My Conversation With J.p. Holding

[Brother Jeff]

I wasn't really sure where to stick this, but I thought it might go well here. I have been carrying on a very interesting conversation with J.P. Holding of www.tektonics.org this morning. I have been playing the role of a Christian recently reconverted to the Lord, and he has been his usual jackass, unChristlike self. Here is our conversation thus far, starting with my email to him about trading links:

 

Me:

Hello, I would like to introduce you to my new Christian apologetics website, which is located at http://www.apologeticsforjesus.com. I have been a Christian for 22 years now, and I am passionate about sharing my faith in the Lord Jesus with others! If you like my site, I would love to trade links with you. Please be sure to also check out my blog at http://www.apologeticsforjesus.com/blog. Thanks and God bless,Brother Jeff

Brother Holding:

You wrote me once before, you moron.

 

Me:

Yes, I did, but I'm writing you about a different site now, in case you didn't notice. Take the time to check out the site and the blog. As should be obvious, I am a Christian now, and had I not backslid for a while, I could honestly count 22 years of solid service to the Lord, since I got saved back in 1985. I rebuke you for your behavior in the Name of the Lord! I don't approve of your unChristlike behavior toward others or your approach with your site particularly since it doesn't reflect well on the Lord at all, but I have given you the courtesy of linking to your site, and I would appreciate the courtesy of a link returned. I suggest that you read your Bible and pay close attention to how our Lord Jesus treated others. I think you will find that He treated them with dignity, kindness, goodness, and respect, rather than with a tongue ready with insults. Do you care about the Word of God and do you care about being a good example for Christ? If so, it certainly doesn't show in your behavior. I could quote the Word to you about how we are supposed to behave as Christians, but if I did would I be wasting my time? Right now, I think so. It's time for some serious "carpet time" before the Lord. You need to spend some time in prayer getting to know the character of our Lord much better than you apparently do at the moment, and you need to seriously re-evaluate your behavior. We are called to be Ambassadors for Christ to a lost world. That means that we are to share the Gospel with the world and the reasons for the hope that is within us with meekness and with fear (1 Peter 3:15), not with insults and arrogance. I'll be praying for you and praying the Word over you that the Lord will show Himself to you in a mighty and a holy way, and that your behavior in the future will reflect a new and fresh revelation of HIM. Our God is Love Personified in Christ. Let's show Him to this lost world together, shall we? In Christ,Brother Jeff

 

Brother Holding:

Sure, sonny boy. Look, I've had my fill with pathological liars this weekend, thanks to a family crisis, so you can just take both sites (funny how the other one is still up after your [re-]"conversion") and apply one to each cheek, and sit on them. Whatever sick game is on your mind it's too stupid to work, and you're too stupid to pull it off.

 

Me:

Sorry to hear about your family crisis, and sorry to hear that you apparently have no intentions of changing your behavior to reflect that of the Lord. Just remember that one day you will stand before Him, and you will have to be accountable for your behavior before HIM. You might want to give that fact some very serious thought. But then the Lord did give us the parable of the wheat and the tares. Right now, I consider you to be a tare - a false Christian - as clearly evidenced by your behavior and your lack of concern over it. No, I haven't taken my other site offline yet. I simply haven't gotten around to it, and it hadn't seemed that important really since the traffic to that site is extremely low. But I will do it right now. I will also be removing my link to your site for right now. I have a policy of not linking to "Christian" sites like yours that reflect poorly upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but I thought I would at least give you a chance to reconsider your stance and your behavior. Keep in mind that "Christians" who behave as you do are a significant reason why some choose not to become or to remain Christians, and I can't honestly say that I blame them at all. Your behavior is generally inexcusable and it is definitely unacceptable. You, sir, are a genuinely lousy example of what a Christian should be and of how a Christian should behave. I again rebuke you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ! Write me back when (and if) your site and your behavior reflects that our Lord, and I will reconsider linking to you again. You shall be in my prayers. In Christ,Brother Jeff

 

Brother Holding:

Yeah, sure, sonny. We'll see you when you start your Hare Krishna for Jesus site next week and whatever other sites your multiple personality disorder comes up with.

 

Me:

I'm sorry that you don't think I am serious about my relationship with the Lord, but the fact remains that I am. I have taken my old site offline (thanks for the reminder about it), and I have removed my link to your site. I find "Christians" like you to be a very disturbing reality, and to be a disgrace to the Lord. You, by your behavior, are hindering the spread of the Gospel rather than encouraging it. You drive people away from the Lord rather than bringing people to Him, and that, my friend, is very, very sad. You can consider yourself rebuked once again in the Name of Lord, but it is clear that you don't honestly care about HIM or His Kingdom or about bringing people into it with love and grace. I think you only care about making a name for yourself as a supposed apologist, and you only care about using the Gospel as a means of financial gain. God said that some dishonest people would do that, and sure enough He was right. You and people like you honestly disgust me. You bring shame and dishonor upon the Name of the Lord and upon His Gospel, and you cause His Name to be blasphemed among unbelievers. Shame on you. Whether you choose to believe it or not, you shall be in my prayers. In Christ,Brother Jeff

Brother Holding:

Too bad you forgot to remove stuff on your myspace page like comments from your atheist friends and also that stupid picture of you showing your "sincerity" in your faith. Face it....you're too stupid to pull off this flim flam.

 

Me:

I have friends who hold all sorts of different beliefs (don't you?), and all are welcome to comment on either my site or my MySpace page (http://www.myspace.com/apologeticsforjesus), as they see fit. I understand that they are lost, and I pray that all of them will come to know the Lord eventually - before it's too late - and I am doing my best to be a good example to them for Christ. I am known online for my humor, and that hasn't changed since I gave my life back to the Lord. My humor just takes a different direction now. I want to use it, as I do all of my talents, to glorify God. I think that picture is hilarious, personally, so I don't apologize for it. The Jesus I know as my Lord and Savior has an excellent sense of humor, and I think He appreciates mine. I hope I give Him a good laugh at least every once in a while. Your insults directed at me do nothing but convince me that you are indeed a tare - a false Christian, and that you need to spend some serious time with the Lord learning about HIS character. You may even still need to be genuinely saved, but I can't judge that. Only God knows if you are really His or not. I strongly suggest to you that you test yourself to see if you really are in the faith (2 Cor. 13:5). Your behavior certainly doesn't show it. In Christ,Brother Jeff

Brother Holding:

A pathological liar is always caught in his own lies inasmuch as they are revealed by the contrived absurdity of their explanations. Your friends must be pretty stupid, then, seeing as how, for example, "Jesus Hallucination Christ" blesses your alleged Christian belief while "Insane Destiny" echoes your praise to the Lord. And I suppose the picture is of you speaking in tongues. I would think real atheist friends would be doing their best to persuade you to abandon your faith. Maybe they know something you hope others don't. Maybe it is time I hit the "report abuse" button.

 

Me:

My atheist friends, of course, think that my faith in the Lord is foolish and they mock me, and of course they have tried to talk me out of my belief in Him. They have failed, and they will continue to fail. My trust is in the Lord, and it will remain there. As I said before, I am doing my best to be a good example to them for Christ. That picture was taken while I was just having fun entertaining myself by making faces on my webcam. I think it is one of the more hilarious pictures that I took, and again, I don't apologize for it. If you want to report me for abuse, go right ahead. I'll be happy to explain the entire situation to Yahoo, and you can bet that they will see things my way after I do. I really wish that I had a "report abuse" button that I could use to report you directly to the Lord with, but then I don't really need one. He already knows all about you and your disgusting, unChristlike behavior, and He also knows all about my attempts in His Name to get you to reconsider how you choose to treat others. You are a disgrace to God and a disgrace to all true Christians who call upon the Name of the Lord for salvation and who treat others with grace and respect in His Name. You bring reproach upon the Name of the Lord, and you should be ashamed of yourself. In Christ,Brother Jeff

Brother Holding:

>>>>My atheist friends, of course, think that my faith in the Lord is foolish and they mock me, and of course they have tried to talk me out of my belief in Him. Oh, sure they do. And a purple cow is holding up your website on its back as it floats in a sea of Strawberry Yoo Hoo. Funny how their mockeries contain no sentiments such as, "Jeff, you know this stuff is nonsense." Of course they probably only sent you those sort of things by personal email, snail mail, passenger pigeon, etc. >>>As I said before, I am doing my best to be a good example to them for Christ. Oh yes, just fine. I see your gentle reproaches to them for their mockery. Good work. <<<That picture was taken while I was just having fun entertaining myself by making faces on my webcam. I think it is one of the more hilarious pictures that I took, and again, I don't apologize for it. Hey, here's an idea. Why not do one of you mooning the camera, and trying that excuse? Oh, and don't forget these gems: http://cfi-forums.org/viewtopic.php?t=1586...0b12e9d3570a172 Hmm, just look at that sig line: Setting fundies free at http://www.religionisbullshit.org And where you say: Yes, it's a spoof. The site is intended to look Christian at first glance, but then the deeper you get into it, the more obvious it should become that it is actually an Atheist site.

 

I am really enjoying my role on the site as a (sometimes raving lunatic) fundie. Glory! LOL Wow. And it took me only .01 seconds to see through you. Poor sap. You need to try harder. How stupid guy. Be more stupider.

Me:

And you need to try harder to be a good example for the Lord. I did actually start the site as another spoof site, but that's not how it has ended up. I gave my life back to the Lord recently as a result of trying to mock Him and His Word! God got through to me, as I know He has many others, even while I was busy denying Him and hating Him. Isn't His Love and His Mercy an awesome thing to behold? Yes, I did a skeptical site for a few years, and it's still online at this moment, but it is officially abandoned. I don't care about it anymore, but because of emotional attachment to it I have been reluctant to take it offline. That's silly and stupid and not really right and I know it, but change takes time, as you probably know. I will eventually take my old skeptical site offline. It just doesn't seem like a major priority right now, because like the other one was, it is a low traffic site. I had it online for two years, but it never achieved much success, and now I praise God that it didn't! I am a true Christian now rather than a pretender and a mocker, and I will serve the Lord with all of my heart, whether you believe it or not. Your opinion of me and my ministry doesn't really matter anyway. As is obvious to me, you are not a true Christian anyway, as your behavior makes clear. God's opinion does matter, and it is HIS opinion that I care about. My heart is clean before Him and my site exists to glorify Him and to win others to Him, and that's all that really matters to me in the end. In Christ,Brother Jeff

Brother Holding:

http://www.tektonics.org/newstuff.html

 

But now everyone will know. Sorry, Jeffy. That's what you get for crossing JPH.

Me:

I'm not worried at all about your post, as I am genuinely serving the Lord now, and I know that HE will honor my efforts even if you don't. Hopefully, you will come to realize that at some point in time, and if your behavior improves (markedly), maybe we can then join forces as brothers in the Lord with a common goal. Right now, I have no desire to be associated with you or with other unChristlike supposed "Christians". I didn't forget that I wrote to you about my other site. I wanted to share my new genuinely Christian site with you, and I had hoped that you would rejoice with me in my restored faith and give me a link as well. But obviously, that's not how it has turned out, is it? I will continue to serve the Lord with my site, and I will continue to pray for you and those like you who bring reproach upon the Name of Our Lord. In Christ,Brother Jeff

Brother Holding:

Recently? Pfft. Yeah. Your last post on CFI was, um, this past Friday at noon. How convenient that you had a site already started as a spoof when you found the Lord again, when? Saturday at 3 PM? Sunday at 2? This morning when you got up? Liar, liar....pants on fire. Stupid little man.

Me:

Yes, recently. As in not long at all after I made that post at CFI. The Lord got through to me, whether you believe it or not. I wish that I could count you as a brother in the Lord, but at this point in time I certainly don't. You are a tare - a false Christian - and your behavior does nothing but prove it. You and people like you are a major problem within the the Body of Christ, and I just may do my own post on my blog exposing you and your ministry for the false and dishonoring thing that it is. I trust that most people who visit your site are turned off as I am by your behavior and your insults towards others, anyway. I'll be sure to send you link if I do blog about you and your site. It won't be for a while though. I don't post to my blog when I am angry, and right now I am. People like you who are such poor examples of what the Lord has called us to be really get under my skin. Nuff said. In Christ,Brother Jeff

 

Brother Holding:

Wow. You don't have a life at all, do you?

 

Me:

Of course I have a life, and now it is dedicated to serving the Lord Jesus Christ. I really honestly don't care if you believe that or not. My concern now is with serving God and bringing others to Christ, and it is my sincere and honest prayer that the Lord will use my site for His glory. I would rather have you as a brother in the Lord and as a friend rather than an enemy, but I leave that entirely up to you. You know that your behavior doesn't please the Lord and is not in keeping with His Word, and you know that it needs to change. If it does, then I would be pleased to count you as a friend and a fellow worker in the Lord. In Christ,Brother Jeff

 

I haven't heard back yet from Brother Holding, but if I do I will post his response(s) here. I have very much enjoyed playing the role of the fundie with him. He is such a jackass! LOL

 

[Ouroboros]

Brother Holding:

Sure, sonny boy. Look, I've had my fill with pathological liars this weekend, thanks to a family crisis,

I wonder if he referred to his Christian/Religious relatives as pathological liars? Maybe he's starting to see the truth?

[Taphophilia]

He sure has a chip on his shoulder, doesn't he? "Liar, Liar pants on fire"? My kids haven't said that since they were three. Thoughout the entire discussion he has the maturity of a three year old. He could have disagreed with you in a diplomatic manner, however, like always he chooses the low road.

[RedPillAddict]

for example, "Jesus Hallucination Christ" blesses your alleged Christian belief

 

 

Hey...thats me!

I was wondering whether I should have commented on your page or not, lol. oh well.

[StewartP]

Bro' Jeff -

 

Now, you know I'm a fan of yours, and I visit your sites regularly. But in my opinion Holding saw you coming and stuck to his guns. I don't see much how could have behaved otherwise. Sure he gets a bit petulent but he's being harrased by an obvious scammer. I think he did OK

 

On the other hand he has provided some excellent fodder for future ideas - "We'll see you when you start your Hare Krishna for Jesus"

[currentchristian]

Bro' Jeff -

 

Now, you know I'm a fan of yours, and I visit your sites regularly. But in my opinion Holding saw you coming and stuck to his guns. I don't see much how could have behaved otherwise. Sure he gets a bit petulent but he's being harrased by an obvious scammer. I think he did OK

 

On the other hand he has provided some excellent fodder for future ideas - "We'll see you when you start your Hare Krishna for Jesus"

 

I see no need to intentionally harass others. Isn't it better to present one's views, argue respectfully for one's "truth," vigorously defend one's outlook, and then allow everyone else to do the same?

 

-CC in MA

[Brother Jeff]

Bro' Jeff -

 

Now, you know I'm a fan of yours, and I visit your sites regularly. But in my opinion Holding saw you coming and stuck to his guns. I don't see much how could have behaved otherwise. Sure he gets a bit petulent but he's being harrased by an obvious scammer. I think he did OK

 

On the other hand he has provided some excellent fodder for future ideas - "We'll see you when you start your Hare Krishna for Jesus"

 

Yes, Holding saw me coming, but based on his reputation for being a complete (jack)ass and for being very immature - as Taph pointed out - I fully expected him to behave as he did. Have you ever visited his www.tektonics.org site? His site clearly reflects his immaturity and his attitude problems and his rather glaring character flaws as well. If you read his site, you will see that his "apologetics" consist primarily of insulting rants against non-Christians and their viewpoints. Look at the way he titles his featured articles on the front page of the site. He regularly insults and belittles non-Christians, and he evidently thinks that treating people in such a manner is the Christian thing to do and a good way to win folks to Christ. If you read his blog - even his entry about me - you'll see not only his immaturity clearly displayed again, but you should notice the size of the man's ego as well. And yet, for some inexplicable reason, this man has fans who love his site. If I was a Christian, I would find it to be absolutely disgraceful. I find Holding to be an unfortunately typical Christian. He is ignorant, arrogant, obnoxious, judgmental, etc. I think I did an excellent job of impersonating a fundie, even though I couldn't convince Holding that I had become one. Holding was unfortunately just being his usual, thoroughly unpleasant self.

[currentchristian]

Bro' Jeff -

 

Now, you know I'm a fan of yours, and I visit your sites regularly. But in my opinion Holding saw you coming and stuck to his guns. I don't see much how could have behaved otherwise. Sure he gets a bit petulent but he's being harrased by an obvious scammer. I think he did OK

 

On the other hand he has provided some excellent fodder for future ideas - "We'll see you when you start your Hare Krishna for Jesus"

 

Yes, Holding saw me coming, but based on his reputation for being a complete (jack)ass and for being very immature - as Taph pointed out - I fully expected him to behave as he did. Have you ever visited his www.tektonics.org site? His site clearly reflects his immaturity and his attitude problems and his rather glaring character flaws as well. If you read his site, you will see that his "apologetics" consist primarily of insulting rants against non-Christians and their viewpoints. Look at the way he titles his featured articles on the front page of the site. He regularly insults and belittles non-Christians, and he evidently thinks that treating people in such a manner is the Christian thing to do and a good way to win folks to Christ. If you read his blog - even his entry about me - you'll see not only his immaturity clearly displayed again, but you should notice the size of the man's ego as well. And yet, for some inexplicable reason, this man has fans who love his site. If I was a Christian, I would find it to be absolutely disgraceful. I find Holding to be an unfortunately typical Christian. He is ignorant, arrogant, obnoxious, judgmental, etc. I think I did an excellent job of impersonating a fundie, even though I couldn't convince Holding that I had become one. Holding was unfortunately just being his usual, thoroughly unpleasant self.

 

I'll have to visit his site and check things out. But the evidence seems clear that we all can be immature. We all cop attitudes, go on insulting rants, show our ignorance, our arrogance and our judgmentalism -- from time to time. These are shared traits of our humanity. We all need to work on being more pleasant, more kind, and more tolerant of views not our own. The character of a person is revealed when s/he encounters the "other" in others. Then we see what we're made of.

 

-CC in MA

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I havn't checked out his site, but certainly you are being the immature one in this situation.

[StewartP]

I had a look at his site, Bro' Jeff.

 

Any idea what the hell "Tektonics" actually is? I couldn't find it defined anywhere

 

regards

 

Stew

[Brother Jeff]

I havn't checked out his site, but certainly you are being the immature one in this situation.

 

Pfft. Hardly. But you are certainly welcome to your opinion.

[Brother Jeff]

I had a look at his site, Bro' Jeff.

 

Any idea what the hell "Tektonics" actually is? I couldn't find it defined anywhere

 

regards

 

Stew

 

I think it has something to do with "building blocks", but I wouldn't swear to it.

[Guest Geese Aplenty]

Bro' Jeff -

 

Now, you know I'm a fan of yours, and I visit your sites regularly. But in my opinion Holding saw you coming and stuck to his guns. I don't see much how could have behaved otherwise. Sure he gets a bit petulent but he's being harrased by an obvious scammer. I think he did OK

 

On the other hand he has provided some excellent fodder for future ideas - "We'll see you when you start your Hare Krishna for Jesus"

 

I completely agree with you here. Yes, Turkel is seriously delusional, but he was savvy enough (despite his family crisis) to see this scheme coming a mile away. Remember, he is human, too, and we were once like him--sometimes just as arrogant. I don't blame him a bit for calling you out on this one.

 

Funny, I was just feeling like harrassing this douchebag about a YEC matter recently, but now I've changed my mind seeing what he has to put up with.