velocitychild Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Honestly I just feel more content with knowledge that can be proven. Any truths out there that don't pass the test of reality seem to be false truths. I don't want to believe a lie.. It's weird but.. I've never felt really content believing in something that I can't prove. If I cant prove it to myself, then faith is pointless. I'd rather know the truth and be content with it then to cling on to a delusion that may be even hurting other people. No no no thanks... So if you had the chance to know the truth about reality, the ultimate truth, but was warned that some might find it horrific would you do it? Or would you say "no thanks" and live a lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Its kind of like the Matrix in a since. Do you want to continue living happy or know the truth? However ironically in the end I became angry with religion and whatnot and I would rather have it exposed to the world. The church is like that in many ways and so is the Bible. People have a false since of the church,the Bible, and the pastors. The Church as a dark past on how it was formed and what they did...yet it is forgotten. The Bible teaches intolerance and hate like so many Christians think that Islam does yet it is vise versa. Its in the Bible yet it is not read from in church those sections, if it is they jusify it some absurd way. I would rather have the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 For me, the question is moot. If I had faith -- 100 percent certainty -- in a religious doctrine, I wouldn't be at all concerned with proof; I'd be like some of our fundie visitors who declare, in effect, that "I'm right. You're Wrong. End of Argument." And I can certainly see how comforting it would be to be in that state of mind. But, I couldn't force myself to have faith no matter how hard I tried to because, like you, I couldn't be content simply "believing" in something when all the time I was being bombarded by doubts. I don't see belief or faith as being a choice and I am still perplexed by christians who claim it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I'd rather take the red pill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Let me rephrase this thread (In his left hand, shows a blue pill.) You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You will continue to believe blindly in your religion. This forum, website will never exist and no doubt's in your mind. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. You will learn the past of Christianity and it may lead to doubt and uncertaintly but overall you will free from the cult that is within Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Red pills and rabbit holes for me, please. (scarfs down a handful of cinnamon hearts) I question the wisdom of thinking that one could be genuinely happy if one *knew* one was living a lie. Once the blinders come off and the illusions crumble, truth is the only thing that remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Yeah, I'll take the red pill too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Is it cherry flavored? And what do you do if you're color blind and can't see the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Is it cherry flavored? Maybe it's cinnamon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Why does it have to be red and blue? Is it some kind of a political campaign? Can I chose between yellow and green instead? Who makes these pills? Is it a corporation - part of the conspiracy - and by taking the pill they will brainwash me and make me believe I see the truth while it's just another lie - a lie within a lie? Or ... (after a while someone will probably shoot me, and my questions will be over. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Hans maybe you should stay away from all the pills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Oh, my pills are white... what does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Oh, my pills are white... what does that mean? That means you will reside in an epistemological limbo, knowing neither truth nor lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Realistically, there are memes that we live with daily that we would likely crumble without. I'm guessing that a few of these memes we can deal without, and that some of them are harmful, but how long is it before we find these other memes that we've either deemed necessary subconsciously, or have yet to realize as such, superfluous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramen666 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Just for Han Solo The Yellow pills represents waking up blah blah this never happend and all is forgotten The Green pill represents how far the rabbit hole goes and whatnot..... Hope Han likes that now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I don't know why, but the title of this thread reminded me of Jack Nicholson. You want the truth? YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! Okay, Jack. I want the truth. Plain and simple. And, I can handle it. I'm a big boy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Oh, my pills are white... what does that mean? That means you will reside in an epistemological limbo, knowing neither truth nor lies. I thought it meant my soul is white as snow... Aaargh! No, not the religious symbols!!! They're eating my alive! Btw, I was never good with Limbo, but heck I wouldn't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Hope Han likes that now Greeeeeeen! Me like green pill. Me want green pill. Can I? Can I??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I know I used to be happy believing lies, but then again, I didn't realize they were lies. The problem is that with fervent Xians, for example, they think that they are believing the truth. They don't know that the religion they have such faith in is wrong. They think they are placing completely warranted trust and belief in something that is time-tested and easily proven true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I know I used to be happy believing lies, but then again, I didn't realize they were lies. The problem is that with fervent Xians, for example, they think that they are believing the truth. They don't know that the religion they have such faith in is wrong. They think they are placing completely warranted trust and belief in something that is time-tested and easily proven true. Exactly. Knowing what I know now, if there were some pill or procedure that would instantly turn me into a absolutely doubt-free fundie who was happy and secure in my sure knowledge of salvation, I would NOT take it because I don't want to be deluded and I'm just vain enough to be proud of my intelligence and skepticism. BUT, if I were already a happy, 100%-heaven-sure fundie and heard about some pill or procedure that would cause me to lose faith and replace it with rational thinking, I would not take it. It would be much more pleasant - and easier - to live out my life in a happy la-la land. Then, there's that third state, the one I assume most current ex-christians were in before their deconversion, where faith is mixed with doubt. If I were in this state, I think I'd opt for the truth pill. But, for other individuals, I suppose the choice would depend on which is in greater proportion, faith or doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 So if you had the chance to know the truth about reality, the ultimate truth, but was warned that some might find it horrific would you do it? Or would you say "no thanks" and live a lie? I have a thousand things I want to say to this, but I have very little time right now. The truth of existence is terrifying to everyone, that's why we created religion, to help us deal with that terrible realization. The truth is there is no truth. Yet we create it to function and become dependent on it to survive... and so forth. Too many thoughts, too little time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 The truth is there is no truth. I don’t know where you may be going with this Antlerman. But I feel that I must humbly disagree with you at this point my esteemed ex-brethren. The way I see it, the fact that we can sometimes accurately predict events is an indiction that truth or truths exists. If it were the case that accurate prediction was always impossible then I might be more inclined to agree with you. We all act with a certain measure of anticipation however. We know there are consequences. Even our emotions bear witness to our constant, and often successful, efforts to predict. I would venture to guess that most of us don’t go around in a perpetual state of surprise and disappointment for example. It seems to me that these emotions mainly arise when events fail to match our predictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 The truth is there is no truth. I don’t know where you may be going with this Antlerman. But I feel that I must humbly disagree with you at this point my esteemed ex-brethren. The way I see it, the fact that we can sometimes accurately predict events is an indiction that truth or truths exists. If it were the case that accurate prediction was always impossible then I might be more inclined to agree with you. We all act with a certain measure of anticipation however. We know there are consequences. Even our emotions bear witness to our constant, and often successful, efforts to predict. I would venture to guess that most of us don’t go around in a perpetual state of surprise and disappointment for example. It seems to me that these emotions mainly arise when events fail to match our predictions. Yes, I agree with your comments about predictablity and anticipation. What my parodoxical statement is in response to is the idea of absolute, or ultimate truth. I will tend to use the language of "degrees of certainty" or probability when it comes to taking about "truth", even though I still use that word, tainted as it is with the history of abosolutist thought. Truths are our touchstones so to speak, but those truths can change. People will often look to things like matematics as proving the existence of absolutes, but even Albert Einstein recongized the limits of how far it can go. I love this quote from him, ""Insofar as mathematics is exact, it does not apply to reality; and insofar as mathematics applies to reality, it is not exact." When we move into something far more abstract and less clearly defined like human emotions, moralities, choices, etc the idea of "Truth" with a capital T seems absurd. There are truths that we can agree on, but they are not something static. But I do agree with the intent of what the OP expresses that he desires his choices to be based on something more credible, something with evidences and stronger support, then adopting a "you just have to accept it as true. Goddit, and that settles it," kind of approach. I share that same desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 As my daddy used to say: "Ignorance is bliss and patience is a virtue... so if your stupid and don't mind waiting around alot, you can have a pretty good life". Personally, I can't stand deception (internal or otherwise). So even if it's more difficult to know the truth, I'd rather have that over a comfortable lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I know I used to be happy believing lies, but then again, I didn't realize they were lies. The problem is that with fervent Xians, for example, they think that they are believing the truth. They don't know that the religion they have such faith in is wrong. They think they are placing completely warranted trust and belief in something that is time-tested and easily proven true. Exactly. Knowing what I know now, if there were some pill or procedure that would instantly turn me into a absolutely doubt-free fundie who was happy and secure in my sure knowledge of salvation, I would NOT take it because I don't want to be deluded and I'm just vain enough to be proud of my intelligence and skepticism. BUT, if I were already a happy, 100%-heaven-sure fundie and heard about some pill or procedure that would cause me to lose faith and replace it with rational thinking, I would not take it. It would be much more pleasant - and easier - to live out my life in a happy la-la land. Then, there's that third state, the one I assume most current ex-christians were in before their deconversion, where faith is mixed with doubt. If I were in this state, I think I'd opt for the truth pill. But, for other individuals, I suppose the choice would depend on which is in greater proportion, faith or doubt. I'm having this thought I'm going to put out there. To say, "I was happy believing in lies", is this really what we were doing? I never believed in lies. They were truth to me. Most people don't really choose to believe in something they know is false. And this makes the point I was thinking of. What changed was our ideas of truth; what we called truth. You said as a fundi happy and secure in your belief, you would not take something that would take away something that served as truth for you. You likewise today would not take a pill that would take away how you see the world, what is true to you now, because of the same reasons - something that holds the position of truth in your life would be replaced with something that was artificial and an improper fit to who you are and how you think today. If you were in the state of doubt, and I will suggest doubt either for or against a God, and someone offered you a pill to settle the issue in your mind you would take it. I suggest the reason you would take it is because we need something to act as truth for us. Being totally ambivalent on highly important emotional issues for us is a conflict needing resolution. Which way you would choose to go, would likely be where you were already leaning, what was most important to you. Christianity is a truth for some people, as it was for most of us at one point. What changed was me. As I grew the shoe no longer fit. But is a size 5 shoe a lie, when you have a size 11 foot? It seems that the question should be "does it work, or does it fit?" Christianty did work for the most part for me back then, but as I grew it began to work less and less till it no longer fit. If someone tries to talk about science to a scientist and points to the book of Genesis as having something to say to that, then that doesn't work. But if someone is reading Genesis as pure allegory, then is that a lie, or something that either works or doesn't work for someone depending on who they are and what they're trying to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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