Should I Meet With My Ex Preacher?

[Mikefight]

I had lunch yesterday with the pastor of the church I used to attend. This was the second time since my "awakening." He was asking me why I had changed. I explained the reasons to him. He had some arguments about evolution that were totally wrong. I explained it to him in the greatest detail I could based on what I had read. It was like talking to a three year old. Every time I explained something he would ask why, why, why but why. When it got to the limit of my knowledge he seemed to think he had made a point.

 

He said, "See you don't know, you have put faith in these scientist."

I said, "They are experts in their field, would you argue biology with a biologist. I can't explain it down to the last detail but they could, and you could look the information up if you really wanted to know."

 

His thinking was you have to put faith in something, science or God. I guess when someone has data that is contradicting your belief system you can just say you don't trust them, All of them. Sounds like blind faith to me. He keeps going back to the fact that matter could not just form from nothing. Guess that is the last resort. I used to use that argument.

 

Then again he believes men and dinosaurs lived at the same time.

 

Anyway, I hope I can show him the truth, but I doubt it. My wife and kids still go to that church.

 

Should I continue to meet with him or is it just a waste of time?

[neverclear5]

He keeps going back to the fact that matter could not just form from nothing. Guess that is the last resort. I used to use that argument.

 

Matter can form out of nothing but energy. In particle physics we use accelerators to destroy matter and it becomes energy, which then forms into matter and anti matter. Matter and energy are interchangable, thats what happens when you burn something. It's a chemical reaction but that means nothing, you weigh the components going in (including the gases) and you weight the components coming out (again, including the gases) and there is a difference. The difference is the amount of matter that was converted to energy.

 

And, on the subject if he asks about the energy, energy can never be created or destrpyed. There is the same amount of energy in the universe that there has always been and will always be. All you do is convert it. In the power plant chemical energy gets converted into heat (burn stuff) which becomes kinetic energy (movement, the water turns to steam and rises, turning turbines) which gets converted into electrical current (coil of wire attached to turbine turns in a magnetic field). Some may get lost along the way heating things or as sound etc. but none is made and none is destroyed.

[Dave]

He said, "See you don't know, you have put faith in these scientist."

I said, "They are experts in their field, would you argue biology with a biologist. I can't explain it down to the last detail but they could, and you could look the information up if you really wanted to know."

Also point out that it is a different kind of "faith". In religion it is a blind faith only backed by emotions. In science is is a faith backed by facts and knowledge.

.... He keeps going back to the fact that matter could not just form from nothing. Guess that is the last resort. I used to use that argument.

Then explain that "ex nihilo" or "out of nothing" is a religious belief. The claim is their god made all of this out of nothing.

Then again he believes men and dinosaurs lived at the same time.

They did and the Flintstones Documentary was based on that fact.

Should I continue to meet with him or is it just a waste of time?

Maybe you can deconvert him.

[xild]

Look Mike, I can't help you with arguing with a Fundamentalist, if that's what he is, and that's what it sounds like, but I can tell you that arguing with him, or even opening yourself up to discussions with him is not a good idea, not for a long long time.

 

Don't underestimate what it is you are doing by leaving the church. I hope that by your example you can get your wife to join you. You don't need any other reason except your perogative to use your god-given critical thinking ability and chances are you don't have that ability completely back quite yet, depending upon how long you've been in the church and how long you've been out. It took me years to even identify that critical thinking was the key, and then years more to develop that ability for myself again.

 

Go back to secular college; take up some courses that interest you--evolution or biology even, if it interests you--but do something that will excercise your mind.

 

Tell your pastor to come on into these forums and let the people in here have at him. Heh.

 

Seriously, I don't think there's any point in holding discussions with these leaders--they're indoctrinators, they're dangerous to you and your family. They would tear your family apart, they would. Again, I consider this man the outright enemy. Avoid him like the plague and treat him like an enemy, a destroyer.

 

If the pastor asks to talk to you again, just tell him you're done. Period, end of discussion, then hang up the phone. Don't let him get to you with loving words--I'm reading a book right now on how they train pastors and soulwinners to act, very dramatically and seemingly sincere, and believe me, it's all a very calculated act designed to keep you in the faith, so to speak. Don't suffer their manipulation and control over your life. It's yours; your God-given gift, if you believe in God.

[white_raven23]

It was like talking to a three year old. Every time I explained something he would ask why, why, why but why. When it got to the limit of my knowledge he seemed to think he had made a point.

 

He said, "See you don't know, you have put faith in these scientist."

I said, "They are experts in their field, would you argue biology with a biologist. I can't explain it down to the last detail but they could, and you could look the information up if you really wanted to know."

 

 

You fell for the "Why" tactic.

 

You could put this guy in a room with the most brilliant person on the planet. All he has to do is keep asking "why" expending no effort, or knowledge on his own. Even the smartest person in the world doesn't know everything, and that is what the "why" tactic centers on the very fact that we ourselves are not gods, and so eventually once they get to the ONE question you can't answer...they "have" you!

 

Here he is just blithely asking "why" and waiting for you to run down. Instead of acknowledging the truth of what you know, they just ask another question. And they keep doing it....never admitting that you know a lot more than they do, they don't even really have to listen to your answers! They just have to tune in enough to formulate their next "penetrating" seeming question.

 

You said yourself it was like talking to a three year old. That is why.

 

You aren't making headway with this guy. He's just keeping you talking until you tire out, and then he's got room to sermonize you while you are too worn out for rebuttal.

 

He's really not absorbing the truth or rationality of your responses, he's just waiting for you to run out of steam.

 

I tried to find a good tactic foor dealing with that method of argument, but I wasn't successful. Perhaps one of our fabulous fellow members may have more luck (I'd like to see that resource too).

[Taphophilia]

I tried to find a good tactic foor dealing with that method of argument, but I wasn't successful. Perhaps one of our fabulous fellow members may have more luck (I'd like to see that resource too).

 

I like what Mikeflight said:

 

"You could look up the information, if you really wanted to know."

[Piprus]

Anyway, I hope I can show him the truth, but I doubt it. My wife and kids still go to that church.

 

Should I continue to meet with him or is it just a waste of time?

 

Mike, this guy's a professional clergyman. His purpose is not discussion or a mutually respectful sharing of thoughts, he's not interested in reasoning with you except for the purpose of convincing you you're wrong. Hell, as you've said he already believes humans and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time, which is patently false.

 

What good purpose could possibly come from further meetings with him? He doesn't want to come around to your enlightened point of view, because it would derail his profession.

 

If it were me, I would simply brush him off politely, and say there does not appear to be a mutually acceptable goal to further discussion.

[Ouroboros]

Should I Meet With My Ex Preacher?

No. There's no use. But it's your choice.

 

Is it a waste of time?

Yes.

 

When it got to the limit of my knowledge he seemed to think he had made a point.

Of course. Because he doesn't have a real argument against it. So he just trying to play "hide-n-seek". If he countered you arguments with valid counter arguments, he know he would lose.

 

He said, "See you don't know, you have put faith in these scientist."

So has he. Every time he sits in a car, flies in an airplane. Brew coffee. Take medicine or just vitamins. Turn on the TV. Vote for Bush to start a war against another country because they have weapons made by scientists. Iraq wouldn't be a threat to this pastor if he didn't believe the power of science.

 

He keeps going back to the fact that matter could not just form from nothing. Guess that is the last resort. I used to use that argument.

Why not? And who said from nothing? Big Bang doesn't say from nothing, but from singularity. The one that believes "creation" from nothing is the one that proposed "Ex Nihilo":

Ex nihilo is a Latin term meaning "out of nothing". It is often used in conjunction with the term creation, as in creatio ex nihilo, meaning "creation out of nothing". Due to the nature this term, it is often used in philosophical or creationistic arguments, as conservative Christians, Muslims and Jews believe that God created the universe from nothing.

 

So if he doesn't believe matter can be created or formed from nothing, then he should believe in Creationism, i.e. he's the one believing what he claims can't be done, while you don't.

 

Then again he believes men and dinosaurs lived at the same time.

The Bible doesn't say so, so why does he believe that? (Maybe he took that from the very accurate documentary from the time? It's called Family Flintstone. Check it out, humans and dinosaurs together, so I guess it must be true.)

 

Anyway, I hope I can show him the truth, but I doubt it.

Correct. His whole reputation and pride is tied into his belief. It's one thing to debate with another regular person that doesn't have a gain from religion, and something else to debate with a person that could lose his whole lifestyle and face. You're not only up against irrational belief, but your up against greed and selfishness. Even if he wants to let go, he can't, so he must fight on.

 

Should I continue to meet with him or is it just a waste of time?

Utterly waste of time. You can't (de)convert him. It has to come from his own realization, but since he's probably a bit older, he won't change his life over some unanswered questions. He's stuck in the mud, deep down, and still digging his hole deeper.

[crazy-tiger]

I tried to find a good tactic foor dealing with that method of argument, but I wasn't successful. Perhaps one of our fabulous fellow members may have more luck (I'd like to see that resource too).

I turn it around on them... if they seriously are just hitting out with the "why" tactic, I just say something like "because it's daylight/friday morning/coffee... or something equally irrelevant.

 

That lets them know that you've seen through their tactic and you're not playing anymore...

 

 

Last time someone tried it on me, I called them by my nephew's name... when they asked why I'd done that, I just said "I thought I was talking to him..." (at the time he was 2 1/2 and his favourite word was "why?")

 

 

 

 

Of course, you could always just let it keep going for almost as long as you have the energy, then when they think they've got you and start preaching, start asking them "why?"

 

The speed they hit a dead-end is impressive...

[xild]

I hope it's okay if I tell this little story in Mike's thread, and only because it was my one and only experience of dealing with a pastor as an ex-Christian.

 

After I worked my family through the trauma of dealing my youngest sister's rape, I kept in touch with her as she was suicidal and all messed up and one of the stories she happened to relate to me was that she had recently been standing, in her senior year in the church school, on the church grounds with a group of her girlfriends, when the youth pastor walked up to them and told them they were all behaving like sluts. His exact words, I checked with her. Well, I made it off the phone with her but internally I was going ballistic, and ended up getting in my car and driving to the church grounds for the first time in a long time. I went to the youth pastor's parsonage and banged on his door, then called him from my car phone (yes, we had car phones then). He scheduled to meet with me the next day after morning church services, not knowing who the hell I was. I did tell him my name and that I was A's sister--he probably thought he would be doing some soulwinning with me.

 

I didn't go in there alone that next day. I took a bodyguard. A big no nonsense one and I told him beforehand not to do anything unless this guy prevented me from saying what I had to say or in any other way laid a hand on me. I had to walk past members of my own family who were attending church that morning, and these people hadn't seen me in years, so it wasn't easy but I made my way to the church basement and into his office.

 

There were a few rows of folding chairs lined up in front of this guy's desk and my friend took a seat behind me. I sat right up front and introduced myself and in a very matter of fact way let this guy know that he was to leave my sister alone for the rest of her senior year (after that I knew she would be free of him). He was not to bother her, not even to speak to her unless absolutely necessary and then only in utterly respectful manner, as if he were speaking to the pastor himself.

 

I told him that I learned he had called my sister a slut. It was at that point he denied it. I told him not to lie. I grew up in that church before he was even there and I knew he had indeed said what she said he had. At one point he started waving his Bible at me, you know how they do that. I very forcefully told him, "Put the Bible down." And people, I kid you not--it was so satisfying--nothing in that church before or since has ever felt so good--the minute I said that he dropped it down onto his desk with a thump.

 

I let him know, in case he didn't already, that my sister had recently been raped, and I intended to protect her from whatever harm he would inevitably inflict upon her while she was in a very fragile place, and I wasn't kidding around about it.

 

I told him also, that he was not to confide in my parents what I was discussing with him. Nothing. If I found out that he told them anything about this conversation I would be back, with the media, and with "friends." Now I don't know what my friend behind me was doing. He said nothing but sitting there quietly. But this pastor never told my parents anything. He never spoke to my sister the rest of the year either. This enabled my family to at least keep her alive, without the "help" of the church--because I knew where they would take what had happened to her.

 

My parents and other family were waiting for me when I came out of his office and I don't know how I did it but I smiled and introduced them to my friend. They were so confused and good thing they were because I was able to avoid their questions with a simple, "I just had some things I needed to speak with Pastor such and such about." They just didn't know what to say. They never know how to deal with me anyway.

 

I do have a point in telling this story. I think it is that I don't discount the threat that fundamentalists pose to family and to fragile people. What had happened to my sister was certainly bad enough, but as I had experienced at her age the same -- almost the same exact thing -- I knew that the church would make it even worse and I knew I had to protect her. My knowing how dangerous they were made me feel all the more responsible for my little, confused and scared sister. Being big and tough was the least I could do for her.

 

I was really scared for my sister and really angry when I went in there. I've not done anything like this ever since. I can hardly believe the guy didn't make a big stink about it with my entire family, including aunts and uncles who constitute big membership in the big church there, but he said nothing. That he really did leave her alone as I required makes me think that strong arm tactics are the only thing these people understand. I don't know.

[xild]

I have never heard of the childish "why why why" ploy being some kind of actual ... strategy to win an argument. This just isn't a one time thing that happened to Mike; it's something they are now doing???

[Dave]

I have never heard of the childish "why why why" ploy being some kind of actual ... strategy to win an argument. This just isn't a one time thing that happened to Mike; it's something they are now doing???

I've seen the "why" strategy. I just turn it back on them and for every thing they claim I just ask why. Pretty soon they get tired of it and I just say; "It's turtles all the way down, huh?" They demand answers to the "why" of science, but cannot answer the "why" of their religion.

[Lycorth]

I'd say to only meet with your pastor if you're ready for one hell of an engagement, since it will always come to why you don't believe. If you insist on meeting with this guy, be prepared ahead of time with all the best criticisms against Xianity and stick to them.

 

His one mission is to get you, a "lost sheep", back into the fold. That's all he's interested in doing. You need to show him why you left the fold and why you won't return - and that nothing he says is without holes in it.

 

Or else just go on with your life and leave him to his. Talks like these can be stressful and generally are.