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Goodbye Jesus

Discussions About Abortion


Asimov

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So, I decided to start a discussion at a Christian forum entitled "Why is Abortion Wrong?"

 

A valid question regarding ethics.

 

I noticed a great many things about the opposing side of this debate, but I'll name the three major ones:

 

1) They use emotional appeal like "they slaughter millions of babies a year!" and "It's wrong because I KNOW it's wrong". Or "look at these pictures and tell me it's not wrong".

 

2) They use character assassination tactics like "I can't believe you hate unborn babies that much" and "you're disgusting" and "oh he's Canadian, the liberal and socialist agenda is huge there" (even though I"m not a Liberal nor am I a Socialist). Discrediting ones opponent instead of refuting or answering a question is a big tactic in anti-abortion discussions.

 

3) They repeat their opinions ad nauseum:

 

"IT'S WRONG!"

"Why is it wrong?"

"Because it's murder!!"

"Murder is defined as the wrongful killing of another human being, I know you think it's wrong, but why?"

"Why do you hate unborn children?!"

 

I contend that anti-abortion people have no valid reasoning as to why abortion is wrong.

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I contend that anti-abortion people have no valid reasoning as to why abortion is wrong.

I hate this friggin subject. But just to state my position, I think that abortion should remain legal and its morality will be worked out culturally in time.

 

I'm curious Asimov, you refer to people as anti-abortion. Does that make you pro-abortion? Can you tell me why abortion is right? Is it noble? Is something which should be aspired to? Is it something that one should be proud of?

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I contend that anti-abortion people have no valid reasoning as to why abortion is wrong.

I hate this friggin subject. But just to state my position, I think that abortion should remain legal and its morality will be worked out culturally in time.

 

I'm curious Asimov, you refer to people as anti-abortion. Does that make you pro-abortion? Can you tell me why abortion is right? Is it noble? Is something which should be aspired to? Is it something that one should be proud of?

 

I'm neither anti-abortion, nor pro-abortion.

 

I would state that abortion is amoral.

 

Worked out culturally?

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Worked out culturally?

There is no law against picking your nose in public. In fact, I'm almost sure it's legal, but it is frowned upon. That's not a very good analogy but it hints at what I'm getting at.

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Worked out culturally?

There is no law against picking your nose in public. In fact, I'm almost sure it's legal, but it is frowned upon. That's not a very good analogy but it hints at what I'm getting at.

 

Hahaha, perhaps. However that doesn't preclude discussion about it.

 

Picking your nose in public would be an amoral action.

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I think it's safe to say that the opinions on this issue vary greatly, within both christian and non-christian groups.

 

It's a sticky subject, but one that becomes a bit less sticky if you take religion out of the equation. Do I believe that life begins at conception? Probably not. Do I believe that life begins at birth? I think common sense says no.

 

IMHO I'd say a good place to draw the line would be the time when a fetus is viable and could live outside of its mother. Beyond that, yes I would say that you are killing a human being.

 

So I don't have to explain myself later, because I'd rather bow out of this discussion at this point, let me say that I don't believe in imposing my "morality" on others, especially not in grey areas such as this.

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I think it's safe to say that the opinions on this issue vary greatly, within both christian and non-christian groups.

 

It's a sticky subject, but one that becomes a bit less sticky if you take religion out of the equation. Do I believe that life begins at conception? Probably not. Do I believe that life begins at birth? I think common sense says no.

 

Hm. I would think that the life of a fertilized embryo begins at conception. The life of a baby would begin once it's born.

 

IMHO I'd say a good place to draw the line would be the time when a fetus is viable and could live outside of its mother. Beyond that, yes I would say that you are killing a human being.
I would say in all cases of abortion one is killing a human. I would also say that's irrelevant.

 

I would ask why you think it's a good place to draw the line.

 

So I don't have to explain myself later, because I'd rather bow out of this discussion at this point, let me say that I don't believe in imposing my "morality" on others, especially not in grey areas such as this.

 

Discussing it doesn't mean that you're imposing your "morality" on others, and there is nothing wrong with proposing ideas that you think are good ideas.

 

I'm interested in peoples viewpoints on it.

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Picking your nose in public would be an amoral action.

Yes, perhaps so. But I'm not sure that abortion can be properly called amoral. Why does it seem to prick the conscience of so many men and women?

 

No, I don't think abortion is amoral. It tests our morality I think. With whom will we try and empathize the most; those now living, or those yet to be born?

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Can you tell me why abortion is right?

 

Offspring is expensive. They tax your resources bodily (for a woman), mentally, and financially. Your life is NEVER the same. If the offspring is desired, then such changes are to be expected and welcomed. But if not....

 

The life and quality of life of the adult human is more important and takes precedent over that of the still parasitical unborn.

 

Even nature sets precedent. In famine, social animals (and I don't exclude humans....you want proof, I can give it in spades) have been known to either cannibalize their young, allow the young to die, or even mercy kill the young to spare them.

 

Is it noble?

It is a hard decision. Never one made lightly no matter what the anti-abortionists think. And Asimov is right to use that term instead of the nonsensical "pro-choice" vs "pro-life". Those terms are worse than inaccurate, they are downright moronic. Everyone is pro-life. Pro- choice isn't even the opposite of pro-life, that would be "pro-death" which is what people who embrace the term pro-life are really implying about people who believe differently.

 

Hard decisions, especially when made without the support of ones social group, are "noble" to those who agree with the decision made. They are called other things by those who disagree with the decision.

Is something which should be aspired to?

 

To make any decision that is in one's own best interest instead of following the "traditional" path shows courage, independence, personal strength, and healthy self-interest as opposed to following like a sheep even when you really don't want to out of fear of social repercussions.

Is it something that one should be proud of?

 

We are talking about a hard decision. Any time I've ever made a difficult decision (and no, I've never had to make that one), I felt more weary afterwards. An acceptance of the potential consequences. "Pride" didn't factor in.

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It sounds canned, but I really don't think we as a society have a right to force a woman to do something she doesn't want to do with her body.

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I would say in all cases of abortion one is killing a human. I would also say that's irrelevant.

I don't understand that at all. If you think abortion is the killing of a human being then how could that be irrelevant?

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Why does it seem to prick the conscience of so many men and women?

 

I don't know, why does gay marriage?

 

No, I don't think abortion is amoral. It tests our morality I think. With whom will we try and empathize the most; those now living, or those yet to be born?

 

Amoral means that the action is neutral as an ethical dilemma. It's neither right nor wrong. I don't see how your post indicates that abortion is amoral, so I thought I'd define it.

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I would say in all cases of abortion one is killing a human. I would also say that's irrelevant.

I don't understand that at all. If you think abortion is the killing of a human being then how could that be irrelevant?

 

Because I don't think it's inherently wrong to kill a human being.

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Because I don't think it's inherently wrong to kill a human being.

I interpret that to mean that there are circumstances under which it is appropriate to kill a fellow human and circumstances where it is wrong. If so then that's generally the same way I feel about abortion.

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I fall in the category of Pro-Choice. (And will most likly be choice no matter what the topic is at hand)

 

I suppose we can debate semantics of say abortion up to 3rd trimester to partial birth. One I fully support wile the other I fully oppose on a personal level. I have no desire to interject my personal views into legislation though.

 

I believe the debate should be taken out of government and that in free society's people are able to choose which is best for them.

 

As far as my personal reasons for supporting it, there are many.

 

I absolutely agree with it in any and all rape or incest cases.

 

I also don't believe a person should have to carry a lifetime responsibility as great as a child for a passionate moment of Oops.

 

I believe their are already to many unwanted children why create more?

 

I believe a women's body belongs to her solely, and it is her decision if she wishes to carry a child. .

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It is a hard decision. Never one made lightly no matter what the anti-abortionists think.

Ah gracious and fierce White Raven, I have little doubt that it is a hard decision. And I also think that the decision ultimately resides with women.

 

I still think it should remain legal, but the thought of women using abortion as a primary means of birth control sickens me.

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I still think it should remain legal, but the thought of women using abortion as a primary means of birth control sickens me.

 

That would be very foolish and irresponsible. That is a medical procedure, and things can go badly with any medical procedure.

 

All other birth control methods are cheaper too. Using abortion as a birth control method is physically irresponsible and financially dumb. Especially if something goes wrong and now you have to pay more medical bills as a result. If a woman is really this stupid.....then she REALLY shouldn't be having kids.

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If a woman is really this stupid.....then she REALLY shouldn't be having kids.

I had not thought of abortion as a selective pressure before. :scratch: Interesting. I wonder who gets the most abortions? I may have to look into that further. Clearly they are exerting a selective pressure on themselves.

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I used to be really Pro-Life, so much so that I could be a Pro-Life poster woman, long story. I was Pro-Life because of all the emotionalism and lies I was told concerning abortion without questioning or checking the facts. The Pro-Life side is based on lies. If they told the truth, not too many people would be Pro-Life. That's why I'm now Pro-Choice.

 

Here's some un re-written Christian history. When the Comstock laws were passed making birthcontrol information between a woman and her doctor illegal, Christians were outraged that abortion was not legal any longer because they believed that life begins at quickening.

A lot of the reason abortion became illegal in the 19th was because immigrants had so many children and "native" anglo-saxon women didn't.

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Because I don't think it's inherently wrong to kill a human being.

I interpret that to mean that there are circumstances under which it is appropriate to kill a fellow human and circumstances where it is wrong. If so then that's generally the same way I feel about abortion.

 

Yes, I do mean that there are circumstances under which it is moral to kill a human, circumstances where it is amoral to kill a human, and circumstances where it is immoral to kill a human.

 

I think all instances of abortion are amoral. Including third trimester abortions.

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Yes, I do mean that there are circumstances under which it is moral to kill a human, circumstances where it is amoral to kill a human, and circumstances where it is immoral to kill a human.

I agree with this with one exception where I'd appreciate some clarification. I understand what amoral means. However I am having a difficult time imagining circumstances under which it is amoral to kill another human being. Can you provide me with an example of such circumstances?

 

I think all instances of abortion are amoral. Including third trimester abortions.

If, as you have said, abortion is the killing of a human being then why wouldn't it also be true that there are circumstances where abortion is moral, amoral, and immoral?

 

I think that I need to give this subject some more thought. Politics is about shoulds. And I once heard a woman say that it's the shoulds you should watch out for. Something here is disquieting me, but I have yet to put my finger on it.

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