my first red flag. Then long after he should have gone to bed, he was still moving around. I was recognizing he wasn't acting right. I got a foot long dagger I have kept in a stand on my dresser and took it to bed with me. If I didn't need it, dandy, if I did, it was under my pillow.

 

Sure enough, he came into my room completely stark naked and sat down on my bed uninvited. He wasn't attacking me, but he seemed to be struggling with himself and wasn't answering my questions or telling him to get out of my room. So I pulled the dagger out, got into position so I could move, and told him to leave. I have no fighting skills, don't know martial arts, but not fighting was not an option in my mind. I would have had no compunctions about driving a foot-long dagger into his neck if he did the wrong thing.

 

He left. He grabbed his clothes and left. I haven't seen him since.

 

That incident really disturbed me. Moreso than just being in that situation was realizing I would have no problems greviously injuring or killing somebody. I was grinning when I pulled the dagger out, and I think that's what scared HIM the most. Remembering that later after it was all done scared me too. I don't know why I was grinning. I wasn't thrilled about pulling a dagger on someone, especially someone I considered a friend up until that point. The minute the dagger came out, I stopped feeling afraid and was suddenly not feeling anything. It was just an eerie sort of blank calm in my head even though my heart was beating fast and I was tight with adrenaline. I've only felt that once before when I was helping out in an emergancy.

 

I think if I had had to act, a little part of me inside would have died later. It would bother me a lot for probably the rest of my life I had to hurt somebody like that, even in self defense. I couldn't walk into a store and threaten somebody's life or pull a gun on anyone if I was just angry at them. But life just isn't fair, and it's been another example in my life where it wasn't about morality, it was about reality. You don't get any good choices and you don't get any moral guides to help you in that moment. You just get to act and hopefully things will go in your favor.

[SilentLoner]

Damn...glad things turned out okay, Kurari.

 

I hadn't thought about this topic for a while. Back in the days of the catholic camp, I practiced karate. Yet I had a religion teacher who would tell us that fighting in any form was wrong and would condemn us. I really think that mindset damaged my attempts at sparring and eventually caused me to lose interest in the class.

 

Makes me sick to think I ever believed that kind of crap. I'm glad to report that I've long since regained my love of martial arts. (I currently practice Kendo and am in my college boxing club).

 

I wouldn't hesitate to fighting back if I were attacked. When I walk around campus at night I always carry a knife on me. I feel pretty safe on the campus, but I know how fast that can turn around.

[Poonis]

Case closed. Next thread.

 

[Amethyst]

Kurari, you totally did the right thing. I say if someone wants to rape you, or anyone else for that matter, kick their ass.

[Naughtyhamster]

What I don't get are Christians who are so against the martial arts as it's "Pagan and violent" but are ardent supporters of gun rights! Sheesh! If you look at the Asian countries where self defense by martial arts is used they condemn guns and have lesser crime. From what I heard martial arts students are taught not to use self defense unless they or someone else is in danger of being killed and that it is inappropriate to start a fight. On the other hand with guns people just blow each others' heads off over such stupid shit such as territory or religious differences. Might as well when I have kids take them on down to the karate dojo rather than have them fooling around with an AK47 or assault rifle for a self defense weapon.