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Was The Devil Lucifer?


sparkyone
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This is a topic that seems so important even though only one reference I can think of refers to Lucifer. It's actually talking about the king of Babylon in a metaphorical way. I once told my kids that it doesn't actually mean Lucifer was the devil before he fell from heaven and one of them brought it up at church school. He was promptly corrected with the "proper" meaning. I mean, is this just yet another of the many examples of multiple interpretations in the Bible? It doesn't seem like a big deal to me either way, but people are so quick to defend their belief in their interpretation of it.

Also, has anyone heard something about how a Christian can somehow trick Satan into helping us? I heard that in a sermon and it just seemed so wierd. I'm not sure what the context was. Maybe it was when Jehoshaphat led the Israelites against Moab, Ammon and Mount Seir in 2 Chron. 20. I just don't see how he got that from this passage.

Just wondering...

 

Sparkyone

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That sounds exceptionally bizarre. Lucifer was a Roman god whom the Xians associated with Satan, and I've never heard of any Xian idea that one can trick the devil into helping oneself.

 

Then again, Xians say the darndest things...

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This is a topic that seems so important even though only one reference I can think of refers to Lucifer. ....

Lucifer means "bringer of light." Venus, since it often appears on the horizon just before the Sun rises, is called "The Morning Star," or "bringer of light." In the last few paragraphs of the bible jesus calls himself; "the bright and morning star." Thus; jesus is Lucifer. :wicked:

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My question is...At what period in time did that snake(in the garden)become Satan?

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This is a topic that seems so important even though only one reference I can think of refers to Lucifer. It's actually talking about the king of Babylon in a metaphorical way. I once told my kids that it doesn't actually mean Lucifer was the devil before he fell from heaven and one of them brought it up at church school. He was promptly corrected with the "proper" meaning. I mean, is this just yet another of the many examples of multiple interpretations in the Bible? It doesn't seem like a big deal to me either way, but people are so quick to defend their belief in their interpretation of it.

 

Different churches have different takes on this. At super-fundy church as a child, I remember being taught that the verse on Lucifer did not refer to the devil, but to the King of Babylon as Sparkyone says. They believed that Satan did not fall, but was created that way. I think they based it on some verse that said the devil was a liar from the beginning, so took this to mean he was never a "good angel" to begin with. Of course, at such a young age I never thought to question why a good God would create an evil being. Many people have problems with such a concept, which is why (I suppose) that they came up with the idea that Satan rebelled and fell from heaven.

 

Also, has anyone heard something about how a Christian can somehow trick Satan into helping us? I heard that in a sermon and it just seemed so wierd. I'm not sure what the context was. Maybe it was when Jehoshaphat led the Israelites against Moab, Ammon and Mount Seir in 2 Chron. 20. I just don't see how he got that from this passage.

Just wondering...

 

Don't think I've heard of that one but I'm not suprised, given the amount of odd teachings that have come out of the church over the centuries. Will have to look into this one.

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Lucifer means "bringer of light." Venus, since it often appears on the horizon just before the Sun rises, is called "The Morning Star," or "bringer of light." In the last few paragraphs of the bible jesus calls himself; "the bright and morning star." Thus; jesus is Lucifer. :wicked:

 

:HaHa:

 

Or he's a tranny, since he's identifying with both a male and a female deity here.

 

Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it would be nice if he were just honest about it.

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My question is...At what period in time did that snake(in the garden)become Satan?

 

Satan was there before man, so I guess nobody really knows

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Satan was there before man, so I guess nobody really knows

 

Where is your proof Satan was there before men? Or that Satan exists?

 

To be strict with the reading of Genesis, the serpent is not called "Satan" nor is it implied that the serpent is Satan. This connection is only drawn later. The Garden of Eden myth reads more like a folktale which tries to explain the presence of evil in the world and why snakes don't have legs.

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Where is your proof Satan was there before men? Or that Satan exists?

 

To be strict with the reading of Genesis, the serpent is not called "Satan" nor is it implied that the serpent is Satan. This connection is only drawn later. The Garden of Eden myth reads more like a folktale which tries to explain the presence of evil in the world and why snakes don't have legs.

 

From the book of Ezekiel:

 

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

 

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz and emerald,

chrysolite, onyx and jasper,

sapphire, turquoise and beryl. [c]

Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

 

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

 

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

 

16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

 

17 Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

 

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

 

19 All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.' "

 

You think I just made that up or something?

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You think I just made that up or something?

yes, because nothing you quoted there said anything about a snake, satan, or when they came into being.

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You think I just made that up or something?

yes, because nothing you quoted there said anything about a snake, satan, or when they came into being.

 

You do understand that the bible does not go right out and say things in layman's terms always, but if you actually read the words... It's talking about Satan. I do not need to explain myself, you are just being stubborn.

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Where is your proof Satan was there before men? Or that Satan exists?

 

To be strict with the reading of Genesis, the serpent is not called "Satan" nor is it implied that the serpent is Satan. This connection is only drawn later. The Garden of Eden myth reads more like a folktale which tries to explain the presence of evil in the world and why snakes don't have legs.

 

From the book of Ezekiel:

 

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

 

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz and emerald,

chrysolite, onyx and jasper,

sapphire, turquoise and beryl. [c]

Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

 

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

 

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

 

16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

 

17 Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

 

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

 

19 All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.' "

 

You think I just made that up or something?

 

 

Um...you are aware that there was STILL a place called "Eden" when this lament was made, right? Christians are very quick to point to the mention of Eden to suggest that Lucifer/Satan/the devil was present in the Garden of Eden with the Adam fella and the bimbette Eve. You might want to read on down to verse 24 to notice that the location of Tyre was contemporary to the king of Tyre to whom the above lament was made. Eden, at that time, was one of a location where he had business dealings with.

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Um...you are aware that there was STILL a place called "Eden" when this lament was made, right? Christians are very quick to point to the mention of Eden to suggest that Lucifer/Satan/the devil was present in the Garden of Eden with the Adam fella and the bimbette Eve. You might want to read on down to verse 24 to notice that the location of Tyre was contemporary to the king of Tyre to whom the above lament was made. Eden, at that time, was one of a location where he had business dealings with.

 

You're completely right Tyson, this passage does have two meanings. The King of Tyre represents the Anti-Christ, and just as Christ was the incarnation of God, the King of Tyre was the incarnation of Satan. I can try to clarify further if need be.

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You think I just made that up or something?

yes, because nothing you quoted there said anything about a snake, satan, or when they came into being.

You do understand that the bible does not go right out and say things in layman's terms always, but if you actually read the words... It's talking about Satan. I do not need to explain myself, you are just being stubborn.

Oh, sorry, I forgot; you're supposed to read into the bible whatever you want it to say. It's that way because if you actually read the bible, it makes no sense what so ever. Also, by making the bible say what you want, it's never wrong. I do understand.

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You think I just made that up or something?

 

Someone did, that's for sure. You're just repeating it.

 

That's not proof, those are just words in a book - a book that lacks historical credibility.

 

Perhaps I should clarify; I was asking for real-world evidence, empirical and observable, that Satan existed before humans did, or that Satan exists at all. The archaelogical record, for one, is silent on this, and doesn't suggest that anything nearly as complex as Satan must be ever existed before the development of human life on earth, nor are there any traces to be found of his existence.

 

Much like Jebus.

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No. he's got it 100% right. This is totally about Satan. :Duivel7:

 

From the book of Ezekiel:

 

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

 

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz and emerald,

chrysolite, onyx and jasper,

sapphire, turquoise and beryl. [c]

Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

 

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

 

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

See? Satan was in Eden, not the garden, as a guardian cherub and not as the role of accuser which is what he is in the Jewish tradition. He also walked on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Then he somehow became evil. Oh, and then there was a war in heaven and was cast down to earth which happened in Revelations too somehow.

 

16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

 

17 Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

 

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

 

19 All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.' "

Here it is in these verses. See? Satan apparently does a lot of commerce in his trades and that makes him evil. So then he gets cast down to earth from the Temple Mount. Too bad for him. He is also made a spectacle before all the kings when this happened. Hmmm...king Adam? Maybe the animals had kings then? We know the legged snakes could talk so anything is possible.

 

He also had sanctuaries and was reduced to ashes by fire. So Satan is now ashes. Yay! This is a good thing since this happened a long time ago. The last verse, being in the past tense, shows this has already happened. Even for a dual prophecy this is the only way to interpret it. Hurray for us!

 

Thanks for pointing this out. If you hadn't I'd be ever so worried that Satan was wondering around trying to get me but this shows that he's been burned to ashes because he was an evil trader.

 

mwc

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Romans Chapter 1:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

As for all your comments, I was simply replying to LosingMyReligion. He asked a biblical question, I answered with biblical sources.

 

I will no longer continue my explanation on this topic, we seem to be stuck at ends.

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I will no longer continue my explanation on this topic, we seem to be stuck at ends.

 

The only one stuck here is you and your prejudiced religion of hatred.

 

Pull your head out of Jebus' ass, maybe then you'll see how evil your religion really is.

 

:jesus: = :fdevil:

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Also, has anyone heard something about how a Christian can somehow trick Satan into helping us? I heard that in a sermon and it just seemed so wierd. I'm not sure what the context was. Maybe it was when Jehoshaphat led the Israelites against Moab, Ammon and Mount Seir in 2 Chron. 20. I just don't see how he got that from this passage.

Just wondering...

 

Sparkyone

 

I know a great deal of fairytales and legends where people who ended up tricking Satan into helping them, but I've never heard of a church putting out "101 Ways to Make the Devil Work for You!"

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Romans Chapter 1:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

As for all your comments, I was simply replying to LosingMyReligion. He asked a biblical question, I answered with biblical sources.

 

I will no longer continue my explanation on this topic, we seem to be stuck at ends.

I see. I point out how silly your "interpretation" of the verses are and we get "stuck." Accept the absolute FACT that what you said made no sense in CONTEXT. If you're going to read Satan into those verses at least get some Jewish sources to back your inane argument as it is their texts you're trying to rape after all.

 

As for unleashing the power of mighty Paul against me. Oh my. Watch me tremble. :jerkoff: (Close enough.) I doubt very much that you're getting divine revelation...and since you're not...that passage from wacky old Paul means jack shit nothing. So leave your veiled insults at the door. Unless you have the ability to put up you'll need to shut up.

 

mwc

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As for unleashing the power of mighty Paul against me. Oh my. Watch me tremble. :jerkoff: (Close enough.) I doubt very much that you're getting divine revelation...and since you're not...that passage from wacky old Paul means jack shit nothing. So leave your veiled insults at the door. Unless you have the ability to put up you'll need to shut up.

 

mwc

 

 

The word of God is always there, my quoting is nothing but an allusion; to remind you of how stubborn strayed men are. I was using the quote not to put fear in you, but so that you may know that God can be seen in EVERYthing, you just close your mind to Him. As for insults, the only insults I see are coming from you all.

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I ahd a thought about Satan today, whilde driving to work:

 

Whenever Xians get tempted, or something bad happens, they say that is was Satan wot dun it.

But these bad things happen all the time. All over the world.

 

And so it struck me, Satan must be Omnipresent. Like God. He MUST be, to do all these bad things to people all over the world all the time.

 

And also, in order to make his plans and plots he must be Omniscient, in order to forsee the situations. I'm thinking of the example given in "The God Who Wasn't There". All the "christ types" taht were crucified and rose again, BEFORE Jesus are ascribed to the devil, knowing that jesus was coming, and counterfeiting his life to sow confusion.

The devil knows the future.

 

So we've got Omnipresence and Omniscience. All we need ins Omnipotence and that puts Satan right up there in the pantheon with god and makes Christians pantheists not monotheists.

 

Well, when Jesus was tempted by Satan Matthew 4:8 - 10

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

Notice Jesus DIDN't say "don't be an idiot Satan, you don't have the power to do that!!!

 

So Satan - Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. That gives the Xians at leats 2 gods, and possibly 4.

What a messed up religion!

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The word of God is always there, my quoting is nothing but an allusion; to remind you of how stubborn strayed men are. I was using the quote not to put fear in you, but so that you may know that God can be seen in EVERYthing, you just close your mind to Him. As for insults, the only insults I see are coming from you all.

You probably don't even see how specious this reasoning is, do you?

 

The same can be said to you from, say, Islam. I could quote from the doctrine and then when you reject it I could tell you how you stubbornly close your mind to Allah. If not Islam then Scientology. If not that then something else and on and on it goes.

 

If you don't accept what I'm pushing at you then you're close minded. Of course, if you accept it, then you're open minded. The rational doesn't make sense once I start to use it for anything and everything though, does it? Of course not. The color green is really purple. If you don't accept that then you're close minded as open minded people can see that colors are really arbitrary (they really are but without agreed upon labels it would get chaotic).

 

So just because I deny what you selling doesn't allow you to immediately denounce me as "close minded." You didn't prove what you said. You laid it out there, a naked assertion, and expected me to buy into your doctrine. I didn't. If I wished to read Satan into ever little tiny aspect of the bible that even touched on the concept of pride I'd be reading that character in many places. Sadly that would be an injustice to the text and I won't be doing that anytime soon. As I said, you are the one that made the assertion. You are the one that has to now back up that assertion and prove that this is what that text is talking about. I said the Jews, who happened to write that text, sure don't see Satan there so why is it that I should take your word over theirs? Because I'll be "close minded" if I don't? Because you will think less of me? So what. So prove to me that your interpretation of their text is more accurate then their interpretation of their text or show me where the two of you agree. That's all I'm asking. Not to be called "closed minded."

 

mwc

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